What a difference about 2 years makes

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

I find the notion that WEGO is somehow for serious wargamers only laughable

I think that tired argument is just being used as a crutch by the crusty middle aged men who would like to keep CM from progressing beyond anything they cannot understand or are not willing to understand

It is the same tired argument that we laugh at now who ask why CMBO did not feature true turns and did not offer hexs

Or the argument that the computer will never replace good old board games

The arguments are rubbish and it is what keeps wargaming buried in the dark ages and continues to make it a niche genre

The biggest enemy of wargames is not 16 year old kids, or huge budget games or even market indifference.

The biggest enemy of wargames is their fans.

The fans who revolt against any sort of change and keep the genre firmly planted in the dark ages.

The genre is not going to grow until developers stop pandering to that very limited fan group.

In 5-6 years we will look back at this and have yet another laugh when realtime is the norm and 2-3 more CM games have been released.

But the arguments and these 'fans' still grate on my nerves.

16 year old kids who love real time games are not the enemy.

There money is just as good as yours.

And the more of them that play 'your' games, the better those games will be.

Imagine if BFC had the budget to hire 3 more Charles or a bigger art or more 3-D modelers

Or give Steve an army of pretty 19 year old interns

So revolting against change and doing your best to drive off new customers is just shooting yourself and your hobby in the foot.

The gap between mainstream games and wargames is just going to grow ever larger.

And that is my two euros

This - was a good post.

[monkeezgob]

Click-fest is the way forward! Huzzah! The problem is that at the moment the tac AI is so damn poor you spend an inordinate amount of time baby sitting and micromanaging in RT and that it has a seriously detrimental effect on any strategy you might have planned.

Sandy, like you, I much prefer WEGO, but not in its current, sorry and broken state. At the moment its an ok computer game, but a poor wargame.

[ August 23, 2007, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: monkeezgob ]

[C'Rogers]

Rudel I think you overstate the case. While it is silly to say that WEGO is for serious wargamers only (and I think it is overstated how many people say that), it is also silly to say that it is the sole future. Board games are unlikely to disappear as they offer something unique (the presence of other people as well as unique methods of play). Sure they will shrink do to competition, as turn based may do to real time, but certainly not disappear as there will always be a segment of the population that is looking for that.

[[hirr]Leto]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

I find the notion that WEGO is somehow for serious wargamers only laughable

I think that tired argument is just being used as a crutch by the crusty middle aged men who would like to keep CM from progressing beyond anything they cannot understand or are not willing to understand

It is the same tired argument that we laugh at now who ask why CMBO did not feature true turns and did not offer hexs

Or the argument that the computer will never replace good old board games

The arguments are rubbish and it is what keeps wargaming buried in the dark ages and continues to make it a niche genre

The biggest enemy of wargames is not 16 year old kids, or huge budget games or even market indifference.

The biggest enemy of wargames is their fans.

The fans who revolt against any sort of change and keep the genre firmly planted in the dark ages.

The genre is not going to grow until developers stop pandering to that very limited fan group.

In 5-6 years we will look back at this and have yet another laugh when realtime is the norm and 2-3 more CM games have been released.

But the arguments and these 'fans' still grate on my nerves.

16 year old kids who love real time games are not the enemy.

Their money is just as good as yours.

And the more of them that play (and more importantly pay for) 'your' games, the better those games will be.

Imagine if BFC had the budget to hire 3 more Charles or a bigger art team or more 3-D modelers

Or give Steve an army of pretty 19 year old interns

So revolting against change and doing your best to drive off new customers is just shooting yourself and your hobby in the foot.

The gap between mainstream games and wargames is just going to grow ever larger.

And that is my two euros

Actually, this is also a highly opinionated piece of fluff IMHO and a bad post.

All things being equal, the main objection that people have with CMSF is that it is broken.

The potential is there though... looking forward to BFC getting it done right.

Cheers!

Leto

[dalem]

Originally posted by cassh:

Dale - The Atomic V for Victory and World at War were corkers - just wished that something like their UI and game play had been applied to a computerised version of GDW/GDR's Europa series - i'd never have left the house again!

I still run a DOS box just for playing them.

Did Matrix ever do anything with that "BattleLines" or whatever that was supposed to do the same thing?

-dale

[dalem]

Originally posted by rudel.dietrich:

So revolting against change and doing your best to drive off new customers is just shooting yourself and your hobby in the foot.

