Israeli ground tactics in S. Lebanon

[Khane]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Do you happen to know their rated load?

No idea but what I happen to know is that they are not only used to transport supplies but also as a very powerful weapon : they spit at enemies.

Khane

[Cary]

Originally posted by Khane:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John Kettler:

Do you happen to know their rated load?

No idea but what I happen to know is that they are not only used to transport supplies but also as a very powerful weapon : they spit at enemies.

Khane </font>

[Khane]

Originally posted by Cary:

the ears stand to attention quite nicely.

I forgot that one. What a versatile weapon :eek:

Khane

[Battlefront.com]

Khane, what I find more funny are the hats these guys are wearing. Pardon me for being a uniform snob, but this headgear screams "clueless tourist" and not "elite paratrooper"

Steve

[Dogface]

Do you mean the shower caps?

I've been wondering about them.

[Khane]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Khane, what I find more funny are the hats these guys are wearing. Pardon me for being a uniform snob, but this headgear screams "clueless tourist" and not "elite paratrooper"

Steve, that's more or less the way I looked when I was in the IDF. Shame on me

I don't know if this specific black hat of the first paratrooper in the photo is a genuine IDF one but this "funny" hat is not different than the one I was sometime wearing when I was in the army. According the photo I guess that these soldiers are training or on their way back from training but certainly not in a combat area. In general Israeli combat unit soldiers are not big "uniform snobs". The more elite the unit is , the less "uniform snobs" the soldiers are.

New recruits. This photo is one of fresh new recruits , candidates for a elite unit, during a test before being accepted to training school.

Training

IDF "Raful" bush hat

Eite unit candidates on their first day test

Elite unit canditates

Elite unit soldier with "funny" hat

By the way this Israeli special forces site may interest you; a lot of photos with a lot of "clueless tourists"

Khane

[ August 09, 2006, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: Khane ]

[John Kettler]

The source is new to me,

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/faqs/93.shtml

but the graphic provides a perspective on the scope and scale of Israeli strikes in Lebanon wholly unlike and beyond

anything I've seen in all the mass media combined.

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/maps/469.shtml

Had no idea they were so extensive and wide ranging!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 09, 2006, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

Earlier today, the I.A.F. shot down a Hezbollah UAV over the Mediterranean. Some say it could carry four pounds of explosives, others one hundred pounds. No word yet on whether it had any explosives, but camouflage painted debris was shown on camera, as was footage of the shootdown.

~150 rockets struck Israel today, with Israeli police reporting two wounded. The IDF suffered two WIA from a Hezbollah ATGM. Heavy combat is in progress in Lebanon following a major new IDF push involving heavy armor. Night footage showed outbound tank main gun tracer and impact detonations. The I.A.F. struck a Palestinian refugee camp in Beirut, according to the IDF, in an attack against a Hezboollah leader's house there. There has been an IDF command shakeup regarding the Lebanon ops, but I think we should ask oren_m to explain that.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Was looking for WW II Katyusha footage on YouTube, but found none, other than an RTS game. I did, though, find this massive collection of Lebanon related Katyusha footage: in firing position, firing, being attacked, damage in Israel, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=katyusha&search_sort=relevance&search_category=0&page=1

Regards,

John Kettler

[Khane]

John,

Two analysis about the command problem in the Northern command

A babysitter up north

There appears to be a command problem in the north

Khane

[John Kettler]

Khane,

Will have a look at the links. Thanks!

People,

C-SPAN-2 is right now (6:19 a.m. PST) running a major panel discussion at the Nixon Center

(www.nixoncenter.org) called Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran. Visiting military fellow IDF BG Michael Herzog has been prominently featured and has provided some useful information about the Lebanon War.

He said that intelligence on Hezbollah's long range rockets was very good and estimates that Israel destroyed 70% of those on day one. Tactically, though, he said there had been surprises, noting the attack on INS Hanit (not by name) and the wholly unexpected level of Hezbollah fortifications, weapon caches, command bunkers and the like all along the border. Said nothing about Hezbollah use of ATGMs as general casualty producers. He did say, though, that he expects

Hassan Nasrullah to attempt to cap current operations with a rocket attack on Tel Aviv, in light of its huge symbolic importance and value in legitimizing his organization in many eyes. Such an attack would, according to him, use the remaining 30% of the original long range rocket arsenal. This isn't the real problem, though. The real problem lies in the estimated 9000 remaining Katyusha rockets, despite Herzog's assertion that the Israelis are hitting the launchers in only four minutes after first launch detection. Herzog claims that 80% of all IDF airstrikes have been directed against Hezbollah directly, with the remaining 20% directed against assets usable by Hezbollah for resupply, maneuvering forces, etc.

In related matters, IDF fast patrol boats shelled a Palestinian refugee camp in Beirut.

Edit

The panel discussion just ended.

