Israeli ground tactics in S. Lebanon

[Cary]

Originally posted by Hortlund:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cary:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hortlund:

Do not kid yourself about the usefulness of light infantry vs a modern army. The battle only looks equal because the modern army chooses to fight with one hand tied behind its back.

Grozny? Kabul?

I'll grant you, the Israelis may be in that treacherous middle zone: just enough to be ineffective. </font>

[Hortlund]

Still, I think you get my point.

[Cary]

Originally posted by Hortlund:

Still, I think you get my point.

Always dangerous to confuse correlation and causation, particularly with soldiers' lives at stake.

The biggest problem the Western Allies faced in Germany in 1945 was deciding which German surrender was the official one.

[SSgt Viljuri]

Hortlund wrote:

Do not kid yourself about the usefulness of light infantry vs a modern army.

If you are talking about mech heavy forces vs. light infantry, in depends entirely on territory.

If engagement distances are only a few hundred meters at max, and usually much shorter, the mech heavy force will suffer considerable casualties, even if we wouldn't be talking about any FDF Jaeger Battalion v. A2-yellow scenario.

[akd]

Anti-tank missiles are Hizbullah's main tactic

By ANSHEL PFEFFER

Lt. Ohad Shamir was commanding a surveillance team hiding in Maroun a-Ras. Their mission was to locate Hizbullah fighters still operating near the village after it had been captured by Golani and Paratroopers units. Shamir's men felt pretty safe - during the 10 days they spent in the village, not a shot had been fired at their building. But then an antitank missile hit the structure and Shamir was lightly wounded.

On Wednesday, he was being treated at Safed's Ziv Hospital for fragments in his back.

"They are small teams, three of four people, hiding in the undergrowth, firing out of nowhere. They're the biggest danger," he said of the Hizbullah gunmen.

The same story repeats itself time and again in the hospital wards where wounded solders are recovering and comparing experiences. No one has yet begun analyzing the causes of casualties in this war, but the indisputable fact is that the great majority of wounds and deaths were a result of antitank missiles - more than from gunfire, grenades and other explosive devices together.

The term "antitank" is misleading; the missiles were originally designed to be used against tanks, but the IDF's Merkava tanks and upgraded armored fighting vehicles are capable of withstanding most missiles in Hizbullah's arsenal. But Hizbullah isn't using them only against tanks. The range of these missiles - up to three kilometers - and the force of their explosive charges make them ideal for attacking groups of soldiers and IDF positions from afar.

Hizbullah have been preparing for this war for six years, and the two main weapons they have been stockpiling have been the Katyushas and other rockets now being fired at Israeli towns and antitank missiles. The organization has thousands of Soviet-built Sagger, Kornet and Fagot antitank missiles, the French MILAN and the US-built TOW, all supplied by Iran and Syria. These missiles are usually fired by a two- or three-man team.

Over the last two weeks, the tactic used by many of the Hizbullah teams has been to avoid close-range combat, where IDF soldiers' high level of training gives them the upper hand. Instead, the Hizbullah men have been moving to positions high above villages and continuing to fire missiles at the IDF forces. Large stores of missiles were prepared in the hills in advance, for this eventuality.

IDF officers have voiced frustration at the fact that even in areas where the IDF has been operating for more than a week, the missile threat still exists. On Monday, tanks that had been fighting for two days in the villages opposite Metulla came under missile fire when they were returning through the border fence.

Col. Ofek Buchris, a former Golani battalion commander and the officer now in charge of offensive operations on the northern front, said this week, "Hizbullah aren't as good soldiers as people have been saying, they don't have good combat skills. In shooting battles, we beat them every time. What they do have is good antitank capabilities.

"They were trained for this especially by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

For intents and purposes, Hizbullah is Iran's advance division here."

