Why ignore your beta testers? (too many problems)

[Achim]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

....

We expect to lose some of you guys over this too. We were prepared for that the day we started making CMBB. Each title has meant shedding some customers and gaining new ones. It's just the way things go.

Steve [/QB]

I am sorry to say that, but ...

The game has bugs, the customers hates the userinterface, the customers hates the way how they control units, some customers hates the WEGO feature and the bugy turn based feature.

Its nice that the battlefront guys likes the new system, but the battlefront guys are not the customers.

Steve, you said:"We expect to lose some of you guys".

You can bet your head on it, that you have lost "some" customers.

But i dispute that you gain new ones for the next Battlefront titles.

[Kineas]

The only thing what really put me off was that the wego mode in the demo contains bugs which must have been caught in the first hour of testing. So either you didn't test it all, or the guy was reading the forums instead.

[StellarRat]

Originally posted by Achim:

the customers hates the userinterface, the customers hates the way how they control units, some customers hates the WEGO feature and the bugy turn based feature.

...the nasty Hobbitssess stole my preciousssss...

[whaco]

Originally posted by Achim:

[its nice that the battlefront guys likes the new system, but the battlefront guys are not the customers.

Steve, you said:"We expect to lose some of you guys".

You can bet your head on it, that you have lost "some" customers.

But i dispute that you gain new ones for the next Battlefront titles.

Really Achim? You are reading the post of one right now. Never liked any BFC product until this one came along. When I heard BFC was developing a wego shmego-RTS or RTT, or whatever they call it now, I quickly gained interest.

The one thing that turned me off about the first engine was the fact, #1 it was wego shmego turn based and #2, all squads were represented by 3 man units. Sorry not my cup of tea. But that's just me and I respect the opinion of any and all who enjoy that style of play.

As far as losing customers go, I wrote in an earlier thread that nobody likes change, but for what it's worth, I think BFC has made a brilliant move to RTT and hope more future titles will be along these lines with an option for wego.

[ July 30, 2007, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: whaco ]

[ChrisND]

I love it when some people think they are speaking for everyone.

[Achim]

I play WEGO only and i really enjoy it.

(never though i will like a realtime strategy game)

@NormalDude, StellarRat:

I think your are pleased customers.

Thats ok.

Both of you like the AI bugs, the pathing problems, graphic problems, and so on.

Both of you like to click 5 times to give a unit a move order.

What would you say if battlefront dont patch it?

I dont think you are pleased customers, you HOPE that battlefont patches the bugs.

But thats it.

At this moment the game is mean.

With removed bugs better userinterface its superior (like any other CM titel).

@Rest:

If u like bugs and a complex userinterface, i dont speak for u, i am sorry.

I just speak for peoples who wants a bugfree and easy to handle interface.

[PSY]

Originally posted by Achim:

Both of you like the AI bugs, the pathing problems, graphic problems, and so on.

Both of you like to click 5 times to give a unit a move order.

What would you say if battlefront dont patch it?

@Rest:

If u like bugs and a complex userinterface, i dont speak for u, i am sorry.

I just speak for peoples who wants a bugfree and easy to handle interface.

I actually really like the interface. It did take some time to get used to, as I've been playing lots of RTS lately (mostly Company of Heroes and Dawn of War). But I've concluded a standard RTS "left-mouse click, right-mouse move, shift-click to add to path" interface just wouldn't have worked for CMSF. CMSF has a much richer command set and holding down the SHIFT constantly to add a command while trying to select one of the many movement options would have been a mess. CMSF both provides more movement and combat options and requires more finessing to combine movement options than a regular RTS.

I think the tabbed interface works very well. It clearly defines what I can and can't do simultaneously -- for example, targeting and movement are on different tabs and I can do them both simultaneously. Ultimately I've found the UI to be very clean and very straightforward.

I'm playing WEGO, so I can see how someone playing CMSF realtime might have to put a lot of time into learning to use shortcut keys, but I'm mostly happy using mouse clicks with an occasional keyboard shortcut.

The vehicle pahtfinding could definitely use some work, particularly in tight urban situations. But I'm confident Battlefront will put some resources into fixing it.

I'm not sure what graphic issues you're referring to, but I am very pleased with CMSF's graphics. As long as I keep the settings all cranked on full I think it looks very nice for a wargame. It doesn't look as good as Company of Heroes, but it compares very well to any other realistic wargame out there.

Overall even if no further fixes occur, I feel like I've gotten good value for my money -- particularly as I realize that realistic tactical simulations are a niche market and Battlefront (or any other serious computer wargame company) will never have the resources of a Relic or Blizzard.

[Achim]

Originally posted by PSY:

...

I think the tabbed interface works very well. It clearly defines what I can and can't do simultaneously -- for example, targeting and movement are on different tabs and I can do them both simultaneously. Ultimately I've found the UI to be very clean and very straightforward.

