Holiday Bones, Norman Style

[John Kettler]

Steve,

I gave it a pretty good shot, in terms of research, but you make the final call.

LukeFF,

Bet the answer's going to be similar to the current reply.

ASL Veteran,

If you haven't read them, suggest you investigate Leavenworth Papers No. 2 Nomonhan: Japanese-Soviet Tactical Combat, 1939, by Edward J. Drea and No. 7 August Storm: The Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria, by LTC David M. Glantz. HSU Dmitriy Loza's Defending The Soviet Motherland has some fascinating tanker's perspectives on August Storm as seen from the turret. Quite exciting moving tanks across the Great Qinghan Range, including, if you can believe it, BT-7s which had sat out the war in the Far Eastern military districts!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wiggum]

My grandpa was in the 12.SS in Normandy, i will ask him if they had any MP-44 there.

Maybe he can remember...

[Michael Emrys]

...I have a Yankee wife to convince

"But it's a business expense, Hon! It's just for research, I swear!"

:D:D

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

John K,

I gave it a pretty good shot, in terms of research, but you make the final call.

And thanks for the effort. We've looked into this before and so have a lot of other wargame/miniatures guys. I've seen several detailed discussions like this on other websites and they've come to the same conclusion we came to back in 1999... the weight of the evidence shows that few were in Normandy relative to theoretical "slots" for them.

As for the G43, indeed... it's the same thing In fact, total production of the G43 was about the same as the Sturmgewehr (400,000). Even rarer is the FG42 at about 5,000 produced, though obviously that was proportional to the forces they went to. Compare this with 14,500,000 Kar98k and 1,000,000 MP40s.

Wiggum... well, that will be an interesting answer if you get one Not scientific, but certainly cool to hear something first hand.

Steve

[Gromit]

My grandpa was in the 12.SS in Normandy, i will ask him if they had any MP-44 there.

Maybe he can remember...

A first-hand account! Go for it Wiggum. If I might be so bold- and obviously this depends greatly on your GP's willingness to discuss his war experiences, you should really try to record some conversations with him if at all possible. My father is 86 and served in the Pacific with the US Navy. He is more forthcoming than many WW2 vets I have met, but 90%+ of them just want to leave that all in the past. It must be particularly painful for them to recall all the guys that paid the ultimate price, whatever side they were on.

Can't say I can blame them from a personal standpoint. All it takes to convince one is to watch the "Band of Brothers" documentary, in particular the interview with Babe Heffron, where he talks about never being able to get out of his head the image of a buddy who as he puts it "took a bullet meant for you". Very sobering stuff.

[ASL Veteran]

Steve,

ASL Veteran,

If you haven't read them, suggest you investigate Leavenworth Papers No. 2 Nomonhan: Japanese-Soviet Tactical Combat, 1939, by Edward J. Drea and No. 7 August Storm: The Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria, by LTC David M. Glantz. HSU Dmitriy Loza's Defending The Soviet Motherland has some fascinating tanker's perspectives on August Storm as seen from the turret. Quite exciting moving tanks across the Great Qinghan Range, including, if you can believe it, BT-7s which had sat out the war in the Far Eastern military districts!

Regards,

John Kettler

Yes, the Drea book is the second book that I mentioned in my earlier post and follows the 2nd Battalion 28th Infantry Regiment. It's a much smaller book that the first one but still a good read. August Storm is the 1945 book that I referenced in my earlier post that I almost got but I hesitated due to the price.

[John Kettler]

Steve,

You're welcome! I'm curious, though, as to why you seem to welcome Wiggum's effort to talk to a veteran but seem to have no interest in several such opportunities I pointed out. I'd think hearing about such matters from both sides would provide the fullest picture.

Wiggum,

Best keep your grandpa away from Walter Marlowe, formerly of the 101st Airborne!

