Israeli ground tactics in S. Lebanon

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Alas we are bidding farewell to our Leo’s (and I think the Cannuks already have too).

We just got them back...

Apparently the move to wheeled guns has been sidelined in favour of retaining the Leopard C2 (which is not a Leopard 2, but a Leopard 1 with improved armour, turret, etc.) Good job, as we spent millions upgrading the Leos just before they announced they were getting rid of them.

[ July 25, 2006, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Peter Cairns]

Michael Dorosh,

That makes sense if the canadians are going for the C-17 as opposed to the A400 or ungrades like the C-130J.

Still at near $200m US a pop, the C-17 is an expensive option for sending a half dozen second line MBT's abroad every five years.

Canada would be better off sticking with C-130's Wheeled LAV-3's, and good quality infantry for backup and peacekeeping and let the US UK France and Italy, the people with Assault ships and heavy lift do the MBT element.

Having MBT's doesn't really make sense for domestic reasons, and now that there is no need to have them in Germany, you'll really only need them in a conlict like GW1 or OIF, and in those you will be beside people better placed to use them.

Peter.

[ July 25, 2006, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Peter Cairns ]

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Oh, there is another difference between the Arab vs. Israeli and Allies vs. Axis emotional matchup. Only a few wackos out there think that the Nazis were anything BUT the "bad guys". Some people had a problem with the Soviets vs. the Germans since the Soviets were not "good guys", but even not many objected from an emotional stance.

The conflict in the ME is entirely different. Gamers don't want to think about right and wrong when they sit down and play a game. They want to already know this so they can move on and get into the tactics. So a game that lacks "moral clarity" and has few opportunities for conventional tactics is a non-starter.

Incidentally, this is the same reason why Vietnam War games aren't all that popular and WWII games are.

Steve I can't believe that the BFC are as worried as you are making out about including the IDF vs Arabs, be that in Lebanon, Syria or against others that they can't simulate it. I mean CM:SF is not about some fantabulous place called Syriana, no it's not. It's with the US invading the actual Arab state of Syria while the US is currently in Iraq and you can't says that that is not 'on going', 'unclear' and controversial. Are you blind to this hypocracy or does the BFC collective just have seletive blinkers on?

As uninterested in another US-centric simulation that I am, I'm actually definately going to get my copy of CM:SF for the very reason that it will (somewhat hopefully) allow me to pretend to play out something like the War on Terror in ways that overly sensative people wont want to know about- emotionally. (Or rather that I don't want the placard weilding unwashed to know about!)

I really don't see the difference between just having the US attack Syria and having the IDF fighting the same or similar. IMHO these situations are both just as intractibly complicated these days as each other. This is for many different reasons, but also many that are related and some the same. I know you see all that at most levels, but huh?

What it is fine to depict the Nazis, the Russian Front, play Cowboys and Indians, US verses Syria but just don't mention the War, you know Vietnam and don't tackle anything of contestible consequence to others like an episode out of the Arab-Israeli conflict series. No don't, not our thang. O'h what's the word that I'm looking for? Umm, how very ethno-centric of you, shame. :mad:

PS I like Vietnam war games, cos it at least means that I'm not out to kill Germans yet again and with a cool sound track too. :cool:

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

peacekeeping

Canada hasn't done that in 15 years or so and has no plans to return to it - so why mention it? :confused:

[C'Rogers]

We chose Syria because two years ago we figured it was the most likely scenario in the near term.

May I make the recommendation that if you make another modern game years down the road you pursue a different logic. Instead go with "what's the least likely but still plausible scenario so we don't have to keep rewritting the story this time."

On the ethical nature of playing certain sides in war games, I never really understood. Its a game. The next CM could be CM: Schoolchildren vs. Nuns and if it stayed with BFC history of tactical soundness I wouldn't hesitate to get it.

[Peter Cairns]

So what have you been doing with the lowest defence expenditure in Nato ( excluding Iceland who don't have armed forces).

What was it Kennedy said During the Cuban missile crisis,

" And as ever the Canadians have offered us all possible assistance,... short of actual help".

