Holiday Bones, Norman Style

[Battlefront.com]

Ron,

What kind of discussions are those GSX? Nutters saying CMSF will be 'abandoned' just like CMBO and CMBB and CMAK were 'abandoned'; 20+ patches worth of abandoned but oh no(!) now that is evidence BFC hoisted a lemon on the unsuspecting, loyal CMx1 fanbase. Nutters insisting CMBB/CMAK were unfinished. Nutters continuing to insist CMSF doesn't have a feature when it is patently shown otherwise, even with pictures for the contextually impaired. Nutters who find it offensive the side Steve parts his hair on...

Which is the way it was a year ago when I last checked in. Seems either you (and a lot of other people) are spot on, or you're brainless fan bois, brown nosing your way up my butt. Just those two options since there's no way that you, sfhand, and countless others could POSSIBLY have a point worth consideration by GSX since everything is apparently all peaches and cream over there.

Yeah it is the same handful of rotten apples, over and over grinding the same axe. I agree there have been some good discussions at times, but to wade through the vitriol...

This is my primary point and it's the one that GSX doesn't seem to grasp. I used to read that Forum (for a long time before CM:SF was released, BTW) and a few others to see what people were saying that they felt they couldn't say here for whatever reason. It became clear that the primary reason they weren't posting here is because they couldn't be civil or objective, two of the few rules we have here. Since we have those rules to keep things productive, a place that doesn't have such rules is unproductive by definition when those types show up. Since a half dozen such warped individuals were making about 90% of the posts, and they chased off anybody who tried to post something to the contrary, it clearly wasn't worth my time to read. Not really worth my time pointing out the obvious about GS either, but every once and a while it becomes temporarily necessary. Usually when GSX drops a bomb and runs away

Steve

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Reading the GS forums have led me to understand how people can end up flying planes in to buildings, I kid you not. Oh, I knew the theory of radicalization, but never saw such a clear example off that.

Isolated from contrary views, the angry back and forth of like-minded people creates a ramping up of the intensity and the abnormal turns in to the norm and suddenly what should've been batshine crazy isn't viewed as such any longer.

I consider the GS a good place to visit if you are too responsible to go gawping at a car crash but want to get your jollies in another way. I visit there about once a week or when BFC drop a bone, just to see what the crazies come up with next.

[Gromit]

In light of all the grognardiness here as of late:

The following is a response I wrote over at Out of the Park Developments Forum in response to a poster berating Markus and his company of three others (two of which don't program) for "abandoning" their baseball game OOTP10 in September and moving on to next year's version 11 before all the bugs were worked out to his liking.

If I have learned anything, it's that no matter where you go, who you work for, etc. Life's 10%ers will always be there to line up and tell you what you are doing wrong and how you should be doing it.

Unfortunately, there is no "free lunch" in life. Everything, and I

do

mean

everything

has a cost attached to it. Making a great baseball simulation is no different. Oh, I'd love for Markus and Co. to be able to fix all the issues that keep OOTP10 from being a top notch game. But if we put aside our personal bias and look at the situation from a rational point-of-view, it's not a viable option for them.

You want something?- then you're gonna have to give something else up. i.e.,

Equilibrium

Sure, if Donald Trump was focused on creating the perfect baseball sim, with his budget and the right team and time (Money, Manpower and Time), anything is possible. But our buddy Don isn't interested in baseball that much- neither is anyone else with that much venture capital. Not to mention the fact that none of them got where they are today by investing in things that provide low ROI (return on investment).

So, here we are with Markus. He's just one guy in the world (with a few partners) that loves baseball. He doesn't have a huge budget. Just a passion for the game and a talent for programming.

His company

needs

the income from each new release of OOTP just to pay the salaries, bills, etc. that keep it a going concern. That means they have to make a decision on when to stop working on the current release and start developing the next one. Working on patches is a huge time and money sink. You soon run into the law of diminishing returns and would run out of capital to even make the next release if taken too far.

Well, I suppose we could rely on the Electronic Arts of the world to provide said "Baseball Sim". Hmmm, based on

these

reviews along with

these

, I'd have to say that they are moving in the wrong direction and their efforts lately have been pathetic. I think we all know why. EA and their ilk are game factories for the most part. There are exceptions, such as Bioware, but most projected borderline profitable games are on a very tight leash when it comes to budget, development time and resources. I'd almost say they are destined to fail given the state of affairs at the majority of SW development houses these days.

It's easy to say that our little community, and we

are little

in the great scheme of things guys, deserves a game that is feature rich and support that fixes known issues and bugs. But that is a naive view to take in light of the market baseball sims represent.