C-SPAN-2 is now airing a major briefing at the National Press Club by the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition

in preparation for a huge protest August 12 against the war in Lebanon, what Israel is doing to Lebanon and her people, and what the U.S. is and has been doing to support Israel's military. Brian Becker is laying out the full extent of the devastation and horror, telling the story all but ignored by our mass media.

http://answer.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=ANS_about_us

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 09, 2006, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

Israel's cabinet has authorized ground advances as far as the Litani River, if needed. The new ground offensive originates from Metula and is focused on Al Kaim (sp), a Hezbollah stronghold and major symbolic point because many Hezbollah members were decades earlier incarcerated in a prison there run by Israel's proxies. The fight for Bint Jbeil rages on, and the IDF has officially admitted to evacuating 30 light and medium WIA from there today.

Hassan Nasrallah has told the Israelis that if they continue to push into Southern Lebanon it will become their graveyard. He also told Arabs in Haifa to leave before Haifa receives a rocket barrage. CNN also reports 70 bridges in Lebanon have been destroyed. Oh, and Pat Robertson has his eschatological oar in the water, is in Israel, and has met with Ehud Olmert. Robertson is convinced that the Book of Ezekiel describes what's going on.

Edit

Breaking news! Israel's reporting that the IDF has confirmed killing members of the the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, evidenced by papers recovered on the bodies. IDF reports 15 KIA today, the worst single day military fatalities since the war began, also 38 WIA.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 09, 2006, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[akd]

8/9/06 - 11 a.m. – Tank destroyed by missile

Four soldiers were killed before noon Wednesday after an antitank missile fired by Hizbullah gunmen hit and destroyed an IDF tank in the village of Aita al-Shaab. The soldiers' families have been notified of their death.

The tank that was struck belonged to the 847 reserve brigade, which has been operating in the sector under the command of the Carmeli reserve brigade. IDF sources reported that immediately after the attack the tank caught fire and soldiers were unable to approach it.

IDF sources assessed that a Kornet-type missile hit the tank, probably from close range. The fire that had erupted in the tank led officials to believe that the tanks' fire extinguisher system had failed to function.

"Hizbullah's gunmen are using modern missiles. Unfortunately, in this case, the missile hit the tank and caused the death of the four crewmen," an official explained.

1:30 p.m. – Soldiers trapped underneath building

Nine elite IDF unit soldiers were killed, seven troops have been seriously injured, and 10 sustained light to moderate wounds after a building they were staying in collapsed as a result of a missile strike in the Lebanese village of Dibel.

Shortly after 1 p.m. Hizbullah gunmen fired several missiles at a structure in which the soldiers were staying. One missile hit the building, causing an arms cache to explode. Several soldiers were hurt as a result. A short while later, the structure partially collapsed, and a few other troops were hurt as well.

The forces on the ground reported of difficulties in rescuing the soldiers that have been buried underneat5h the rubble. Home Front Command units stationed in northern Israel have also been placed on high alert in case they need to enter Lebanon and assist with the rescue efforts.

www.ynetnews.com

Two Israeli tanks on fire after a Hezbollah attack while they were advancing to a new position in the town of Marjayoun in South Lebanon early Thursday morning Aug. 10, 2006. There is no immediate information on casualties. Israeli troops, backed by tanks and armored vehicles, took the key south Lebanon town of Marjayoun early Thursday just hours before a senior Israeli official announced that the military would hold off expanding its ground offensive to give diplomacy a chance. (AP Photo/Lotfallah Daher)

Heavy tolls from Hezbollah AT teams. Certainly the same would be expected in the scenario of a Syria op. The older (Reserve?) Merkavas seem to be suffering most under the threat, although use of AT missiles as uber-snipers against dismounted troops, particularly as they are clearing recently vacated structures is proving deadly, as well.

Some captured Hezbollah arms (obviously most came from, or through, Syria):

[akd]

Some more:

Looks like an RPG-29 rocket behind the mortar.

ANTI-TANK MISSILES

Small teams of trained fighters have used advanced missiles to knock out the formidable Merkava tank, and older versions to punch through the walls of houses sheltering Israeli soldiers.

Most are Saggers, an outdated Soviet wire-guided missile first used in the 1960s. In the late 1990s Hezbollah began firing more accurate wire-guided TOW anti-tank missiles. In this war, Hezbollah has for the first time used the Russian Metis-M, which has a range of a mile and can be fitted with an anti-armour warhead or a fuel-air explosive warhead to use against troops or bunkers. Hezbollah may also be using the laser-guided Kornet-E anti-tank missile, which has a range of about 3.5 miles.

Individual Hezbollah fighters carry the shoulder-fired RPG29, a more advanced version of the RPG7 beloved of guerrilla groups since the 1960s. It has a dual-purpose warhead. "The first punches through the armour and the second is aimed at the personnel," Elias Hanna, a retired Lebanese general, said.