Peter.

[gibsonm]

Well I think there are two Cannucks coming home from Afghanistan that might argue the point with you - if they could.

[Battlefront.com]

Zalgiris,

Are you blind to this hypocracy or does the BFC collective just have seletive blinkers on?

No, we just aren't brain dead stupid about how public perception works. You've also neatly missed commenting on my comments about why we are not simulating current events in Iraq and in Afghanistan. There is a fine line and we feel we are on one side of it. Putting in the IDF on a "cleansing mission" (their terminology, not mine) moves over that line. It also isn't "fun" in the eyes of probably... oh, I don't know, 98% of our potential audience. So why bother?

I really don't see the difference between just having the US attack Syria and having the IDF fighting the same or similar.

Because they are two entirely different scenarios. One is a fairly large scale and conventional, the other is fairly small scale and uncoventional. It's the unconventional emphasis more than anything that makes us want to have nothing to do with current events.

What it is fine to depict the Nazis, the Russian Front, play Cowboys and Indians, US verses Syria but just don't mention the War, you know Vietnam and don't tackle anything of contestible consequence to others like an episode out of the Arab-Israeli conflict series. No don't, not our thang. O'h what's the word that I'm looking for? Umm, how very ethno-centric of you, shame.

Reread my previous posts. I addressed these issues head on and quite rationally. As for "ethno-centric", well, the vast majority of our customers (the ones who pay our bills) are Americans. If they aren't interested in a game's topic, then we might as well not make it. That's simple economics, something which you'd understand if you were operating your own business. If you didn't, you'd soon be going out of business.

Steve

[vincere]

This link is to an article highlighting how the ground fighting is not going all Isreal's way.

At least three Merkava's destroyed.

Time

[dixon_el]

No tank is indestructible, there's no man that can't be killed. War isn't a cakewalk, its messy and dangerous on the frontline, even if the other guy is just armed with rocks.

[oren_m]

Originally posted by vincere:

This link is to an article highlighting how the ground fighting is not going all Isreal's way.

At least three Merkava's destroyed.

Time

Well, i know from first hand that the Mk.4 Merkavas were'nt destory, they were'nt even penetrated, the injuries were inflicted by the blast of the rocket hitting.

The Merkavas are still operational, only with new crews.

Oren_m

[V]

They have to make an IDF version of this game. They need to make a module for the very campaign Israel is fighting right now.

[Khane]

Originally posted by dixon_el:

No tank is indestructible, there's no man that can't be killed. War isn't a cakewalk, its messy and dangerous on the frontline, even if the other guy is just armed with rocks.

Bingo ! Well said dixon

In spite the Yom Kipur war of 1973 and our questionable and painful adventure in Lebanon in 1982 ,most Israelis (including me sometime) have a kind of "Six Days war" syndrome. If a military operation is not as swiping with a relatively low number of causalities like the Six Days war, it is viewed as a failure , almost the beginning of the end.

Khane

[wade_Angler]

Originally posted by oren_m:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by vincere:

This link is to an article highlighting how the ground fighting is not going all Isreal's way.

At least three Merkava's destroyed.

Time

Well, i know from first hand that the Mk.4 Merkavas were'nt destory, they were'nt even penetrated, the injuries were inflicted by the blast of the rocket hitting.

The Merkavas are still operational, only with new crews.

Oren_m </font>

[gibsonm]

“Hi Mum.”

I think this is now approaching the exact point Steve was making earlier about the topic being “emotionally charged”.

[John Kettler]

vincere,

Precisely the kind of detailed information we're not getting on the news!

oren_m,

Please cite your source or sources. Am sure you'd agree that what you're saying flatly contradicts the TIME report. Mind, I have my own issues with that publication, its founder, and journalistic approach.

wade_Angler,

While I think you raise some worthwhile points

which bear discussion, the way you're going about

it is likely to generate all sorts of unpleasantries, possibly resulting in closing this thread, which would be a loss to many of us from all over the world.