One of the first results of the IDF's experiences facing Hizbullah antitank missiles has been the quick adaptation of new training for reserve units that have just been called up. In addition to weapons and first aid refresher lessons, the men mobilized this week have all received special training on detecting and avoiding the missiles.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

And lest we believe they are ineffective against modern tanks:

2 tank brigade soldiers killed in Lebanon

IDF’s nightmare in south Lebanon – Hizbullah’s anti-tank weapons – assault 74th Battalion: During operations in village of Rajmin 4 km into Lebanon, Merkava tank absorbs deadly strike. Two soldiers killed, two air-lifted to hospital with severe burns

by Efrat Weiss

Two IDF soldiers were killed and two more were severely wounded when Hizbullah operatives fired an anti-tank missile at their Merkava tank.

The event occurred in the village of Rajmin in southwest Lebanon , about four kilometers into Lebanese territory. The wounded soldiers were from the 74th Battalion, Tank Brigade 188, which at the time of the operation was under the command of Reserves Brigade 609, which joined the fighting Wednesday.

The four casualties were occupants of a Merkava tank that was hit by an anti-tank missile during operations in the area. The two wounded troops, who suffered severe burns, were air-lifted to Rambam Hospital in Haifa and were treated in the emergency room.

Hizbullah’s anti-tank weapons are one of the most complex problems facing IDF troops in south Lebanon. In the past few years, Hizbullah has equipped itself with missile systems and other means against Israeli tanks, which are among the most advanced in the world. The terror group possesses “Fagot” and “Cornet” missiles with tandem warheads that can neutralize tank shields and destroy even the IDF’s advanced tanks.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...285821,00.html

[SgtMuhammed]

Only civilians and fools believe that anything is invincible.

Israel has never claimed that the Merkava couldn't die. In fact they expected it which is why they designed it to maximize crew survivability. Still, in combat men die, you just try to keep the number as managable as possible.

[Bewildered]

Hi,

I probably won't by CM:Shock Force, because of the kind of issues raised in this thread. Obviously I have views about recent events in the Lebanon, but that's not why I am writing this post. When I opened the thread, in trepidation, I half-expected the racist, ignorant,and sick, hatred I have seen on forums, on this topic, on other web-sites and which seem to have been allowed to carry on, even when they became completely tasteless. Reading this thread, I have noticed that despite a wide range of views , the debate has been thoughtful, restrained and devoid of the venomous hatred I have read elsewhere. I don't mean to interrupt the thread. I just wanted to say that it was a pleasure to read it. I still won't get CM:SF but that's quite a different issue. Forgive me if this comes across as condescending.

This is a thread I'll be happy to drop in on from time to time. I always (well mostly!) enjoy Combat Mission threads.

Thanks

Martin

[Peter Cairns]

Bewildered,

The reason the rest of us will buy CM:SF is because it will be

" thoughtful, restrained and devoid of the venomous hatred",

Like CM, it will be a thinking persons game.

Peter.

[Bewildered]

Hi Peter,

Good point. I'll keep an open mind, when it finally emerges. If not, I'll definetely grab the seond game. Anyway, I've interrupted your discussion, so I'll now just keep my trap shut!

Cheers

Martin

[MikeyD]

Bewildered, I recall BFC also had some initial resistance to 'CM:Barbarossa to Berlin' because some people didn't like the idea of playing a game with no 'good guys' (their characterization). But CMBB turned out to be a great tactical sim.

it sounds like CMSF is going to be a great way to do OPFOR testing on the current military doctrine. You could theoretically stick to Blue-on-Blue Quickbattles and still get your money's worth out of it.

With combat sims, whether its Romans versus Goths, Britons versus French, or American versus Syrians its going to portray two groups of people attempting to inflict harm on eachother. That's the nature of the beast. The alternative to a realistic tactical sim would be to buy a copy of "Grand Theft Auto" and see how many cops you can kill! :eek:

[Bewildered]

I think my son tried the first GTA when it came out. He nearly ended up killing the computer! Anyway, having killed off enough of practically everyone, he's now studying medicine. Preparing himself, I guess, for "Grand Theft Auto:ER".

Your point's well taken, and I'll have a good look at the game when it comes out, and see what mods you can come up with this time! See - I DO take notice!

