Beta testing 1.2? Please make sure these 1.11 issues are fixed!

[[hirr]Leto]

I don't know Adam, but I feel that there is this pervasive "us" vs "them" mentality here sometimes. I can only assume that with so much passion for the game invested in both beta testers, people who like the game, and people who want the game to be better, and those who just don't plain like the directon it has taken, there is going to be constant turbulence.

It's unfortunate that people criticize a game, but for all intents and purposes, it sounds like Adam wanted to make the game better, and in his defense he often got pounced on by people defending the game. But there is a lot of criticism of this game, and BFC and its testers have had to put up with a lot of crap too. His bellicosity did not help his situation, but I think that he has become a victim of this "turbulence", although there are no excuses for his freaking out, I do agree.

It's easy to be snide to people on message boards, lord knows I have done it myself, but i think that 99% of people here have a passion for the games that BFC puts out and that in general, everyone wants to make the game better.

At the end of the day, it breaks down to those people who want the game to be a certain way, those people that want it a little different, and then those that have completely polar perspectives to the first set. And then there is BFC who makes the games "the way they want to make them" and they have the final say.

If you like what BFC does, play the games, and add constructive criticism. If you don't like the games, then why are you here?

For those of you who see someone posting that you disagree with for any reason, and all you can think of is "what a jerk", "boy I hate that guy", or DEATH TO XXX!! I KEEL HEEM!" then maybe you better screw off that melon of yours shake out the crap that has congealed between your ears, screw it back on and try to post with a bit more integrity, humility and most of all, less ascerbic rhetoric. We're all here because we love to game with the short amount of time that we have to play in our busy lives, and its always a tragedy when this crap erupts.

BTW, you can vote for Leto as Miss Congeniality on an upcoming poll. I twirl batons in high heels while plotting CM moves for my talent show bit.

Cheers!

Leto

[ASL Veteran]

Here is the ASL Veteran theory on the great Adam banning episode of 2009 . Just before the last straw landed on the camel's back you may have noticed that Charles directly responded to one of Adam's observations regarding spotting. I have seldom, if ever, actually seen Charles post on any of the forums even though his post count is up in the mid 500s. For Adam it may have been like the wargaming equivalent of Michael Jackson talking to a fan (from beyond the grave ). I'm going to speculate that Adam got so excited at having his concerns addressed directly from "the jar" that when he started posting other concerns he became uncontrollably angry when another forum poster requested that he moderate his tone or even cease and desist. It would have been like putting Beggin strips out for your dog and then blocking the dog from eating them. It's BACON!!!! Adam was of the opinion that now that he was talking to the jar instead of just the 'front man' (Steve) nobody should get in his way because his many concerns would finally be addressed. Adam was clearly being highly disrespectful towards that other forum member and I'm sure that was a major contributing factor in the end result.

That's my theory anyway. I hate to speculate on Adam's state of mind because he can't respond, but there it is.

[Redwolf]

Here is the ASL Veteran theory on the great Adam banning episode of 2009 . Just before the last straw landed on the camel's back you may have noticed that Charles directly responded to one of Adam's observations regarding spotting. I have seldom, if ever, actually seen Charles post on any of the forums even though his post count is up in the mid 500s. For Adam it may have been like the wargaming equivalent of Michael Jackson talking to a fan (from beyond the grave ). I'm going to speculate that Adam got so excited at having his concerns addressed directly from "the jar" that when he started posting other concerns he became uncontrollably angry when another forum poster requested that he moderate his tone or even cease and desist. It would have been like putting Beggin strips out for your dog and then blocking the dog from eating them. It's BACON!!!! Adam was of the opinion that now that he was talking to the jar instead of just the 'front man' (Steve) nobody should get in his way because his many concerns would finally be addressed. Adam was clearly being highly disrespectful towards that other forum member and I'm sure that was a major contributing factor in the end result.

That's my theory anyway. I hate to speculate on Adam's state of mind because he can't respond, but there it is.

But this thread was started before Charles made the above reply.

I haven't looked at the spotting changed in 1.20 in detail, and maybe it's better I don't. But if you want a "Pillar's last straw" theory of some kind then it is probably a better bet to say that he wasn't only disappointed that some of his not obviously invalid points went by untouched, but that not only there were comparable area code changes but that those changes were changing things to something that looks like worse to some.