Gromit,

I have a few such tapes from my uncle, who was ultimately a Motor Machinist's Mate 1st Class in the Navy's Boat Two. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=46439 Unfortunately, Dad elected to interview him in the middle of a drinking bout--for both of them. Let's just say all that bourbon didn't improve the interview. He died before we could schedule a proper reinterview. Here's an Army training film of what they used to haul the M-boat (LCM). http://www.realmilitaryflix.com/public/378.cfm Nomenclature gets confusing for the tank retriever because the first models were designated M25 and built by one firm, but it couldn't keep up so another took over, with those being M26s. Here's Boat Two on the move http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/beachhd_btlefrnt/Photos/345.jpg

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

ASL Veteran,

I lucked out in that I met a retired officer unloading those and other goodies like the West Point Atlases at a game con in order to make room. The August Storm study is first rate and has a big chunk of maps included. Here's the free online version.

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp

Here are some copies of the actual study. Am guessing the staggering price you quoted was for the new Routledge version.

http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=500295&matches=2&author=U.S.+Army+Command+and+General+Staff+College.+Combat+Studies+Institute&browse=1&cm_sp=works*listing*title

Regards,

John Kettler

[ASL Veteran]

ASL Veteran,

Here are some copies of the actual study. Am guessing the staggering price you quoted was for the new Routledge version.

http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=500295&matches=2&author=U.S.+Army+Command+and+General+Staff+College.+Combat+Studies+Institute&browse=1&cm_sp=works*listing*title

Regards,

John Kettler

It was a while back when I was looking at it, but I think Glantz look at the Soviet operations in Manchuria in 1945 was broken into two volumes. The first volume was the strategic study (which I believe is the one you linked to - thanks) but the second volume was for the Tactical combat and that's the one I was more interested in. I've saved the link for the study that you provided so I can check it out later but I'm not sure the Tactical study is on there.

[Battlefront.com]

John K,

You're welcome! I'm curious, though, as to why you seem to welcome Wiggum's effort to talk to a veteran but seem to have no interest in several such opportunities I pointed out. I'd think hearing about such matters from both sides would provide the fullest picture.

Anecdotal recollections of one man from his experiences being recalled through 65 years of memory is not scientifically significant all on its own. It's interesting, and may help round out other information, but on its own it has no practical value. That's a fundamental basis of the scientific approach to research. We pride ourselves on our rigorous standards.

An exception where a single recollection would have an effect is if we thought the 12th SS had no Sturmgewehrs of any sort during the Normandy campaign. Wiggum's grandfather says "oh yes, absolutely I had one. It was issued to me during May when I was transferred to 1st Kompanie, 25th SS PzGren Rgt." A picture would be even better still

This sort of thing would disprove a position by offering decent evidence (even if not corroborated, which is still important to do) that our position is wrong. But that's not the case at all. We do understand the weapon was there, but all of our other research shows that they were in limited numbers. So even if Wiggum's grandfather said "Every squad in my company had at least one Sturmgewehr prior to the invasion. I remember this specifically because at the time we commented about how special this made us..." our picture does not change because it is not in conflict with our current conclusions on the matter.

Also, vague comments like "yes, at some point I had a Sturmgewher when I served in France" doesn't help since we need to know far more details and dates. Likewise, a comment like "we paratroopers experienced these things from Normandy through the end of the war" by a US paratrooper is valueless to us because it simply tells us something we already know and don't dispute. I could just as easily write up that quote and be 100% spot on and I didn't even serve there

Again, our position is that there were a proportionally small number of Sturmgewehrs in Normandy during the initial time period we are simulating. These were likely in the hands of "elite" units, especially those who had been recuperating after service on the Eastern Front (in particular 1st and 2nd SS). A smattering might have found their way into regular WH units, but it is unlikely to have been any more than a handful of examples. FJ units likely had some, but since they had their own custom made "assault rifle" (FG42) I'm sure they were also quite rare within these units.

CM: Normandy's initial release does not have either SS or FJ in it, so don't expect to see many Sturmgewehr in the initial release. For later releases the numbers will be higher, but still very small proportional to other weapons. When we get to Arnhem there will be a decent number. The next game Family, which goes from just before the Bulge until the end of the war, will have lots of them.