Thanks

[John Kettler]

According to a pastiche of international news coverage this morning, Israel may or may not push for the Litani River. In the alternative, analysts believe the IDF may stop at some creek whose name I didn't catch and attempt to control ground by firepower from that intermediate location. The IDF sent some 50 AFVs into Gaza, meanwhile advancing what sounded like 6000 AFVs into Lebanon. Word is that the IDF is attempting to create a buffer zone, one in which all Hezbollah caves, tunnels, bunkers, caches and the like have been destroyed. To this end, combat engineers and heavy equipment have been brought in. Saw armored dozers and an EOD team myself, the latter blowing in place an apparent ex-Soviet AT mine of impressive size.

Israel was hit by some 223 rockets, wounding dozens,

but the counterrocket program (part of the 200+ airstrikes flown) apparently scored some wins as well, notably against what are claimed to be some of the longer ranged rockets.

IDF videos showed more of the fire and dash into a garage mode found on video oren_m provided links to--with the same results as before (building brought down in seconds). Also saw some video in which, even while under aerial attack, the Hezbollah rocket troops stayed at their task.

The new Human Rights Watch report blistered Israel

for killing men, women and children in several cases where extensive, detailed investigation showed there had been no Hezbollah presence anywhere nearby, for strikes whose military effect was nil while devastating civilians and their property, and for various other transgressions.

Israel has now backed off its prior position on Kana and now admits it has no evidence that Hezbollah was there. The situation in Lebanon has now become so inflamed that BBC News is now broadcasting on a much greater scale than usual.

I may not have all the details, but this is the gist of the reportage I saw.

Edit

The news tonight reported that Israel sustained a record 231 rocket hits yesterday (one killed, many wounded) and that today it was ~180, with 8 killed and dozens wounded.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 03, 2006, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

The fat is now in the fire! The I.A.F. hit the previously unhit Maronite Christian part of Beirut, in what some locals openly view as an attempt by Israel to destabilize the country. Israel has so far today taken 40 rocket hits, at least one of which today was a Syrian Type 302 with a 100 kg warhead. A total of seven such rockets have hit Israel, but the report was unclear as to when the other six hit. All seven may've been today, seeing as how the IDF spokesman said it was a "new type." The latest salvo has killed one more civilian, bringing the toll to 74. A Hezbollah fired ATGM killed two Israeli soldiers and seriously wounded an Israeli officer. According to one news report, the IDF

is now behind some of the Hezbollah positions near the border and has now trapped Hezbollah fighters in their fortified positions by sealing off their withdrawal routes. They are expected to be squeezed remorselessly between forces guarding the border and IDF forces in Lebanon. Video showed Israeli troops with two blindfolded Hezboollah prisoners.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Cary]

Originally posted by SSgt Viljuri:

Hortlund wrote: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do not kid yourself about the usefulness of light infantry vs a modern army.

If you are talking about mech heavy forces vs. light infantry, in depends entirely on territory.

If engagement distances are only a few hundred meters at max, and usually much shorter, the mech heavy force will suffer considerable casualties, even if we wouldn't be talking about any FDF Jaeger Battalion v. A2-yellow scenario.

</font>

[frieze]

Just to back up to the stated topic of the post for a second, does anyone have any insight into the tactics used by the israelis in these situations? I have to assume that serving IDF members will be a bit reticent about this but I know that Hizbullah isn't the only group that's been preparing for this conflict for the past few years. Does anyone have any insight into what the unique challenges are in moving forces of the composition the israelis have (mostly armor and armor supported infantry is what things look like to me) against an enemy relying more on anti-tank weapons and small arms? Given that they have the task of a)looking for Hizbullah fighters and b)finding and destroying rocket caches, what size groups would you think made sense to deploy on individual missions? And how much has the strategic play of destroying lebanese infrastructure (bridges and roads primarily) in order to hurt resupply and troop movement altered the battlespace to the israeli's disadvantage tactically since they are using a more armored force?

