Will CMx2 be more gentle towards newbies?

[Immacolata]

This could mean lots of things.

There is a bit of a wargamer masochist hidden inside me, since I try many times to get to "love" a certain wargame, but somehow they always end up brutalizing me. It was first with Close Combat that I really got all passionate about those wargames because the games were both deep and damn sexy for their time.

The fidelity of graphics and sound in CM games never impressed me, but I enjoyed both CMBO and CMBB SE for some time. But both games always felt overwhelming at first in a way that I didn't experience with CC.

First I think the presentation is the biggest newbie hater. HEre. Menu. Play game. Select a mission. Or operation. Thats it. Now go out and play. Difference between this and CC was, that CC had a narrow focus for your actions. Win operation Market Garden, conquer Russia etc. CM is just a pile of completely unrelated battles presented for the player like a bin full of various toys for sale.

I am not asking for cut-scenes and dramatic WW2-themede voice overs, but a tiny amount of hand holding in the beginning would probably help getting to enjoy the game out of the box even if you aren't great at playing them. A long list of scenarions, just sorted alphabetically, isn't always what Im looking for. Give a man a gun and a purpose and he will fight. Same with CM games. Put some kind of wrapper around the individual scenarios or a goal perhaps?

I hope CMx2 will have a little more of that, because the underlying gameplay in CMBB and BO is good, and that I enjoy.

[Soddball]

Try getting pumped up before you play. Watch some Schwarzenegger films. Then play.

[Immacolata]

I find there is very little relation between Schwarzenegger and a game like Combat Mission. And its not like I view my games as lovers, I don't want to do foreplay

[Dschugaschwili]

The missions may also be a problem. A friend of mine who never owned CMBO or CMBB bought CMAK recently, and he regularly gets clobbered by the AI if he tries a scenario designed by a CM veteran.

Please have a couple of newbie-friendly missions ready that can be played like a multi-lesson tutorial.

Dschugaschwili

[Immacolata]

Aye, that would be nice. One doesn't have to exclude the other, a sandbox for newbians with cherry picked operations and scenarios, then the full monty for veterans.

[ParaBellum]

Yup, newbie missions would be nice. Something like "Cemetery Hill" in CMBB as the Germans. You know, that kind of easy-feel-good scenario that boosts your confidence and lifts the morale...

[aka_tom_w]

Bring on "Chance Encounter" for CMx2!

-tom w

[Vanir Ausf B]

Relative spotting will likely make the game more difficult to play well. How much so I don't know, but the general trend of the first 3 CM games was that they got more hardcore and realistic with each release, with the big jump happening between CMBO and CMBB. CMx2 looks to be more hardcore and realistic than the last game, so I don't think CMx2 will be very newbie friendly.

[aka_tom_w]

But we can hope it should be or could be "war gamer" friendly.

anyone who has ever Played a board game like Squad Leader (for instance) should still want to TRY to have fun playing CMx2

I think the BIG thing is to make at least one good Demo scenario exceptionally easy to learn and extremely Newbie friendly!

(after that we'll have them hooked and AS ALWAYS they WILL be aCMilated! )

-tom w

[ September 14, 2005, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[CMX2 Borg]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

(after that we'll have them hooked and AS ALWAYS they WILL be asCMilated! )

Get it right, twerp. :mad:

CMX2 newbies will have their disinctiveness added to our own. Resistance is futile. Unless it's not WW II then all bets are off.

[Guest ExplodingMonkey]

Originally posted by Immacolata:

...CC had a narrow focus for your actions. Win operation Market Garden, conquer Russia...

Conquer Russa?!! That's your idea of a "narrow focus"?!??!!!

[Salkin]

Originally posted by Dschugaschwili:

The missions may also be a problem. A friend of mine who never owned CMBO or CMBB bought CMAK recently, and he regularly gets clobbered by the AI if he tries a scenario designed by a CM veteran.

Please have a couple of newbie-friendly missions ready that can be played like a multi-lesson tutorial.

Dschugaschwili

Most quickbattles are in fact rather newbie friendly and maybe that's why they're my scenario of choice .

//Salkin

[Battlefront.com]

CMx2 will be more newbie friendly. We are planning on a "training campaign" and will invite new players to play the game using a sort of beginner's mode. This means features that normally are newbie hostile, such as Relative Spotting, will be turned down as much as possible or disabled completely. The game will play quite differently and some people will stick with it even after they get the hang of it. Let's not forget that there are people that play CMx1 with Fog of War turned off (yes, it is true!).