How do i move units or let them fire:

i am at the right tab to move my units (looking at a tap to see game status) ?

- yes i am. i can click "i" and choose the target to move.

- no, i am not. i click on the right tab. now i can press i .....

Choosing next unit, i wanne fire:

- Damm, i am at the wrong tab, but presse "i" to fire ...

- Choose fire tab after cancel wrong move order

- Press "i", target area

Some peoples love the editor "VI", but i realy love my "open office".

One suggestion:

Press "m", "move menu appears near mousecursor, choose the right move command", target area

press "f", "fire menu apears appears near mousecursor, choose the right fire command", target area

Easy to understand.

Do u wanne move ? Press m

Do u wanne fire ? Press f

And these two command/menus get used 90 % of gametime.

And not

"Look at the tabs, if u are in the right tab, press i.

but if u are in the wrong tab, choose the right tab and then press i".

But i think some of you are right.

I dont speak for most of the customers, its just my opinion.

Most of u like tab clicking/watching pressing the wrong key (cause in the wrong tab), choose the right tab and press the same key again.

The UI is very clean and very straightforward ....

[NCOIC]

I don't mind the camera, nor the UI, its the horrible pathing that makes it unplayable. Simple commands they screw up so horribly its unforgivable. Seriously... it appears that zero testing was done (which I know is not the case) ITS THAT BAD!

My only thought is that anyone who likes this game as-is has to be playing it realtime and doesn't mind the constant micro-managing. There is no other possible way anyone could enjoy it.

[Bunyip]

(We're way way off topic now but it was a bogus topic to start with so he'll live.)

Originally posted by Achim:

Some peoples love the editor "VI", but i realy love my "open office".

Vi rocks, it's fast to use (once you know it) and powerful and for maintaining remote *nix servers OO is never going to hold a patch. However if some numbnut has sent me a word doc vi is about as much use as a crayon.

The point? the right tool for the job is what's needed and classic RTS controls aren't going to cut it here. CM:SF has made some major changes over CMAK, and there are few tweaks needed to get it running smooth.

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by molotov_billy:

Acknowledge the fact there are other games in the universe aside from your own. Play them, learn from them. Realize that other games have developed controls and user interface to an exact science, and many games share the same controls for a reason - they're intuitive! It's what the human brain expects - people play more than one game at a time, and in doing so, expect a certain logical similarity in control schemes - not game content.

Invite a new user to your company's building and watch him play shock force - watch what he expects left click and right click to do, watch what he expects the arrow keys to do. Observe how many questions he has to ask about the UI to even place his units at the beginning of a scenario, nevermind the actual gameplay. You'll probably find that your game is ass-backwards in just about every conceivable aspect of user interface, and to claim that as "progress" is absolute pig-headed foolishness.

You guys are getting an absolute wealth of feedback from new users who've never tried Combat Mission - and you're completely ignoring it.

If you think the CMAK or CMBO were successful because of their controls and UI, I suspect you may be borderline delusional. They, like many games before them, were successful in spite of their controls.

Anyway, enough bitching. I'm off to play some shock force.

Good post.

People can get used to anything. When new beta testers (who I guess are all CMX1 veterans adn BFC devotees) said the controls were not intuitive, it doesn't just mean they are too used to CMBB, it means the controls aren't intuitive.

I think the UI/menu/hotkeys is fine in the game, but the camera and mouse controls don't make much sense.

[aka_tom_w]

Took me six maybe nearly seven hours to get somewhat comfortable playing. Now just going into hour nine I'm starting to have a little fun, but holy cow BFC that was not my expectation!

OK

From my own experience beta testing this game, the post above is "NORMAL"

It should take 6-7 hours to "get it".

When first asked for feedback about the camera controls I said "I am having a lot of problems with it and I really don't like it and it does not "feel" comfortable at all"

But after about 3 days of testing I was a convert and it felt ok.

By hour 9-10 of playing the camera should be secound nature if you are using a 3 button scroll wheel mouse (if you are not using a scroll wheel mouse GET ONE! I would say the camera controls are might be bordering on unplayable without a scroll wheel mouse IMHO)

The camera controls are great once you get used to playing and in a day or two of playing they should become second nature...

FWIW

[SgtMuhammed]

I just don't understand the venom over the UI and the cameras. The first time I fired up the demo was just like firing up CMBO as has been said. I have been playing a lot of Medieval II and reflexively tried to use the same mouse commands. When those didn't work I reminded myself that I was playing a new game and would have to learn a new set of reactions.

No problem, 15 minutes later I knew the cameras enough to see what I wanted and had figured out the commands including call for fire and getting the Javelins off the Strykers. All of that was before I started to RTFM. I just don't see were all this talk of a "steep learning curve" and putting off people because they can't figure the game out comes from. The interface may not be as slick or as simple as Warcraft or Total War but I expect more from CM and don't exptect the controls to be dumbed down. Even so it takes me two clicks to dismount my troops, two clicks to give a movement order (not counting setting waypoints), two clicks to target or check LOS. I'm not in the greatest of shape but so far I have yet to get my pulse at an aerobic rate during a scenario.