In the end it really doesn't matter what Pillar or I or whatever think personally. But you can't help noticing that the forum reception of the 1.20 code and the British modules is very, very cold. A number of people have expressed that the code changes that were made were not in the areas that they thought would be the next most important aspect to fiddle with. Then comes the inevitable number of people who are disappointed that there are no new Red forces whatsoever and a couple of people with technical problems.

The result is a "meh" reception, which is a really bad thing since no matter what you think about the game direction a lot of good people have invested a lot of their life energy into this module and the reception shouldn't be "meh".

[sfhand]

I'm not going to comment on the banning, but I do want to comment on attitudes in general. There are things I'd like to see in the game sooner rather than later - movable waypoints would really make my day - and some of these things Steve has said would be in the game in the not too distant future - I was sure movable waypoints would be in this patch since they weren't in the last one.

The thing is, I don't think BF and the Beta Testers (hmmm... anyone got a musical group they want to name?) owe me anything in the way of improvement other than bug fixes. I'm pretty sure this forum has been an invaluable source of good ideas for BF, I believe Steve has said as much. But, there is such a thing as wearing out one's welcome, and while some may not like it, treating others with respect typically gets one further ahead in life (and on internet forums) than being a jackass (I know this to be true from personal experience...).

For me, it's not a question of whether or not CM fits my ideal of a perfect game; I enjoy it for what it is. I'm aware that I don't know more than BF about their game's potentials and possibilities (many critics of the game, both here and elsewhere, seem to lack this perspective) which I hope comes through when I ask for things like moveable waypoints (a feature that would make the game vastly more enjoyable... for me!) and M707 los tools (a feature that I wouldn't use anywhere near as often). In the end it is their product to do with as they please.

[MarkEzra]

This game just seems to piss some people off. From the Setting, to modeling, coding, and marketing, from patching, Modules, or beta testers; there's just no end to the seemingly personal torment that BFC has inflicted upon us. And No one seems to care. With each backward step patch, or ill designed module the fan base dwindles, leaving only those few stalwart critics pointing out: "I told you so". They, these honest few, hold out that dim candle of hope that BFC will stop listening to their advice and finally take it. The forum has been thus before CMBO and ever shall it remain so.

Cheer up...have a pickle

[Pvt. Ryan]

Does the pickle have AAA?

[Kwazydog]

I haven't looked at the spotting changed in 1.20 in detail, and maybe it's better I don't.

Very little has changed with regards to spotting redwolf and as such a lot of the fuss we have seen about it have been from people imagination based on a small amount of sample data from a game or two of the demo.

In the end it really doesn't matter what Pillar or I or whatever think personally. But you can't help noticing that the forum reception of the 1.20 code and the British modules is very, very cold.

Overall the reception to the patch has been fine, to say that it is very, very cold indicates a rather bias point of view.. Are people letting off fireworks over 1.2, I dont think so, but this is also not something we expected. People get excited about new features, new visuals, etc whereas 1.2 was primarily about solidifying the core features engine in preperation for moving forward to Normandy.

With regards to the Brit module it has delivered what we always suggested it would. People can decide whether that is of interest to them or otherwise.

Dan

[Pandur]

Adam

Banned

damn, he finaly made it. i knew this was comming. i think it was good haveing him around, bad it had to end like this.

[Moon]

"The result is a "meh" reception, which is a really bad thing since no matter what you think about the game direction a lot of good people have invested a lot of their life energy into this module and the reception shouldn't be "meh"."

Keep in mind that the "reception" we care about reaches far beyond just this forum. Only about 1 in 10 customers ever even register here, and even fewer actually post.

The few people who seem to have nothing better to do with their lives than hang out in these forums and complain and complain and complain are hardly a "reception". At least not one we would care much about. Especially not if they post minutes after the demo was uploaded, and before the British Force module is even released (I know it's hard to believe that but it's true! After reading some of the posts here I almost had forgotten that neither the patch nor the module are out yet! )

(On a side note: isn't it strange that these people keep hanging around here? Because one would think that there should be SO many MUCH better games to play out there, they should have no time left to be here...)

Anyway... What we do care about is that fans of the game are able to post their opinion, too, and discuss the game. And as much as allowing criticism is important for a healthy discussion (if we'd stifle it completely here - which would be easy to do - we would not be able to constantly improve), it seems that recently this is becoming more and more difficult. We've been receiving emails about this from people who congratulate us on the game but do not want to do it on the forum. This has happened before by the way (it's rare that something truly new happens on a forum that is nearing 10 years of age) and was followed by bannings of some folks who became so... let's say, emotionally invested... that they simply made it impossible for fans to post about the game they like.