Steve

[John Kettler]

ASL Veteran,

I didn't know there was a second study, so thanks for that. Managed to confirm it by looking at a list of studies in No. 12, Seek, Strike and Destroy on TDs. I then decided to play a hunch and tweaked the URL. Results?

Happy New Year! The Tactical Study, No. 8, August Storm: Soviet

Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945, LTC David M. Glantz

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz4/glantz4.asp

Steve,

From what I've seen, the D-Day survivors seem to have a very clear grasp of that particular day and the bocage fight, as opposed to the long grind of what was to come, the former being seared into their memories, as it were. As such, I think it might be interesting to see what veterans of both sides have to say about the commonness of the MP-44 in Normandy. I've already shown that two different PIRs of the Screaming Eagles encountered the thing on D-Day and that the GIs came up with a lasting moniker for this distinctive weapon. We already know the priority units which got the MP-44 first, we know several different tactical organizations of formations using it, we know how it was envisioned to be used. It's clear that other formations of still high priority got it, and I've listed them: 2 FJD, 3 FJD, 2 PD, and likely, Panzer Lehr. As for the FG-42, I'm surprised so few were made. The range quoted in standard references by Chamberlain and Ellis, Hogg and Ezell is 5000-7000. Combat debut was apparently Gran Sasso in the Mussolini rescue, and very few, if any, reached the Eastern Front. I also learned that its assault rifle impact (technically not, because it used a full power cartridge) was blunted by treating it as an LMG. I think you're on shaky ground when it comes to the Gewehr 43, though, for Ezell, on page 509 of Small Arms of the World, 12th Edition says: "G43 was made in large quantities." Chamberlain and Ellis concur on page 52 of Weapons of the Third Reich, and Hogg, on page 43 of his Encyclopedia of Infantry Weapons of World War II, informs us: "The G43 was extensively used on the Eastern Front, being first issued in 1943 and was found in much lesser numbers on other fronts." So far, no luck on actual production figures.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

John K,

From what I've seen, the D-Day survivors seem to have a very clear grasp of that particular day and the bocage fight, as opposed to the long grind of what was to come, the former being seared into their memories, as it were.

Memories are tricky things, even when someone has just witnessed something minutes or hours before. Lots of studies about that by those interested in criminal justice. I've also read more than a few vet accounts that were wrong in the details. So vet accounts can not be taken out of context of the greater pool of evidence, including archive historical studies, production numbers, photographic evidence, physics, other vet accounts, whatever.

As I've said numerous times, what you've presented does not give any sense of scale of issue, while other pieces of evidence do. Therefore, the information you've come upon so far is complimentary to the position I've already described, not in contradiction to it. So there's really no point in discussing this any further since we're simply wasting each others' time

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

I've read some veteran accounts that made me wince, too, and I'm frighteningly familiar with the bank robber (bearing milk jugs) being chased by armed cops (carrying bananas as pistols) as proof of unreliability of eyewitness testimony. Am simply seeking a way to find out what the truth was on the MP-44 issue, not saying I have the proof as to any particular answer.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ASL Veteran]

ASL Veteran,

I didn't know there was a second study, so thanks for that. Managed to confirm it by looking at a list of studies in No. 12, Seek, Strike and Destroy on TDs. I then decided to play a hunch and tweaked the URL. Results?

Happy New Year! The Tactical Study, No. 8, August Storm: Soviet

Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945, LTC David M. Glantz

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz4/glantz4.asp

Excellent work sir! I've saved that link and I'll probably read through it in the near future. :cool:

[Battlefront.com]