BTW, there's a big difference

between low intensity targeted special operations

and high intensity surges involving hundreds of sorties in a short period. It is precisely this sort of situation which shows every flaw in organization and procedures. Having said this, though, is not the same as saying I automatically

believe the Israeli government.

It was the Israeli government, after all, which had the supreme chutzpah and effrontery to knowingly, deliberately, and systematically attack the U.S.S. Liberty, in international waters, with colors flying, for hours on end by air (rockets and strafing) and sea (guns and torpedo attack), killing and wounding much of the crew, then daring to claim it was misidentification as an Egyptian ship (to which the Liberty bore no resemblance).

Rather than call the Israeli government to public account for its act of war, LBJ buried the whole thing.

Regards,

John Kettler

[mav1]

I dont see why you can not make a cm game based on the Arab Israeli of the wars of 1958, 67 and 73.

These battles were similar to the wars of ww2 but with more modern weapons. For me it would be more fun than usa against Syria in 2007. The battles with be even because the equipment was very equal between the sides (even though Israel won all three wars). Theres less of the disparaty of quility of equipment like the german tanks and the allied tanks of ww2 and the weaopons of the usa compared to Syria.

[Khane]

Originally posted by wade_Angler:

These guys have been operating Apaches on assassination missions in Gaza and the West Bank for the last 5 years, not a single malfunction.

Do you know from good sources that these pilots (I mean those who were in the Apaches that crashed because whatever causes) :

1. have been operating Apaches on assassination missions in Gaza and the West Bank for the last 5 years ?

2. that during these 5 years there were no crashes and no malfunctions ?

mid air collisions, electric cable encounters, mechanical malfunctions, pilot error, Bermuda factors, satanic wind shears_ say enemy fire, and we’ll castrate you, the Orens warn.

Say mid air collisions, electric cable encounters, mechanical malfunctions, pilot error, Bermuda factors, satanic wind shears malfunction and we’ll castrate you, the wade_Anglers warn

The 1967 war took Israel 6 days to defeat the 3 biggest Arab armies.

Don't tell me you believe this myth ,this JewishZionistImperialistTigerofPaper...etc propaganda.

At this rate, you’re gonna deplete our own munitions reserves. We’re gonna need 7 more US logistics attachés and a restructuring of our aids package just for your first 10 km...Israeli ground tactics in S. Lebanon? Somalia can do better sport.

Here you sense of humor (very cool,really) matches you hatred of anything Israeli.

By the way don't believe that the tsunami of 2004 that caused the death of killed approximately 230,000 people was a natural accident. The Zionist have succeeded ,until now at least, to hide the truth: it was a Zionist conspiracy. :eek:

Salamat and take care

Khane

[ July 26, 2006, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Khane ]

[oren_m]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

oren_m,

Please cite your source or sources. Am sure you'd agree that what you're saying flatly contradicts the TIME report. Mind, I have my own issues with that publication, its founder, and journalistic approach.

I know many people in the IDF who some of them are in lebanon, including my brother who's an infantry soldier, so when i say first hand, i really mean it.

Khane, you're doing here a hell of a job, great going!

Oren_m

[gibsonm]

Well its looks to me like a case of a defence force organised to defend against and launch “symmetric” attacks facing an “asymmetric” opponent.

[Khane]

Originally posted by oren_m:

you're doing here a hell of a job,

Thanks Oren. It seems that my take about all that Lebanon stuff is different than yours. I don't buy the official version of the how and why of the events as they are given by our government officials but I cannot but respond to the blind hatred against Israel. I love to live in this country and it is very important for me; that's why I criticize the politics of its government when I think it's a wrong one but that's also why I respond to disgusting hate posts like those directed toward you.

Right now it seems that a hell of a battle in going in Bint Jbeil. I was in Lebanon in there in 1982 as a reservist and during a few other reserve periods the following years (I was what we call in Hebrew a "RPGist"). I remember that already during these reserve periods we considered the Hezbollah fighters as excellent. Knowing their determination and knowing Bint Jbeil itself I am not surprised of the intensity of the fight there; the Hezbollah is giving a good fight. Bint Jbeil will fall with a heavy price but I hope the less heavy as possible; this battle will certainly be remembered by the Hezbollah as a heroic stand against superior forces and by us as a fierce battle in which we learned a lot.