But pushing for unnecessary (opinion only!) change and doing your best to drive off old customers is okay?

-dale

[Lurker765]

For me the only big difference between real time with pauses and WEGO is the replay. If you can pause then I don't really see any other difference except that real time lets you pause whenever you want. I miss being able to see what happened on the other side of the map when something blows up. Was it a mine? An RPG? Who knows? Not me. I just have a dead unit and my little pixeltruppens refuse to talk.

My main complaint is that real time without pauses (TCP/IP since elite mode is getting fixed) limits the scale of the game since you cannot control a battalion of soldiers. I know the game is supposed to be a company scale, but CMx1 could handle a small fight or a battalion one. I like that freedom, and even a company sized fight gets unwieldy unless you can pause.

I have nothing against RT players even though I prefer WEGO. I think this rift clouds the real problems of the fun destroying bugs. Many people must feel that the effort spent on making the game RT took away from other features they wanted. Speaking as a software engineer I don't think that is particularly true since I don't see the two as being all that different in execution.

[rudel.dietrich]

Nah RT is not the only way forward

But there is not alot that can be done with Wego since CM1 sort of perfected it

And you have been given both options

RT opens the door for many new customers and allows BF the possibility to be unshackled by some of the problems of WEGO

I am in no way saying the game is perfect

It has a host of minor problems and some very significant problems

But there is a element that violently rejecting the new game just on the basis that it is different

And I really no not get the clickfest argument either.

Calling the game a click fest makes you exactly the sort of person I was talking about.

Maybe I am just young and have better reflexes than most

But a vast portion of the time it is pretty easy for me to keep up with what is going on

For a batallion sized game I really only need to pause and issue orders a handful of times

So if you do not like real time I am not saying you are wrong

You still have WEGO to fall back on

What I am saying is that RT somehow destroyed the game is about a far fetched myth as I can imagine

And some of that element is also doing their damndest to try and belittle any new customers that RT would attract

I for one will not stand for such a thing.

The industry and the genre needs their dollars and we should be more welcoming to such a group.

[JonS]

You know, Rudel, you are behaving exactly the way you are complaining about others doing.

[Lurker765]

Your playing style must be a lot different than mine if you only need to pause a handful of times in a battalion sized game. In my opinion that scale is impossible in real time without pauses unless you are just lassoing troops and throwing them in a direction and relying on the TacAI (which is pretty bad in this iteration of the game IMHO).

[Battlefront.com]

bahger,

The game is broken and cannot live up to its stated conceptual goals.

Ye have little faith The game has been out exactly one month and you haven't seen v1.03, which fixes pretty much all the basic problems people have been having with things like LOS, path finding, PBEM, etc. I don't expect that you're going to like the game any more for it, but I don't see that the nails are in the coffin.

People complain about the implementation of WEGO and QBs not because they are different from what they might be used to but because they are not nearly as much fun or as well executed. WEGO in CMSF is a kludge.

This is my point... you keep forgetting to include "in my opinion". You state these things as if EVERYBODY agrees with you. They do not. That doesn't invalidate your opinion any more than it validates someone else's.

I am hoping the game will become playable with another two or three patches and I know the devs are working hard and that their hearts are in the right place. My biggest fear is this: If they were as totally convinced, as they appeared to be on the eve of release, that their product was basically sound and if they continue to believe that consumer complaints are mainly the result of misplaced expectations rather than legitimate responses to the broken condition of the game, then CMSF will never really be fixed because nobody at BFC is prepared to admit that it's broke.

Again, the arrogance of presuming that your opinion is the only one that matters. There are aspects of CM:SF that need to be improved, for sure, but we're prepared to do that. The issue is we may not agree on what needs to be improved. Again, it's a matter of opinion and you need to keep that in mind.

JonS,

I genuinely do not understand why so many people are saying this.

I don't either. Which is why I have to take such opinions with a pinch of salt. There is something more to it than that, yet when I try to point this out I'm accused of burying my head in the sand. The reason? People have formed an opinion and they do not want it challenged. It's like our old, favorite saying... "fix it or do somefink".

leto,

All things being equal, the main objection that people have with CMSF is that it is broken.

The potential is there though... looking forward to BFC getting it done right.