Unfortunately the US military did not see fit to take along wargamers as documentarians, so we're going to be left with some pretty huge gaps about the little stuff forever Just think how much fun I had nailing down Romanian and Hungarian TO&E for WW2! Makes the Sturmgewehr issue seem absolutely rock solid by comparison. Which it pretty much is, IMHO. The amount of evidence, including the absence of evidence, paints a pretty clear picture. Or at least as clear as it needs to be for our purposes.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Look how long it took just to get military historians included! Regarding the MP-44, unless something spectacular falls into my lap, I've moved on. I am now, though, very curious as to Gewehr 43 production numbers, since I've yet to see even one. You have what three of my references said, though. That seems like a great question to pose to both Gordon Atwater at Aberdeen and the Senior Curators and Librarian of the National Firearms Museum. (does a little digging online) Hold the bus! The magic number is 400,000, per Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewehr_43 The links are quite meaty, including this one from a G43/K43 collectors' site. It tells us that nearly 50,000 G43s were produced in a standard sniper configuration, for what was supposed to eventually be complete conversion of German snipers to semiautomatic weapons. http://www.gewehr43.com/info.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[normannobrot]

I realy can't wait for CM:N to come out...am a big fan of all the combat mission serie's mainly thank's to the fact that there still TURN BASE , so. battlefront please DO NOT get rid of this option if you can help it, as it is pucker the way you have got it in CM:SF giving the player the choice to his/her preference, weither it be turn based or real time.

and just to point out the only flaw's i found with the earlier serie's (just to let you know)

was the jagdpanther was labelled as having schurzen in one of the model's but didn't show it in the 3d model in game.

and was confused a bit with the back of the case for CM:AK where it sais "ARE YOU READY TO DEPLOY THUNDEROUS TANKS LIKE PERSHING,KING TIGER OR FIREFLY?"

well almost, as there was a firefly and a king tiger but no pershing??

(was searching the ranks for hour's lol)

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Actually CMAK didn't feature King Tigers either. Someone got a little too enthusiastic with that line.

[normannobrot]

yeah...true..lol

Oh and one more thing, I realy Hope you(battlefront) will follow suit and release a new "eastern front" edition to .....

Pucker !! Lol...

all the best.

[Echo Delta]

Less words and more Pics please. TIA

[Sergei]

I realy can't wait for CM:N to come out...am a big fan of all the combat mission serie's mainly thank's to the fact that there still TURN BASE , so. battlefront please DO NOT get rid of this option if you can help it, as it is pucker the way you have got it in CM:SF giving the player the choice to his/her preference, weither it be turn based or real time.

That'd be like Mercedes Benz removing headlights from their new cars because it's more fun to drive at day time. If anything, I'd imagine future versions of CMx2 to have MORE play modes, not less.

[Dan Dare]

do the tracks of the tanks look ok for all of you?, i found them too lose. The M3's are pretty much well done, but M4's tracks (and logically M10's and M7's) look as if they have extra links more than a mere problem on tension. (For Jpz iv and m5's could not tell, for mader iii's i have to take another look at my little books...)

[Battlefront.com]

WeGo will never leave the CMx2 engine. Why should it since we designed it to be there, spent a lot of time coding it, and would probably result in our premature (and horribly painful) deaths if we ever removed it?

Yeah, the track tension representation is definitely wrong. It's just the way it wound up looking with unaltered CM:SF code. It's on the polish list of things to fix. Judging by how many times the testers have mentioned this (starting within minutes of their first look at it!) I'd say we'll have a mutiny on our hands if we don't get it fixed

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Track tensioning grogs! Pretty funny, but it also shows how seemingly small things can destroy immersion in a game. And with such gorgeous AFVs for contrast, saggy tracks simply won't cut it. As for WeGo, I'm very glad to see such an emphatic, positive statement regarding it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[gibsonm]

Track tensioning grogs!

Regards,

John Kettler

Not quite, just people who have had to spend hours putting track back on (ususally at the worst possible time - like crossing a stream at night in winter on your way to the FUP) because the #$^%$&^ #%^&$*&^(* @^@*&^@&*@ driver couldn't be bothered to do his job right. :mad:

You only have to "enjoy" this experience once for it to be stuck in your mind and be usually the first thing you notice when you look at a vehicle (be it yours or a subordinates that your are checking, or a photo, or a CM:N model).