Khane

[ July 26, 2006, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Khane ]

[Battlefront.com]

wade_Angler

Can you believe this guy? He’s bringing the Israeli lying machine to these boards. I mean the deceptive fiber of this country and its audacity to insult the intelligence of the cosmos in uncanny indeed.

Watch your tone.

As already explained above, Oren is not some sort of uninformed git (unlike others) who are just spouting off beliefs that are based on pre-established bias. He is a tanker in the IDF, which is a relatively small armed force. I'd be SHOCKED to find out that he doesn't have "first hand information" about these issues.

Having said that, I'm curious to know which of the tank attacks yeilded what kind of results. I don't trust Time or the popular media to report these things accurately. Remember folks, these are the people that think anything with tracks or a turret is a "tank", anything that shoots at a tank is an RPG, and that an IED is something that is measured in weight only (not the composition). In short... I trust the media to report on the overall character of incidents, not details of them.

Steve

[Jussi Köhler]

From the Beeb:

A senior Irish soldier working for the UN forces had warned the Israelis six times that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff, Ireland's foreign ministry said.

Had Israel responded to the requests, "rather than deliberately ignoring them", the observers would still be alive, a diplomat familiar with the report said.

"First hand" information seems to believe that Israel couldnt have cared less about killing a few UN observers, and Kofi Annan was correct when he stated that the attacks were deliberate.

What kind of pills are they popping as their testosterone levels seem to be off the charts..?

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, I think it is pretty clear that both the Hezbollah and Israeli "official" stories about why this conflict is happening now are just that... stories. Both sides have been getting ready for this event for some time now. All other issues aside (and there are many issues), this is a conflict that must happen because both sides wish it to happen. The question is will this get out of control and create a larger conflict or will it be contained? Time will tell, but we're keeping our storyline for CM:SF open to all possibilities.

Oh, and I forgot to reply to mav_1's post:

I dont see why you can not make a cm game based on the Arab Israeli of the wars of 1958, 67 and 73.

Because we'd sell a couple hundred copies, that's why There are certain conflicts that we simply doubt we can get people interested in. Three of them are the ones you mentioned, but there are more on that list than that. In fact, most conflicts are on that list. Even the fairly large, conventional Korean War is on the "weak sales potential" list. Perhaps they shouldn't be, but we don't make that decision. Customers do. We have enough experience to know what is worth doing and what isn't, and the Arab/Israeli conflicts are non starters from a sales standpoint.

Steve

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As already explained above, Oren is not some sort of uninformed git (unlike others) who are just spouting off beliefs that are based on pre-established bias. He is a tanker in the IDF, which is a relatively small armed force. I'd be SHOCKED to find out that he doesn't have "first hand information" about these issues.

You are absolutely correct, Steve. I am a git when it comes to middle eastern tactics & equipment and I have no clue whether the Merkavas were destroyed or not. I believe that they are one hell-of-a vehicle, very practical for a defence force, but a little heavy for air deployment. In fact I'd love to see them in CMSF!

One thing that will never be removed from an account of a situation is a lack of objectivity. It is rare case when two people who witness an event document the identical details of said event. Even eye witness accounts to an air crash usually disagree with each other. The FAA can take months, even years to determine exactly what happened and that is only because they are mandated to do so.

In this situation, you have someone who obviously has concerns for the safety of himself or his family, who also *may or may not * have prejudged the situation based on information from his peers and government. I personally would be just a little cynical before accepting it as the absolute truth. I mean no offence to anyone, I just like to see independent documentation or some other proof before accepting any data. I'm not picking on Oren, I don't fully trust articles in TIME magazine, CNN or the BBC either.

I hope we can all leave politics at home where it belongs. If there's one thing we can all disagree about, it is politics...!