The problem is, as I have said, that there is no one opinion about what is "broken". Version 1.03 will go a long way to addressing the technical problems. But when people say that "WeGo is a kludge"... I don't even know what to do with that. It's almost identical to the way it was in CMx1, so if it is totally broken in CM:SF then it must have been only slightly less of a disaster in CMx1.

Dalem,

But pushing for unnecessary (opinion only!) change and doing your best to drive off old customers is okay?

What is unnecessary to you was life or death for us. We could have produced a near clone of CMx1 and had it released a year ago. We'd also likely go out of business soon. I don't really care if you believe that or not since it's not relevant, no more than what my opinion counts for in terms of how you earn your living. I could have an opinion about this, but I don't know what you do

Lurker765,

I have nothing against RT players even though I prefer WEGO. I think this rift clouds the real problems of the fun destroying bugs. Many people must feel that the effort spent on making the game RT took away from other features they wanted. Speaking as a software engineer I don't think that is particularly true since I don't see the two as being all that different in execution.

Totally agree. I will also say that I've not seen ONE person who is in favor of RT complain that WeGo is somehow interfering with their enjoyment of the game or was responsible for various features they would like to see being left out.

Rudel,

Nah RT is not the only way forward

But there is not alot that can be done with Wego since CM1 sort of perfected it

Well put. I've said this before, more than once, as well. When we looked at CMBB we saw the end of the road for the engine. Sure, we could have redone it and added a few things here and there, but it basically would be no different than what we had already done. "Great!!" say some people. "Not great" from our perspective because the number of people interested in buying that slightly warmed over redo would not be enough to keep us in business.

Steve

[Bahger]

The problem is, as I have said, that there is no one opinion about what is "broken".

Hmm, Steve, if you were to solicit a list of what is considered broken from every member of this board with cause for complaint, you'd get much more of a consensus than you think...

I'm looking forward to 1.03. If it plays, I'll be the first to do a big mea culpa right here. But it will have to have fixed more than "technical" issues.

BTW, I really like the materials I received in my special edition package which arrived today.

[RedMike]

I disagree with original poster. I like RT, which I consider more realistic than wego, and I don't care at all about QBs. I play wargames to simulate history and therefore play scenarios.So please don't impose your judgement of the games features on me. CMSF is very enjoyable right now and will no doubt get better in the due course of time.

[sross]

The WEGO system is a kludge because you have to sit through the whole minute and can't fast forward like the old one. That just kills it when things are slow. Granted this is only my opinion why it would be a "kludge", or whatever that is. I find that I play RT just because of that, but I'm constantly pausing because I have to monitor multiple plt's and their orders/actions. So I'm not really doing the RT how it is "supposed" to be, because any self respecting grog has to micromanage all his units.

Then, like previously stated, a Stryker gets whacked that isn't in my current view and I have no idea what happened. The other 40 guys in the plt don't tell you and I'm sure there is a notable difference between an RPG, mine, airstrike, arty, ATGM or T72, but I am at a loss. Granted I understand FOW and all, but that isn't all that "realistic" either. Maybe RT with a 3 minute recording loop with ability to review would solve the issue sufficiently.

As for the realism debate of RT vs WEGO, with a lack of a very detailed orders system there is no possibility of commanding anything larger than a plt, and some would argue a squad, in RT without constantly pausing. Most 20th and 21st century command systems go down to the corporals running the fire teams. With all levels of command acting independently towards the common goal or mission. The flexibility and independent thinking at all levels of command is necessary for the fluid battlefields that the little pixeltruppen storm across today. That would be impossible for BF to code, so we have to step in and give commands as fire team leaders, squad leaders, plt leaders, company commanders and etc. It just can't be done in RT without pausing to "realisticly" reflect all the decisions that are made at every level to shape the battlefield. So, we are right back to the stopping the game every minute to reissue orders to cope with the changing situations and inputting the actions and reactions of every unit to the dynamics of the battlefield.

RT is fine, and with the WEGO system the way it is, RT is how I play the game. It works ok. The old system, as posted earlier, seemed to be pretty much perfected and would be great to have again. RT is really the only way to play the game right now. Hopefully that will change with the promises of 1.03. Right now it is, well, infuriating to have to watch the TACAI run your troops for an entire minute without being able to intervene in some way.

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bahger:

WEGO in CMSF is a kludge.

I genuinely do not understand why so many people are saying this.