As Blind Pew said to Captain Billy Bones:

"Business is business, Mr. Bones."

While I don't care for some of the decisions that Markus has made concerning OOTP, he has done enough over the years to earn my trust. If that means supporting him with each release, then that's what I will do. Honestly guys... how many other choices are there? How long do you think you will wait for another PC baseball sim developer to come along and make a worthy game?

(OK, OK!... 10 cents!)

Sound familiar? Small company, niche market, limited budget. Yet, the way some folks act, you would think none of those constraints exist. Substitute Battlefront and change the game subject and it still rings true. Something our grognardish friends can't seem to grasp, no matter what facts you point their way.

As I have pointed out in a post a few months ago here, I don't consider BF to be perfect, nor do I care for some of their decisions in the past decade. But, you know what? Just cause they provide this forum and it lets me remain anonymous doesn't mean I should use it as a bully pulpit and flood the board with unconstructive comments and criticism. So maybe they don't always tell us the truth about everything. Oh, there's a shock! Doing business even in the best of situations is a grind that requires tough choices and stressful schedules. Hey, it's their baby... have a little respect for their intelligence. They have been doing this for over a decade now in a PC gaming environment that is practically non-existant compared to 1999.

Cut 'em some slack, eh? Besides, like quote above says- honestly, how many other choices are there for this genre? How long are you gonna wait until another Battlefront comes along? As a friend of mine is fond of saying, there'll be trees the size of sequoias over our graves before it happens.

Quit your bitchin and be thankful they're still around my friends.

[Battlefront.com]

Heh... good examples of the mindset problems being unrelated to us. Radicalization, as Elmar puts it, exists everywhere. People who are wired a certain way basically can't help themselves. And I find that I piss off the radicalized types no matter where I go no matter how carefully I tread. Which is reassuring, because if I'm not despised by that type then I'd worry that perhaps I was going nuts myself

In the end it is just a game. The radical elements over at GS prove that they are out of touch with reality. Normal, well adjusted people with lives full of meaning wouldn't spend more than a couple of posts berating a game they didn't like. People who aren't are the types that spend thousands of hours over many years obsessing about something they don't like and have no control over. Which is the fun part... the nutters over at GS have zero impact on our decision making. So while they post and post and post their lives away the truth is they are completely irrelevant because they aren't saying anything that's worth listening to. Or at least not saying anything of value that someone else hasn't already said.

Steve

[Scipio]

Well, I know my question is completly of topic now and rather unimportant, but I just wonder each time why you (who ever is responsible) have turned of FSAA when you make screenshots...:confused:

[Lanzfeld]

You are the one who does not alloow the kind of discussions that are had at GS. Namely, open criticism where its due. Questioning aspects of your game.

This is really not true. I can think of no better example of this then the "FOW trenches" thread. Look it up. The initial answer was no. We all brought up points and discussed the topic and now we have a great little stocking stuffer: FOW trenches is a yes.

We gave "open criticism where it was due". They listened to us "questioning aspects" of the game. Now we all win.

[MarkEzra]

Nutters who find it offensive the side Steve parts his hair on...

Watch who you're calling a "Nutter"...All Real CM Players know that Steve parts his hair right down the middle...That is proof positive that CMN is BFC's last gasp before bankruptcy

So Let's all shout it out...Gimmie a "B"...an "A".....

[Moon]

Sound familiar? Small company, niche market, limited budget.

Heh, even more than that. OOTP is using eLicense as well and that's in fact how we learned about it: I have OOTP and was impressed with how simple and user friendly it was, e.g. how I was able relicense the game a couple of years after I bought it - with just one click.

[MikeyD]

Gee, no mention yet about how the Jpz IV in the screenshot has the early muzzle brake, two hull mg firing ports, and spare track mount on the forward bow! As armor grogs go, you're a sorry lot. Simply out of practice discussing WWII minutia, I suppose

[Kwazydog]

This is really not true. I can think of no better example of this then the "FOW trenches" thread. Look it up. The initial answer was no.

Great example which Im sure will be conviently ignored Lanzfeld, thatd the usual game plan.

GSX knows very well that polite open discussions are welcome here and there are many examples if this. Its rude, trolling and disrespectful personalities that are not welcome and never have been, even since the cmbo days.

Dan

[Sixxkiller]

Watch who you're calling a "Nutter"...All Real CM Players know that Steve parts his hair right down the middle...That is proof positive that CMN is BFC's last gasp before bankruptcy

So Let's all shout it out...Gimmie a "B"...an "A".....

Ahem, I have bigger boobs than they do. Give me a B....give me a F....

[Sixxkiller]

OOTP is a fantastic example of companies that you should support. I am a stat grog and they really do it better than the big boys do. I think BFC has a bigger shoestring to budget with but hopefully OOTP will catch up someday.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

Why are you complaining about muzzle brakes when there are more fundamental issues, such as the apparent SdKfz 222 armored car end on behind the Jagdpanzer IV? At first, I thought the Jagdpanzer IV had some bizarre cupola, until I looked at the pic more closely. Was so overwhelmed by the Marder and the Jagdpanzer IV initially, that I didn't even notice anything else.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

Yeh, that's the sort of 'armor grog" response I was lookin' for!

[tooz]

Well, I just hope that CM2 Normandy comes out soon and helps me forget CM 1. CMSF just never did anything for me.

[Sixxkiller]

Well, I just hope that CM2 Normandy comes out soon and helps me forget CM 1. CMSF just never did anything for me.

Oh the site failed to inform you that players in Wisconsin get a 10 year delay for not being Wolverine fans.

[Vark]

Am I looking at the same GameSquad page as poster here? I'd never been to the site until the link provided a couple of pages ago, but equating some of the posters there with Jihadist fundamentalists because they are negative to BFSF!!! A sense of objectivity is why I visit these pages, smearing dissenting voices risks you becoming the monster you so obviously loathe. All I got from wasting thirty minutes of my life at GS's CM section was a under-current of betrayal and resentment, which if certain words were replaced, in the postings, could have come from an agony aunts column about the feelings of a rejected partner/lover.

It seems to me that CM emotionally affected some people far more than they would admit and they believed, as loyal supporters, that there opinions would not only be listened too, but acted upon. When BF decided on SF and rejected 'their game', note the words used in many threads such as "abandoned", some seem to have have gone into the classic Kubler-Ross five stages of grief and for some they have not got passed the anger stage. Others are convinced that they have power and influence and that secretly one day Steve will be 'theirs again", a classic case of delusional thinking. This is why any rational debate about company growth, new ventures etc fall on deaf ears, you here talk about matters of the head, they still are locked into matters of the heart.

If this were some cheesy Hollywood schlockbuster, Steve would confront Michael, and all the other bitter posters at GS and have a tearful hugging session, whilst explaining, through racking sobs about "how I didn't realise how much I'd hurt you, man!". Rejuvenated by this touching display of new-age manliness and fired up by a sense of Obamanian, yes we can, the group would walk into the sunset ready to be one again!! Face it Steve you created a bunch of groupies, now they are scorned groupies. Did you ever see "Play Misty for me?"

[MikeyD]

Oh, man you got a big laugh out of me. Suffering from the bitter ex girlfriend syndrome. What's that old saying, the opposite of love is not hate, the opposite of love is indifference. And these guys are hating the game a little bit too much.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

...equating some of the posters there with Jihadist fundamentalists because they are negative to BFSF!!!

I did no such thing. Read again. I made the observation about the process of radicalisation observed among the more deranged. I was NOT making a direct comparison between the bashers and Jihadis.

Being negative towards CMSF/BFC is not a qualifier for being in the category of aforementioned nutters. It takes a whole lot more then being being critical. I've read GS for about a year or so now and have been in "discussion" with most of these same people over at Gyrene's Annex. It takes more then thirty minutes to get a complete picture of the lengths these people go to. They've been at this bashing for neigh on three years now, and said some pretty awful and absurd things over that span.

You miss some of the backstory of the main participants and their actions.

They like to portray themselves as victims but are very uncritical of their own behaviour which, it has been my personal displeasure to experience, is typically far far worse.

[Dietrich]

This thread just goes to show how emotional folks are about WW2, especially when it comes to CM.

One thing (one of many things) I'm looking forward to with CM:N is the much greater number and variety of mods. (This in no reflects any lack of appreciation to those who have created all the mods and 3rd-party scenarios for CM:SF! The game is an even more enjoyable experience thanks to your great mods and scenarios!) Not a few times while playing CM:SF I've thought to myself: "Man, if this were a WW2 game, there would be a dozen skin mods to choose from just for that particular model of that particular tank...." Granted, I'm mod-obsessed.

Seems to me that when CM progressed to CMx2, a lot of folks simply refused to join the party, if for no other reason than it wasn't WW2. Now that it's soon to be WW2 again, a lot of folks are going to come sauntering back to the party.