If the some people here continue along the same lines, the consequences will be similar.

As it is, v1.20 is the very best version of the game yet, and people are noticing. Judging by the number of demo downloads so far, by what I am hearing from the press, and the few heroic fans who are posting here able and willing to defend their opinions are all indicating the same thing. And it's pretty hot. We're going to pre-print a few extra copies just to be able to keep up with expected demand

[dan/california]

I've said for some time now that I get enough entertainment value out of the forum to send you guys $25-50 every six months. Never mind that the games are excellent and improving continually. Maybe the Midsummer heat is making people crabby?

Oh, and the BF module is coming out Monday right? Please? Maybe? I held off on downloading the Demo because I didn't want ignore the SO for three days, and then another week. Did I mention it was hot out.

[Pandur]

Oh, and the BF module is coming out Monday right?

you have to try like this

btw. moon, when did you said the british will be here? i forgott

thanks

[cabal23]

Simple solution:

Don't fly off the handle when "defending yourself".

Simple Solution Flying Knives:

Don't provoke people. I would have told you the same thing. If YOU aren't saying something productive then don't say it at all. Nothing in your post served to positively enhance the convo. You post only served to instigate. And as for BF taking your side. Sad. I see both parties as wrong. Wow these forums are degrading into gamespot forums. Apparently this is a beef long standing with BF and Adam and for that I will stay out of it, but I don't think there was one single thing wrong with the OP original post. It sounded to me like he was reporting bugs.

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Well, he wasn't banned for the OP and I hardly think he was provoked.

After post #11 there was only one thing that could be done by BFC, and they did it.

I hope that once we get to the Eastfront Adam is given another chance but until that time Im'okay with him being banned. I wouldn't want to be in forum where people get to stick around after something like that. The banning was regrettable, but right.

[Fat Dave]

Hi Cabal23

I guess people will see things differently for sure. Adam often reported what he saw as bugs and this sort of (groggy) dedication is what can help a game progress.

What I objected to however, was the way he chose to go about this. His resulting implosion was not a real surprise, but sad in a way. He can tell me to do anything he likes, it's the internet after all, but if he upsets the moderators by stepping over certain well drawn lines in the sand, then he get's what everyone else would get.

Actually, for the most part, this forum is by far the best for open, polite and balanced discussions, people who are perhaps too sensitive to critique, perceived or otherwise, should be aware of what open discourse can bring.

[Bulgaroktonos]

So when will we be allowed to call in a fire mission with whistle-tipped artillery shells?

[flamingknives]

Simple Solution Flying Knives:

Don't provoke people. I would have told you the same thing. If YOU aren't saying something productive then don't say it at all. Nothing in your post served to positively enhance the convo. You post only served to instigate. And as for BF taking your side. Sad. I see both parties as wrong. Wow these forums are degrading into gamespot forums. Apparently this is a beef long standing with BF and Adam and for that I will stay out of it, but I don't think there was one single thing wrong with the OP original post. It sounded to me like he was reporting bugs.

Cabal, I believe that you are confusing this thread with one some weeks back where an exchange between Adam and me got a bit out of hand. Read the first six posts - that's where I was talking to Adam, quite reasonably. Then it was Fat Dave who objected to Adam's tone and engendered the expletive-laden response.

While Fat Dave's post may be considered provocative, is Adam's response justified?

[Moon]

Guys, especially with Adam now banned and not being able to respond*, and also because the ban is permanent, there is no point in further discussing this. I am locking this thread as well.

Martin

* On a side note, please note that our forum rules have been recently updated. Posting "messages" from banned users (this includes cross-posting from another forum) is now against the forum rules and will lead to Infractions.

[Battlefront.com]

I stepped out for a bit of R&R just after banning Adam. I have returned to find an email from him with a request to post a response. The discussion has moved on so I don't feel that's appropriate. However, I am posting my synopsis of his point. And that is he isn't a bad guy and that sometimes his sensitivities to comments of others gets the better if him. I agree with both sentiments.

As I said earlier, I think it is a pity that things had to end this way, but I honestly believe it is better for everybody (especially Adam) to have this break be formal while the previous ones were not. Unlike almost all of the other personalities I've had to ban over the years, I wish Adam well.

Steve