Hezbollah's ability to knock out Merkava tanks has frustrated the traditional Israeli militaries doctrine of rapid armoured thrusts deep into enemy territory.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2...ent_661337.htm

[ August 10, 2006, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: akd ]

[John Kettler]

akd,

Terrific pictures, some of which really take me back! In my Hughes Missile System Group days, you see, I worked on the TOW in several analyses covering various mounts and missile models. A report alleging Hezbollah TOW use is one thing, but seeing the familiar launcher is something else again. This appears to be the Gen One version with no special night sight fitted. Am not sure what to make, though, of the missile crates dated 2001. This would suggest a much nastier TOW version than the original one, likely something in the full caliber w/ standoff probe TOW 2 family designed to deal with modern armor, a family which includes models designed to defeat ERA or even attack from the top. As I recall, the TOW 2 could be fired from the original launchers, but because of tracker issues, could not be used through battlefield smoke, since the original tracker (1.06 microns, to see a xenon beacon) didn't work in the 8-12 micron band, which is where the "waffle iron" IR beacon fitted to all TOW 2s in addition to the xenon beacon emitted.

I was also the in house Soviet Threat Analyst, so the AT-3 SAGGER and I are old acquaintances, and when I left the defense field in the middle of 1989, the AT numbers went up through AT-7 SAXHORN, a Dragon equivalent, with everything else in the not yet officially admitted category. Must say that I'm still at sea without the ASCC designators and code names. The Russian names and forbidding manufacturer's designators just don't come easily to me after so many years of the NATO standard system.

I think your pictures will be a great help to KwazyDog and his minions. I didn't have imagery that good back when I had clearances, and certainly not in high resolution color!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ August 10, 2006, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Imperial Grunt]

In general Israeli combat unit soldiers are not big "uniform snobs". The more elite the unit is , the less "uniform snobs" the soldiers are.

Khane [/QB]

[akd]

Captured Hezbollah "surveillance post":

[Rob Ross]

LMAO. A truly terrifying combination of bad self-assemble home office furniture and crap self-built amateur radio gear. Also have to mention the 33MHz PC and the 1970s telephones. It looks like my study would do if the wife went away for a month.

I guess it was 'captured' because its operator died strangled amongst the wiring. However, they could have captured something a bit more impressive than a mad recluse's toyroom by now.

Well, I can see why Israel needs to spend many billion of US tax payers money on high tech weapon systems, not. Still can't see why so many innocent people have to die.

[Khane]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

Well then that would mean that the Israel reserve forces are more elite that their SOF units, Airborne units, and Golani Division. They have very loose uniform and grooming standards.

No at all, that would only mean that in general a Israeli reserve forces reservist has looser uniform and grooming standards than his fellow conscript soldier of the same unit. I said "the more elite the unit is , the less "uniform snobs" the soldiers are" and not "the less uniform snob a soldier is , the more elite he is."

Many elite combat formations around the world can be uniform snobs.

Sure they can be, why not; I don't see how it contradicts what I said. Where did I say that you can't be an excellent elite unit soldier if you are uniform snob or that loose uniform and grooming standards are IDF prerequisites for being an elite combat unite soldier? Being a uniform snob or not being a uniform snob is one thing and being an excellent fighter is an other thing.

Khane

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Khane:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

Well then that would mean that the Israel reserve forces are more elite that their SOF units, Airborne units, and Golani Division. They have very loose uniform and grooming standards.

No at all, that would only mean that in general a Israeli reserve forces reservist has looser uniform and grooming standards than his fellow conscript soldier of the same unit. I said "the more elite the unit is , the less "uniform snobs" the soldiers are" and not "the less uniform snob a soldier is , the more elite he is."

Many elite combat formations around the world can be uniform snobs.

Sure they can be, why not; I don't see how it contradicts what I said. Where did I say that you can't be an excellent elite unit soldier if you are uniform snob or that loose uniform and grooming standards are IDF prerequisites for being an elite combat unite soldier? Being a uniform snob or not being a uniform snob is one thing and being an excellent fighter is an other thing.

Khane </font>

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by Rob Ross:

LMAO. A truly terrifying combination of bad self-assemble home office furniture and crap self-built amateur radio gear. Also have to mention the 33MHz PC and the 1970s telephones. It looks like my study would do if the wife went away for a month.

I guess it was 'captured' because its operator died strangled amongst the wiring. However, they could have captured something a bit more impressive than a mad recluse's toyroom by now.

Well, I can see why Israel needs to spend many billion of US tax payers money on high tech weapon systems, not. Still can't see why so many innocent people have to die.

Actually that is a pretty fancy set up for an Arab force and it looks like it was all functional, although completely unorganized in a Western mind.

[dan/california]

Everybody missed the real point, it was in a regular civilian house as near as I could tell from the interior views. Hezbollah doing things like that is why the IDF is systematically demolishing Southern Lenanon. You don't take fire many times from bunkers that look like houses before houses start to look like bunkers. I think the Israelis would be perfectly justified in cluster bombing it all. I think Bomber Harris called it de-housing.

[Imperial Grunt]

Of course they are all houses...just like Iraq.

CM:SF should portray the same thing.

[Khane]

Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

OK, you win and I am confused.

Nobody wins and nobody loses. Only a misunderstanding

Khane

[Melnibone]

Some more armour pictures here