Please don't model US soldiers wearing Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor

[hejhog]

maybe i missed this, but noone could tell where NBC got its interceptor to test. None of the Manufacturers would admit giving them any. you guys need to see why the army banned it- especially with in regards to what diesel fuel did to its adhesive qualities. also, there is only 2 places in America qualified to do those kind of tests... they didn't use either of them, and why?

and the Navy guy they seem to have as a poster boy for this is a g@ddamn dentist. wow, he must have learned a lot about body armor in dentist school. i guess i'll have to ask my dentist about it too.

but on the flip side, i wore 2 vests when i was in Iraq, an under shirt type and the old standard issue flak vest. if i thought that dragon skin was better, i'd wear it too, despite the wieght. the army shouldn't be so secretive about it's testing also.

finally if the military would quit investing in bullsh@t weapons systems like the F22, and spend the money on the troops in the field now, and develop weapons or use existing weapons (can you say trophy anyone) to assist in the type of war we're fighting now, we'd be a lot better off. seems like this is the face of war, for at least a few years. but i guess the Military Industrial Complex doesnt like that.

ah well, alcohol induced rant here. disregard any idiocy on my part lol

[John Kettler]

A friend of mine sent me this just today. Seems rather topical! Many video segments.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=925

Regards,

John Kettler

[tiny_tanker]

Those are some interesting articles John, really makes me question the merits and the validity of the armies tests. From the results of the NIJ tests I'd take Dragon skin over Interceptor no matter what the small increase in weight.

[Darius359au]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

Those are some interesting articles John, really makes me question the merits and the validity of the armies tests. From the results of the NIJ tests I'd take Dragon skin over Interceptor no matter what the small increase in weight.

Little increase in weight? 20+ pounds isnt a little increase in weight , especially with all the other crap youve got to carry around.

[tiny_tanker]

I think those numbers are way off base. Even going off what John just posted, 4.6lbs for a 10"x12" section of Interceptor armor and 4.9lbs for the same in Dragon skin. Looks very similar to me, thats also where I got my slight increase from. Wouldn't be the first time the army has lied of unfairly tested something because someone had a pet project they wanted to use instead. At least the Air Force looks to be still wanting to get Dragon skin, good on'em.

[Darius359au]

Interesting read here

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003506.html

espesially the pdf with the test results

[flamingknives]

I just found this:

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm

Which I think covers the issues involved quite well.

[tiny_tanker]

Not to change the subject but has anyone heard of paraclete body armor? It is apparently used by a few Air Forces personnel. Specifically TacP's, combat air controllers , people who do dangerous things with dangerous people. Anyway, I was speaking to one of these people who is embedded with the army and had asked him random questions about his job, and the armor issue came up. He compared it to the interceptor armor for me. He said that it was less bulky, weighed less, and provided better protection, keep in mind he has been working with the army pretty much since he joined the Air Force, he wears ACU's, carries the same kit as the army guys he's with, goes where they go, does what they do. So why isn't this armor being considered by the army? Am I missing some vital bit of information here, or is the Army just sticking with their pet project to save face?

Also very interesting article flamingknives, I will have to read over it more closely.

[ChrisND]

Some guys in my unit, and attached to, swore by paraclete armor. Even bought it themselves. From what I remember though it wasn't so much for it's protection as it was just the all-around excellent design features, although I wouldn't be surprised if paraclete has better protection, but I don't know.

[Sgt Joch]

what type of body armour is that VIP wearing? (Def Sec Gates in Baghdad yesterday).

[Lee]

Well, guess what, it seems the NBC story on the Dragon Skin armor was a pack of lies. Apparently NBC didn't listen to the tons of evidence that the Army provided them about the test results they got with the other types of armored vests and Dragon Skin, and didn't even follow the standard army test procedures, or even use the correct armor insert plate the Army actually uses in it's own vests, when the supposed "fair test" of the Army armored vest vs the Dragon Skin vest was conducted. Check out the link below to watch a video that shows the details of the new follow up on this story.

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, this is NBC after all, and we've come to expect this sort of garbage from liberal news organizations. Anything to harm the image of the military, I guess.

Like that idiot General Wesley Clark on CNN just before our troops crossed the border into Iraq from Kuwait, claiming that the gas masks they had didn't work right, and if Saddam fired chemical weapons at them that they wouldn't be protected since the masks were defective. Which also turned out to be a lie, our troops had extremely high quality gas masks to wear as they launched the invasion into Iraq. But it's just the sort of thing that needlessly worries and undermines the morale of our troops right when they are about to go to war and their lives could depend on that equipment. But, let's not forget, General Clark was preparing to run for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004 at the time (which was pointed out by at least one other Army or Marine General live on t.v. in 2003 as Clark was making such statements just before the invasion of Iraq), so I guess he had to score his points with the socialists before he announced his candidacy. Why Fox News has hired this moron as a contributor now is beyond me, I can only guess they are trying so hard to bend over backwards to be "fair and balanced" that they are willing to hire such imbeciles just to prove the point.