Steve

[Barrold]

I think newbie friendliness should be seen in the intuitive nature of the interface, the explanations available in the manual, the amount of information provided by popup menus, and a thorough tutorial or tutorials covering basic functions and tactics.

Cemetary Hill...chuckle chuckle snort.

BDH

[Zalgiris 1410]

If CMx2 is gonna be as completely different as the BFCs are making it then I think we are all gonna be transformed into newbies quite frankly.

The good thing about that is that we're all gonna need to be treat ourselves as newbies to start off with.

This will hopefully mean that we can all enjoy those specifically newbie friendly senarios and find out just how quickly we become veterans again.

Now that's an idea for a challenge, hey!

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Let's not forget that there are people that play CMx1 with Fog of War turned off (yes, it is true!).

Steve

I play with Fog of War off, because I have awesome recon units!

Here is a confession:

Ive played CMBO, CMBB, CMAK from the very beginning, and never played against a human

I tried PEBM once, and never got past first turn. It was very difficult to master to me.

I hope the AI is stronger in the new game, and maybe represents several different playing styles, kind of like those opponents in chess video games

[Other Means]

I think the greatest help for n00bs with QB's would be a friendly AI setup.

If you could have a look at the map, after choosing your units etc then if you have no idea how to start, click "Auto deploy" and the AI would deploy your own forces.

This shows the proper tactical thinking to follow and as the player gets more adept, they can start to change the deployment to their advantage.

Also, the Vet players would use it to get their troops into proper marching order.

Just a thought.

[Other Means]

Also, it would seem to require no real feature creep.

(Said with no knowledge of the code, yet a completely straight face)

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Other Means:

I think the greatest help for n00bs with QB's would be a friendly AI setup.

God! I hope the Strat AI is improved! Last night I played a CMBB QB for a lark against AI - 1945 Germans Assaulting Russians 400 points.

The silly AI bought all the wrong things and placed them in the worst possible locations.

(su-76's up front and in the open, BA-64's running around behind the line for no apparant reason, the limited amount of infantry was set up pretty good)

I was being pretty gamey and picked a Brummbar and a Panther and a green Inf Platoon (total 688 points) the Computer Player didn't stand a chance.

Anyways - if the Strat AI can do a decent job of placing units, then I am all for an auto-deploy.

btw, after disgracing the AI, I ran the game again, only this time I picked the AI's troops and didn't buy 'gamey' stuff for myself - the silly AI put a 76mm pillbox behind (yes BEHIND) a house.

grr...

[Other Means]

J Ruddy - it seems to have improved even in CMAK. I've not seen it do anything quite as daft as that.

[Agua]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Yup, newbie missions would be nice. Something like "Cemetery Hill" in CMBB as the Germans. You know, that kind of easy-feel-good scenario that boosts your confidence and lifts the morale...

[General Bolt]

Gentleness towards people should be a click or two away. I really liked the additional forces selection in my early CM days.

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Other Means:

J Ruddy - it seems to have improved even in CMAK. I've not seen it do anything quite as daft as that.

Thanks for the tip!

I haven't tried playing single player in CMAK very much, mostly TCP/IP. The next time I'm bored I'll try playing black shirts against Brits in Crete or something equallt interesting and see what the STRAT AI does.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Other Means:

Also, it would seem to require no real feature creep.

(Said with no knowledge of the code, yet a completely straight face)

Steel Panthers had auto deploy; it's a nice idea, especially for regimental level battles.

Seriously though - no emails from you; is there another turn waiting for me?

[Immacolata]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

CMx2 will be more newbie friendly. We are planning on a "training campaign" and will invite new players to play the game using a sort of beginner's mode. This means features that normally are newbie hostile, such as Relative Spotting, will be turned down as much as possible or disabled completely. The game will play quite differently and some people will stick with it even after they get the hang of it. Let's not forget that there are people that play CMx1 with Fog of War turned off (yes, it is true!).

Steve

Oi! No finger pointing! My ma always taught that was not polite

I play with it off when I get my nose clobbered. Then I try again, see if I can best myself with FOG off, and then perhaps play again with fog on. I always have problems learning to know the terrain well, fog of war eliminates that.

But when I was thinking newbie friendly I perhaps also was thinking a slight effort in the direction towards a sense of a greater cohesion. Big boys with stacks of greenbacks tends to afford cut scenes and dramatic interludes etc. That would be nice, but hardly adding anything to the core gameplay. But I guess I am inquiring if there will be something that gives you a bit more feeling a part of something bigger. The operations tend to do that already, but you still are presented with a huge list of scenarios that seems haphazardly thrown together (though they probably aren't, they do feel like that).