WEGO TCP/IP is gone (for the moment?). Ok, I get that, although _personally_ that has zero impact _for_me_.

WEGO PBEM is better in terms of fewer emails/turn, but is otherwise the same. Well, apart from the blue bar. But how is this a kludge? :confused: </font>

[JonS]

Originally posted by sross:

The WEGO system is a kludge because you have to sit through the whole minute and can't fast forward like the old one. That just kills it when things are slow. Granted this is only my opinion why it would be a "kludge", or whatever that is.

Could you please explain to me how this is, in any practical sense, different to having to sit through a whole [insert elapsed time here] watching the blue bar grow in CMx1?

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by sross:

The WEGO system is a kludge because you have to sit through the whole minute and can't fast forward like the old one.

The blue bar could easily take more than a minute in CMX1 - when you could do nothing except watch a blue bar. But that was not a kludge - it was perfection.

Once the action starts in CMSF surely you save time? No waiting for a blue bar - you watch a turn of action - which you would need to watch anyway - and can them move directly to the next turn. IMHO the early turns of inaction - and having to wait a minute to progress - are outweighed by the improvement once the action starts - which in most battles should be the majority of the game.

[ August 23, 2007, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Melnibone ]

[sross]

Once the action starts it isn't so bad. I suppose if you are more Patton than Monty there is less to sit through as well. I'm sure once the TACAI is fixed it will come into it's own, until then RT (with lots of pausing) will probably be the way to play.

[JonS]

Will you answer the question?

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Dalem,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But pushing for unnecessary (opinion only!) change and doing your best to drive off old customers is okay?

What is unnecessary to you was life or death for us. We could have produced a near clone of CMx1 and had it released a year ago. We'd also likely go out of business soon. I don't really care if you believe that or not since it's not relevant, no more than what my opinion counts for in terms of how you earn your living. I could have an opinion about this, but I don't know what you do

</font>

[dalem]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sross:

The WEGO system is a kludge because you have to sit through the whole minute and can't fast forward like the old one. That just kills it when things are slow. Granted this is only my opinion why it would be a "kludge", or whatever that is.

Could you please explain to me how this is, in any practical sense, different to having to sit through a whole [insert elapsed time here] watching the blue bar grow in CMx1? </font>

[Redwolf]

On the blue bar:

Obviously for CM:SF it couldn't take more than one minute to do the blue bar, otherwise it wouldn't get it's work done in real time or during the first WEGO play.

Obviously, the game gets the work done during the one minute turn even on a slow computer. So the net amount of CPU cycles spent is at most 1 minute minus what the graphics cost. On a slow computer.

It is therefore safe to say that people who have a computer twice as fast as the average computer would at most have 30 seconds blue bar. And probably much less. Also don't forget that using fast forward in the VCR controls would skip actual CPU work that is rendering related.

[Thomm]

Originally posted by dalem:

I don't know that it's necessarily better for anyone who doesn't play like me, but I do know that for the small QBs I tend to play against the AI, the first 5 turns or so go by pretty quick. So it is different.

Well, in real-time, the time that you perceive as being boring and which you want to skip by fast-forwarding is used to issue orders to the troops.

I played the last campaign mission yesterday, and this TWO HOUR game time beast took me about 2.5 hours of wallclock time to complete!!!

If it was WeGo, I would not even have bothered to start it up, because I would have known that it would take me, like, 6 hours to complete!

Furthermore, I state that scenarios that are difficult to play in real-time are also tedious in WeGo, because those mostly involve a lot of troops, and, even worse, several different, unconnected action hotspots.

Again, Street Sweepers comes to my mind, where the corner objective was not connected to the mosque objective IMHO. Nevertheless, I was surprised how (relatively) easy this scenario was to handle in RT and how well the game ran even with this vast number of units!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Melnibone]

Originally posted by Redwolf:

It is therefore safe to say that people who have a computer twice as fast as the average computer would at most have 30 seconds blue bar.

Are you saying you would prefer this to how it is currently implemented?

[hoolaman]

Originally posted by JonS:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sross:

The WEGO system is a kludge because you have to sit through the whole minute and can't fast forward like the old one. That just kills it when things are slow. Granted this is only my opinion why it would be a "kludge", or whatever that is.

Could you please explain to me how this is, in any practical sense, different to having to sit through a whole [insert elapsed time here] watching the blue bar grow in CMx1? </font>