[John Kettler]

frieze,

I think you're more than a bit confused about what Israel is doing and where. Ground combat operations

so far extend only a few miles into Lebanon, but the attacks on infrastructure are hitting Beirut airport, POL, bridges connecting with Syria, key highway junctions. Most recently, four bridges in the Maronite sector of Beirut were dropped.

These strikes, believed to be for preventing exfil of captured IDF troops, prevent resupply, and to punish the Lebanese government, need to be distinguished from the much closer to the border strikes directed at Hezbollah strongpoints, Katyusha launchers and the like.

The former do not materially affect Israeli mechanized operations, but the latter can. It should be noted, though, that the armored units near the border have considerable combat engineering support, including heavily armored bulldozers, and apparently aren't being sent into such areas until sanitizing infantry has done its work. Available reports indicate that AFV are being hit from considerable standoff by ATGMs firing down into the defended villages from the huills above. From what I can tell, once an area has been cleared, the engineers come in, systematically search for Hezbollah "improvements"

then blow them up or bulldoze them. The intent is to wipe out all things Hezbollah so painstakingly built up over a period of years.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Runyan99]

Not sure if this has been covered. Hizbollah has advanced weaponry, and are a real threat to the Israeli tanks.

"They (Hezbollah guerrillas) have some of the most advanced anti-tank missiles in the world," said Yossi Kuperwasser, a senior military intelligence officer who retired earlier this summer.

"This is not a militia, it's an infantry brigade with all the support units," Kuperwasser said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060805/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_hezbollah_s_missiles

[vincere]

There's a video article on CNN drawing parrallels from the current fighting to possible future conflict with Iran or Syria.

CNN

'How we would fight Iran.'

[John Kettler]

Hadera, Israel sustained four long range rocket attacks today in the deepest strike yet, 50 miles past the border and only 25 miles north of Tel Aviv. Israel has taken 40 hits total so far today. None killed, 9 wounded, and considerable property damage (shattered buildings, shredded and even burning cars). Haifa was also hit, with four known wounded. Hezbollah counterfire rocket landed ~500 yards away from MSNBC's reporter and nearby IDF artillery earlier in Metula(?), scorching the hill in the background via the resultant grass fire.

Since Israel attacked Beirut after Nasrullah said Hezbollah would attack Tel Aviv if Israel did so, Tel Aviv is bracing for an attack, and a Patriot PAC-3 battery is being brought in, even though its capability against the long range rockets is uncertain. Israel is claiming it got the Hadera launcher via a commando raid on Tyre (MSNBC Right Now), but Hezbollah is claiming it repelled the attack and hurt the commandos.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14196226/

Sidon has been leafleted by the I.A.F., warning the occupants to leave in anticipation of what is expected to be an attack in 24-48 hours. Deepest IDF ground force penetration is now 18 miles into Lebanon. Fighting was characterized as "bitter,"

and video showed IDF soldiers engaged in apparent house clearing. Hezbollah is claiming two Merkava kills, but Israel has so far only admitted to crew deaths and injuries as previously reported. I.A.F. has now apparently demolished the last remaining road links from Lebanon to Syria.

Regards,

John Kettler

[dan/california]

Hezbollah said"we want a war". The Israelis said "okay".

[oren_m]

Originally posted by dan/california:

Hezbollah said"we want a war". The Israelis said "okay".

I see it more like this:

Hizballah provokes Israel for 6 years since Israel left S. Lebanon in May 2000, Hizballah kiddnaping 2 Israeli soldiers and kills 8, Israel as a respones say: "We are now going to kick your ass so next time you'll remember what the IDF can do that you have forgot during the last 6 years".

Oren_m

[civdiv]

Sort of related;

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/ep15reuters.pdf

and then;

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s1644639.htm

[hoolaman]

erm, never mind

[Khane]

Cool Israeli paratroopers supplies/weapons carriers

[John Kettler]

Khane,

Well, U.S. Army mules featured prominently in the Italian campaign and in the Korean War, being able to go where vehicles couldn't, under wretched conditions, while carrying heavier loads than the same number of men could. ISTR llamas can't carry all that much each. Do you happen to know their rated load?

Regards,

John Kettler