What a difference about 2 years makes

[Thomm]

Good post, Hoolaman!

Best regards,

Thomm

[shafty]

I think the biggest problem isn't the game it is the monumental task of wading through all the ****e on this forum and picking out the wheat from the chaff.

Steve, what is your chaff pile like?

[ August 24, 2007, 02:29 AM: Message edited by: shafty ]

[Niessuh]

Dear Battlefront. I guess...what if instead of battle with all this rants and grunts you try to restore the missed functionality WEGO has?

I mean, you have done that in three games before, I think it could be even less time consuming than the endless battles with old grognards you are going to have. You save time, grognards will be absolutely pleased with you forever and RT people continues with their joy. Everybody happy.

[Niessuh]

I mean, I'm not trying to convince you to go back to the CMx1 model. Just asking something that has a WEGO model as good as CMx1 has. Because right now, it is clear FOR EVERYBODY (in my opinion) that CMX2 WEGO is worse than CMx1.

And please, don't answer this trying to convince me to change to the RT model. If you want that I change my gameplay mode and you are sure that this is the way to go, you shouldn't have made WEGO in CMx2 (in my opinion). Because bad WEGO is worse than nothing...in my humble opinion.

[Pinetree]

Originally posted by Hoolaman:

* 30 second turns. It is still arbitrary, but considering the modern setting and the slightly less versatile WEGO system 60 is to long.

That 30 second turn idea is a really good one and with the way wego is implemented with the real-time engine it shouldn't be too hard to implement.Maybe give us options to make a turn 30 ,45, 60 seconds?

[Xraider]

For all of its faults (or not) Battlefront has produced some of the best wargames out there (IMHO CMSF included). I don't get why there are so many people who continually rant on about CMSF. If you don't like the direction BFC has taken, why not go in another? If you spent as much time complaing as say working on new maps/mods for CMx1, there might be a few more years in the engine left, which is what your really after isn't it? Maybe you could get together and call your site Battlefarce.com? Just kidding, but for thsoe who want to stay with CM1, good luck to you.

[Niessuh]

Originally posted by Xraider:

For all of its faults (or not) Battlefront has produced some of the best wargames out there (IMHO CMSF included). I don't get why there are so many people who continually rant on about CMSF. If you don't like the direction BFC has taken, why not go in another?

Because Battlefront has produced some of the best wargames out there

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by Niessuh:

Dear Battlefront. I guess...what if instead of battle with all this rants and grunts you try to restore the missed functionality WEGO has?

What missed WEGO functionality are you talking about?

[Lindan]

[total posting confusion]

[Niessuh]

Originally posted by Melnibone:

What missed WEGO functionality are you talking about?

It has been said in other threads, don't want to start another discussion on the same topic, but say in short: CMx2 is designed to be played for RT, with WEGO as an additional feature build over RT, just a minute-pausable RT

-I should watch and wait until the entire turn ends

-Terrain shows damage done at the start. You know who's going to die from the begining

-Ammo levels during repeat belong to the last moment

-Can't fast forward

-Can't babysit units while turn lasts. And this is mandatory now.

-Couldn't put my unit right where I want at the order phase (like hull down/follow vehicle)

-Delay time receiving orders depending on unit experience.

-Can't modify waypoints.

-Stacked orders don't work properly + want to hide at the end of the move

-Go to the striker/take ammo/return to combat is problematic.

-Load/unload units too.

Say even shortly: you suffer an awesome lack of control over everything compared to the previous games. And no, this is not the "good" lack of control coming from the chaos of war. And no, this is not because we are just control freaks which wants to control everything. It's the lack of control that just produce frustration.

Yeah, I know some of this problems will be fixed soon, is what I hope. but I'm afraid some of them that chronically afects WEGO play will never be...

BTW, sorry for my poor english level

PS: "in my opinion" precedes all said phrases

[Lindan]

Originally posted by Lindan:

So when will 1.03 be ready? Time to crash the forum again

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by Niessuh:

-I should watch and wait until the entire turn ends

-Terrain shows damage done at the start. You know who's going to die from the begining

-Ammo levels during repeat belong to the last moment

-Can't fast forward

-Can't babysit units while turn lasts. And this is mandatory now.

-Couldn't put my unit right where I want at the order phase (like hull down/follow vehicle)

-Delay time receiving orders depending on unit experience.

-Can't modify waypoints.

-Stacked orders don't work properly + want to hide at the end of the move

-Go to the striker/take ammo/return to combat is problematic.

-Load/unload units too.

Much of that list is not anything to do with WEGO functionality. I'm not disputing your issues but they are not all WEGO issues.

[TheVulture]

Agree with Melnibone. The only one that is specifically an issue designed into the new WeGo system is the first one (and also the 4th one, which is the same thing...). The rest are bugs, tacAI issues and UI issues, which can all be resolved (in theory).

[thewood]

They are not specific to WEGO, but are a greater factor in WEGO. In WEGO, you can't intervene or work around issues like you can in RT. These bugs make WEGO VERY difficult to play.

eg...I have an issue that between 1.01 and 1.02, Strytkers will very reluctantly fire their machine guns. In RT, no biggie, you just iintervene. In WEGO, you now wait 60 seconds to intervene. Add up all the issues like this in WEGO and it is incredibly frustrating. In other threads, the work around is just play in RT. Thats where the comments about this being built more for RT than WEGO come from.

[JonS]

Originally posted by dalem:

... in CMx1 I can do my beginning moves (which may just be clicking "GO!") and head to the kitchen or whatever. When it "BOOP!"s, I can click FF a few times and watch for smoke, or guys hitting the deck, or listen for firing, etc. If I see/hear nothing, another "GO!" and repeat, etc.