[Vark]

Elmar, I have re-read your comments and you are correct technically, though there was an allusion that some of the posters were becoming radicalised like the 9/11 terrorists (can I use that word, or is it now creator of man-caused disasters). But you are correct, a cursory viewing of the site is not the same being a regular viewer or contributor, I did you an injustice, apologies.

MikeyD, hit the nail on the head! It reminds me of a pupil, last term, who came out with the all too typical, "Well I don't care" argument to which my response was. "Well yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't have said that". Blank incomprehension followed, until it was explained to him by one of my more switched on students.

I really don't think Steve is fully aware of the emotional connection people made with the game. I loved Steel Panthers, but when I finally found the triple CM CD pack and loaded it it was like a little piece of me went "this is what I have been looking for". I used to doodle in my jotter, at school what I imagined my fantasy computer game would look like (they are painfully basic when it came to flight sims) but CM was 3D, like my doodles, it had accurate vehicle models, like my doodles!! I watched in amazement as my Jagdpanthers crept through the fog, or my grenadiers fought in blizzards, my wifes comment, when watching me fail again at A Winter Wonderland" was instructional at the impact of the game. "Do you have to play that game, it makes me feel cold!". I even hesitated to send my SS off their start lines in "A day at the zoo" because I was worried for their safety, for christ's sake I thought

A) It's a game

They are bloody SS!! Raus! Raus!

But I can also remember the bitter disappointment at finding out BORG SPOTTING!! Arghh!! For a while I did not play CM such was the emotional letdown but then remembered it's only a game! Still it felt as thought the game had personally let me down and it was not because of an understandable trade-off by a small outfit pushing the boundaries of wargaming.

There was a fascinating thread, a couple of months ago, about SF's depiction of 1:1 and how some players began to identify far more with their troop's suffering. I think this emotional bond with the game should never be forgotten, especially when people think the love of their life, has just been rejected. Perhaps a more apposite anaology would be the GS whiners are reacting as though their big CM1 sis has been rejected for another woman, and they will do everything to convince themselves big CM sis is far better than that cheap SF slut and Steve is the worst villain that crept upon the face of 3D terrain.

[Battlefront.com]

Vark,

It seems to me that CM emotionally affected some people far more than they would admit and they believed, as loyal supporters, that there opinions would not only be listened too, but acted upon.

This is definitely at the heart of it. I've said this since 2005 when we announced CM:SF that some CMx1 fans would not like it and would be disappointed by the new direction (not to mention setting). The thing is some people were convinced I wasn't talking about them and that someone else would be disappointed. When they found out that I was in fact talking about them a few number just could not handle that we weren't 100% dedicated to making sure they, personally, were happy with everything. They wanted to be the center of our universe and simply weren't able to handle it when it became clear they weren't.

As for the jilted lover thing... not far off. But some of them are the type that scratch faces out of pictures, spread false rumors, stalk, get restraining orders against them, etc. instead of just getting over it.

But you are correct, a cursory viewing of the site is not the same being a regular viewer or contributor, I did you an injustice, apologies.

As Elmar has said, some have gone WAY beyond what could be called a "rational" emotional response to disappointment. To them CM:SF (and/or the underlying engine) is an abomination and that I, personally, am the Antichrist of wargaming. Instead of moving on to something else, and using their precious time on this Earth for something positive, they spend hour after hour grinding axes. This is simply unhealthy.

I really don't think Steve is fully aware of the emotional connection people made with the game.

Not really surprised at the emotional connection. I'm also not surprised that there are some real nutters out there. We've have hundreds of thousands of customers over the last 10 years. Statistically a very large number of them have serious psychological problems. It's not a wonder that GS has some of them hanging out there self medicating, it's actually more surprising that there aren't more of them. Just like I'm surprised we've only had to deal with a few neo-nazis here over the years.

Steve

[MarkEzra]

I loved Steel Panthers, but when I finally found the triple CM CD pack and loaded it it was like a little piece of me went "this is what I have been looking for".

I was a big Fan of Steel Panthers, too. I even did testing and scen for some of the SPWAW Campaigns. When CMBO came out there were all kinds of fire storms and broken hearts by SP guys and the CMBO guys. I once posted that both games existed on my PC in complete harmony...then Nobody liked me. Thanks for your post...all too rational, of course..but thank you none the less.

[VonWebb]

GSX dude... i've wanted to say this for a bit. you are either 12 and live with your mother... or 40 and live with your mother.. i can't decide. You are a BIG mystery.

What is your gripe? DATE!..someone.

[Michael Emrys]

Ahem, I have bigger boobs than they do.

The injections are coming along nicely then?

Michael