So it seems the Interceptor vest (which I gather was deemed the best available by the military after testing, even for use in high temperature environments (no heat-induced ballistic protection failures, as reported with Dragon Skin)) may indeed be the best overall armored vests (within reasonable weight limits) our troops could be wearing. That's good to know, since our men on the front lines deserve top-quality protection.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/03/new-vent-nbcs-emotional-terrorism/

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

what type of body armour is that VIP wearing? (Def Sec Gates in Baghdad yesterday).

That's not body armour, that's an explosive belt. The Secretary doesn't believe in passive defense.

[MikeyD]

"I suppose we shouldn't be surprised ...we've come to expect this sort of garbage from liberal news organizations."

Let me guess. You were dropped on your head as a child by your foster parents, right? You rant about "Liiberal Media" as though such a thing existed. I suppose you think that fascist foreigner Rupert Murdoch didn't cheerlead us into this fiasco from the beginning? You 30-percenter dead-ender wingnuts are a real hoot.

[Finnius Mack]

Originally posted by Lee:

Like that idiot General Wesley Clark on CNN just before our troops crossed the border into Iraq from Kuwait, claiming that the gas masks they had didn't work right, and if Saddam fired chemical weapons at them that they wouldn't be protected since the masks were defective.

I hadn't heard of this before, so did a quick google. Is this the exchange you're referring to?

ZAHN: You say the equipment is good enough to fight under those circumstances. And yet I know you're familiar with the General Accounting audit that came out a report that suggested that there are defects in many of the masks that our soldiers are wearing, in addition to the chemical suits. And you have Congressman Christopher Shays saying he has expressed concern about the matter and that very little attention has been paid to protecting our troops from chemical and biological attacks if we go to war.

Do you agree with his assessment?

CLARK: Well I -- certainly, there have been some problems with the manufacturer of the equipment. And we've always been concerned about the gas mask, the filters, making sure you've got the right filters, some of the agents that are very small in size. A decade ago, it was rumored they would penetrate the gas masks. We've changed the masks, we've changed the filters. And we're continuing to work these things.

There's no magic solution though. Protecting against chemical agents or biological agents requires a whole system in place and lots of individual activities. And occasionally, soldiers will damage their suits or the plastic visor in the mask will be -- someone will sit on it and it will be cracked or they'll have the wrong filter in. And so it's a matter of the chain of command's responsibility to check and double check and recheck, again, to make sure every soldier has what he needs and is properly prepared for the environment.

ZAHN: General Wesley Clark, thanks so much for joining us. I'm not even going to ask you if you're going to run for president or not, because I know you're not going to answer.

CLARK: That's right.

[Battlefront.com]

Lee,

I suppose we shouldn't be surprised, this is NBC after all, and we've come to expect this sort of garbage from liberal news organizations. Anything to harm the image of the military, I guess.

I would be laughing at cracks like this if I didn't think you honestly believed it. Since you do apparently believe this stuff, I just feel pitty. The "fair and balanaced" press you likely listen to is probably still talking about how well the war in Iraq is going. They've been "fair and balanced" so far, after all.

BTW, it Fox that had a reporter (the loathsome Geraldo) that actually told the enemy where to find our troops during OIF1. Does this make them part of the Liberal Media Conspiracy? I guess it does. At least when Geraldo was "reporting from the front" in Afghanistan he actually was miles away from where he said he was, therefore he could't do as much harm.

Steve

[tiny_tanker]

What the hell does the liberal media have to do with body armor! This would be reactionist media if anything and besides the point either way.

The real question is: do the JTACs in the game have paraclete armor? Also are they modeled as army in ACU's or in the new ABU's as they should be?

[Battlefront.com]

After years of doing what I do, I've come to the conclusion that if I had $5 to bet on the "liberal media" telling the truth or the Military Industrial Complex (Congress, Pentagon, Contractors, etc)... I'd put my money on the "liberal media" every time. The level of fraud, misrepresentation, rigged tests, wasteful spending, etc. is staggering. For example, here is a quote from a news story on the NBC report:

Military officials have acknowledged that some troops — often National Guard or Reservists — went to war with lesser-quality protective gear than other soldiers were issued.

"We'll be upfront and recognize that at the start of the conflict there were some soldiers that didn't have the levels of protection that we wanted," Spoehr said. Now, he added, "we can categorically say that whatever you're going to buy isn't as good as what you're going to get" from the military.

Then again, this probably a lie by the "liberal media". Afterall, this hateful anti-troop slurs came from Fox News. Burn in Hell Murdoch, you left wing pinko commie troop hating scumbag!

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

hejhog,

ah well, alcohol induced rant here. disregard any idiocy on my part

Didn't see any idiocy in your rant. The amount of waste and mismanagement in the military in general, but the Army especially, is indefensible. Chopping a Billion out of the FCS program was a good start, but it would be nice to have all traces of Star Wars obliterated and a refund to those who spent money on it (i.e. us). Oh, and same thing about SDI, that sucks almost as bad as the last three movies did

tiny_tanker,

Also are they modeled as army in ACU's or in the new ABU's as they should be?

If I am not mistaken they wear ACUs, just like Navy Corpsmen wear MARPAT instead of 3 Color DCUs. A rule of thumb in the field is to not look special. An enemy sniper seeing a guy with a headset and a totally different uniform would likely be a target vs. anybody else in his field of vision.

Plus, the new Air Force uniform aren't meant to be worn in the field (especially an Arid one). 3 Color DCUs are still intended to be standad issue for Air Force personnel in the field even after the new uniform is issued.

Steve

[ July 07, 2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[metalbrew]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

After years of doing what I do, I've come to the conclusion that if I had $5 to bet on the "liberal media" telling the truth or the Military Industrial Complex (Congress, Pentagon, Contractors, etc)... I'd put my money on the "liberal media" every time.

That's the essence of my opinion too. I don't like the media monkeys one bit but unfortunately Uncle Sam can't be trusted.

[Mikko H.]

This is one of the contrasts between the world's only superpower and us Scandinavians: whenever we in Finland have an opinion poll about 'what institution do you trust most?', the top two are always the Police and Defense Forces (not necessarily in this order, but you get my drift).

Perhaps we're just hopelessly brainwashed.

[tiny_tanker]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

tiny_tanker,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Also are they modeled as army in ACU's or in the new ABU's as they should be?

If I am not mistaken they wear ACUs, just like Navy Corpsmen wear MARPAT instead of 3 Color DCUs. A rule of thumb in the field is to not look special. An enemy sniper seeing a guy with a headset and a totally different uniform would likely be a target vs. anybody else in his field of vision.

Plus, the new Air Force uniform aren't meant to be worn in the field (especially an Arid one). 3 Color DCUs are still intended to be standad issue for Air Force personnel in the field even after the new uniform is issued.

Steve </font>

[Battlefront.com]

Tiny_tanker,

Interesting! When the uniform was first announced (several years ago) they said it was to be base use only. Which begged the question "why bother?". Typical DoD idiocy. They make something for one thing and then, after they have adopted it but before they've issued it, they change the "mission statement". The uniform is not well suited for an arid environment, which isn't surprising since it wasn't designed for one.

Mikko,

Perhaps we're just hopelessly brainwashed.

If Finland had trillions of Dollars being spent on Defense related stuff, I'm sure you'd have a much lower opinion of your Defense Forces' commitment to the best quality equipment for each Dollar spent. As the budgets go up, so too does the corruption.

Also, don't mistake distrust and dislike of the Military Industrial Complex (civilian and military politicians, plus contractors) with a dislike of the Armed Forces themselves. There is a big distinction. As Heghog put it in his drunken rant , the priorities in the Army are nearly opposite to what they need to be. The Marines, on the other hand, are much closer to optimal. That's mostly because the Army, Air Force, and Navy (propper) budgets leave the Marines only funding scraps. You can't buy efficiency and accountability, but you can buy a lot of useless stuff and people.

Steve

[benpark]

I don't think that fat geezer at the left of the picture above has a chance in hades of surviving a crotch shot with all parts intact.

Wasn't he also in "Office Space"?

[Guinnessman]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

After years of doing what I do, I've come to the conclusion that if I had $5 to bet on the "liberal media" telling the truth or the Military Industrial Complex (Congress, Pentagon, Contractors, etc)... I'd put my money on the "liberal media" every time. The level of fraud, misrepresentation, rigged tests, wasteful spending, etc. is staggering.

Steve

Isn't THAT the truth. The Ministry of Defence here in the UK is exactly the same. Just look at all the fudged test results for the SA80....

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Guinnessman:

Isn't THAT the truth. The Ministry of Defence here in the UK is exactly the same. Just look at all the fudged test results for the SA80....

Which ones?