Right, and you can do exactly the same thing in CMSF, the difference being that when you head off to the kitchen the first run-through plays instead of the blue-bar growing.

No functional difference.

[thewood]

So I wanna know...In CM1 it sometimes took longer than a minute for the blue bar and AI to calculate and move. What happens now if it takes longer than a minute? (This only happened in huge scenarios.

It would seems like it would be a bigger problem with having to calc the graphics at the same time.

Edit: In the early days of release, someone actually brought it up, but no one from BFC ever answered, or at least I missed it.

[ August 24, 2007, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: thewood ]

[SlowMotion]

That's one thing I've thought about also. Can the game always (no matter what kind of PC you have) calculate moves in real time so that results are the same? If you have a very slow PC, does the game use different ways to calculate that are faster but maybe don't give as good results - such as when trying to find a path that provides good cover.

[C'Rogers]

Could you please explain to me how this is, in any practical sense, different to having to sit through a whole [insert elapsed time here] watching the blue bar grow in CMx1?

Well maybe it is because I didn't get into CM until later then everyone else (and thus had a better computer) or maybe because I rarely played huge battles, but the bar was often very very quick. I could easily get the "movement" phase of a battle out of the way in a couple minutes just fast forwarding through turns.

It isn't a huge issue but it was enough to knock me from a WEGO to a RT player for the game. Especially given the scope of the battles (2 hours) with a lot of early deadtime. As dalem posted about going to the kitchen I will often do that in RT (issue orders, walk away, come back in awhile to check on things).

[thewood]

You obviously never played the Volga scenario...

[Battlefront.com]

Slow Motion,

That's one thing I've thought about also. Can the game always (no matter what kind of PC you have) calculate moves in real time so that results are the same? If you have a very slow PC, does the game use different ways to calculate that are faster but maybe don't give as good results - such as when trying to find a path that provides good cover.

You get hammered on framerate because CMx2 favors the game calcuations over animating stuff. Charles also coded CMx2 on a much slower system than most people are playing to make dang'd sure the slower end of the spectrum could still run the game adequately.

This answers Thewood's question as well, I think.

Steve

[whaco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yet another "my opinion means more than anybody else's" thread? What a surprise

A reminder that I've said, since the beginning of Battlefront's existance, that it is impossible for us to please all people all the time so we don't even try.

We still know what we are doing and just because some people are bent out of shape that there are no hexes doesn't mean they are right. Oh wait... sorry, that was a different group of people that said we didn't know what we were doing. So easy to get people who think they know best confused

Steve

Steve, you keep trying to defend your game. Why? The game is everything I thought it would be with no expections as to what it should be. This is of course an unbias opinion.

#1 I have never played your CMx1 games because to me I was not into 3 man lego block men representing 10 man squads. #2 I never caught onto turn based games. I guess that makes me not a true wargammer. Oh-well. Having said that I respect very much what you have previously done with the old series of CM and decided to give wego a try in the new CMx2 engine. Wow. I still enjoy RT better but it is nice to have that option. I actually enjoy wego with CMSF. I guess to summerize things up, I find the game very playable even with the minor bugs and have virtually no idea what the constant rants are about b/c I had no previous expections.

[ August 25, 2007, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: whaco ]

[Battlefront.com]

Whaco,

Steve, you keep trying to defend your game. Why?

Because some people confuse their personal opinion with fact AND think that repetition of an opinion makes it even more factual

The reason you don't understand the rants is because (for the most part) you don't have experience with the earlier CM games. In other words, you "don't get CMx1" and "do get CMx2". That sits fine with me. Welcome!

Steve

[sandy]

Sorry Steve - it is NOT "My Personal Opinion", it is many, many people's opinion. Please read, and take note of, other posts supporting my views.

Sure whaco is happy - but he was't a CM1 fan in the first place (he says so in his post)

Sure Kip is happy {well, he's polite and says he happy; I'm not polite and speak the unspeakable truth}(also Kip is a modern armour/AT technology grog, as well as a WW2 grog), but Kip declines to actually play CMSF with me in it's current state.

But those of us who loved CM1 AND who bought the game wishing to play it at purchase time and not sometime in the future when it's fixed, are very disappointed and not happy.

The reason I keep posting about fixing unit selection and QBs is that you keep ignoring my posts, or simply saying that "my opinion doesn't matter more than anybody else's".

I'm not asking you to "defend your game" - I'm asking you to fix QBs and unit selection. Please.

[NCOIC]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We still know what we are doing and just because some people are bent out of shape that there are no hexes doesn't mean they are right. Oh wait... sorry, that was a different group of people that said we didn't know what we were doing. So easy to get people who think they know best confused

Steve

This will bite ya in the ass, too bad we dont have a time-machine so all of us people who "think their opinions matter more than others" can be proven right.

[Sardaukar]

I have had many BFC products, starting from Over the Reich. I am big fan of CMBO/BB/AK (even though rarely play first after CMAK).

Had just a try with CMSF and can agree with sandy.

Game looks like lot of lessons learned with interface has been thrown away. Why fix something that was not broken ?

To me, after CM1-series, CMSF is big disappointment...real let-down compared to unpatched CMBO-release. Game is realy alienating to lot of people that formed existing CM1-customer base. Fine, if BFC thinks they can fill that with RT-players. But since interface is designed so unintuitively, RT play suffers too.

After spending some time staring in amusement to Stryker trying to figure out which side of lamp post it should circle to present it's rear to enemy...me not amused. Pathfinding has not been this bad even when CM1-series was it's worst...and this is second patch.

And I find it really strange how BFC-officials deride people that have, IMHO, good reasons to complain. That is not they way to keep your customers.