Are there things I would have done differently, yes. Are there things I think the devs need to look at, yes. Is the game hopelessly flawed and worthy of the venom that has been spewed at it, not even close.

[Melnibone]

Agree completely sgtgoody - I ran through the tutorial campaign without any manual and found the cameras and UI OK. That was WEGO though - maybe that makes a difference.

[OneShot]

I never played one of the previous titles of the series before, simply because I'm not really a WW2 buff. Anyway, at the moment my only gripes are about the bugs (pathfinding mostly, fortunatly the game runs ok on my system) and to a small extend about the UI.

I do like the system with the different tabs, works well the only thing I really miss are some shortcuts to directly jump to the needed tab. Yes there are "T" and "Y" which you can use to scroll through the tabs but that just doesn't cut it (for me).

Aside from that, yes this game has a learning curve but most good games do have that (Dangerous Waters for example).

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Took me six maybe nearly seven hours to get somewhat comfortable playing. Now just going into hour nine I'm starting to have a little fun, but holy cow BFC that was not my expectation!

OK

From my own experience beta testing this game, the post above is "NORMAL"</font>

[Becket]

Originally posted by Melnibone:

Agree completely sgtgoody - I ran through the tutorial campaign without any manual and found the cameras and UI OK. That was WEGO though - maybe that makes a difference.

No, I did it real time and had the same experience. I won't claim to be a majority, or indicative of the average user, or whatever, but there you go.

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

... Is the game hopelessly flawed and worthy of the venom that has been spewed at it, not even close.

That's for sure.

BDS ain't just for Bush it seems.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Achim:

Steve, you said:"We expect to lose some of you guys".

You can bet your head on it, that you have lost "some" customers.

But i dispute that you gain new ones for the next Battlefront titles.

A look at the new user names who signed up to congratulate him on the title has already proven you wrong, though. Not that the criticisms aren't without merit, but why embarrass yourself with stupid blanket statements like this that can be disproven by a casual glance at the forum's first page?

[Achim]

Originally posted by Achim:

How do i move units or let them fire:

i am at the right tab to move my units (looking at a tap to see game status) ?

- yes i am. i can click "i" and choose the target to move.

- no, i am not. i click on the right tab. now i can press i .....

Choosing next unit, i wanne fire:

- Damm, i am at the wrong tab, but presse "i" to fire ...

- Choose fire tab after cancel wrong move order

- Press "i", target area

There is a much faster way.

I use the shortcuts "g","b","h" to move,fire and hide.

The game choose the right tab itself.

It need some time, but after hours of play, i start enjoying the UI.

[Blackmuzzle]

Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

to add, you know in fairness the game is solid as a damn rock on my PC. Played it all day yesterday, alt-tabbed back and forth, ran MS office apps and not a hiccup, rock solid. That too counts for something.

I just wanted to add that I have the same positive experience about the game's stability: Not a single crash.

Also, kudos to your programmers for figuring out how to alt-tab without having to reload the entire map. A lot of other games do that and it annoys me immensely.

[Jamm0r]

Originally posted by Blackmuzzle:

Also, kudos to your programmers for figuring out how to alt-tab without having to reload the entire map. A lot of other games do that and it annoys me immensely.

Kudos to OpenGL, rather. No lost devices or any such nonsense you get with Direct3D.

[Xipe66]

Originally posted by The Louch:

Besides, from a perspective of a rabid-gamer, I can assure you that CMSF is a fantastic release as far as what the Beta teams could’ve picked up on… you should’ve seen MOO3’s launch… Let’s just say that not having a game CTD every time you accidentally press any two keys at the same time is already a blessing

That's a really bad analogy, considering that MOO3 sucks even after patching.

[Achim]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Achim:

Steve, you said:"We expect to lose some of you guys".

You can bet your head on it, that you have lost "some" customers.

But i dispute that you gain new ones for the next Battlefront titles.

A look at the new user names who signed up to congratulate him on the title has already proven you wrong, though. Not that the criticisms aren't without merit, but why embarrass yourself with stupid blanket statements like this that can be disproven by a casual glance at the forum's first page? </font>

[pad152]

Steve

To me the issue is this, things that worked so well in the early CM games, either don't work or just aren't there.

1. Quick Battles, this worked so well in the early CM games and is either unfinshed or just plan broken. The unability to purchase units is a real shock.

2. Shoot & Scoot, and nothing to replace this!

3. Hull down.

4. Hold Fire Command, hide doesn't always work.

Why is the pic of gun carried by a crew member bigger (more important?), then the picture of the main weapon of the vehicle?

In earlier CM games you knew when your tank commander got hit riding in an open tank, now all I get is a gray dot?

Shocked & Suprised! :eek: