Shockforce, the RTS.

[Swift]

I think I could get used to RT mode if there was a slight modification to it: A replay function.

That way I could give orders, unpause, let it play for a while and then pause with the knowledge that I could replay anything that I have missed.

[thelmia]

Yeah, I'd like replay a lot. One of the coolest things about CM was being able to go back and see what happened. You could actually watch the whole battle without having to be everywhere at once. I find myself looking at a burning tank and wondering how that happened.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Exel,

As others have said, slow and steady wins battles, it doesn't lose them. WeGo folks will have more problems with this concept than others because in WeGo if you aren't futzing with every unit every 60 seconds, you aren't playing the game Different play style.

I've had my share of RTS games as well. In fact, most strategy games I play are real-time. And I *still* have problems adapting to the CMSF RT mode - not because the game would be too fast paced or too complicated for real-time, no, but only because of the UI. It's non-standard, and it's too slow for time-critical real-time playing.

Going slow with your tactics is good, and it will win battles. But operating the UI slow will kill you. It doesn't help to know you lost because you weren't fast enough to give the one time-critical order because of the UI, when the other guy worked his UI faster than you. There just is no excuse for a clumsy or slow UI, so please at least don't say it's there to "make it realistic" - that's just BS. At least have the courtesy of admitting that that was the best you could come up with, not "we made it slow on purpose". Because like I said before, a slow UI will mean the battles are resolved by who manages the UI the fastest, not by who is the best tactician. I don't believe that's what you want of CMSF, either.

Also, there is a reason why you want to keep those 5 moves sometimes instead of circle and click. CM's terrain is very detailed. Wild clicks like that, at least in built up terrain, are just invites to disaster.

Who's talking about "wild clicks"? Yes, you want to take the time to place those move orders correctly. What you DON'T want to do is waste that precious time selecting the move order.

Also, waypoints allow your soldiers to regroup. If you use one move for a long distance your guys will get spread out far more than you want them too.

I'm not arguing against waypoints. Waypoints are essential. But is there a reason why setting waypoints couldn't be fast to assign too? Shift-left click is the RTS standard, and for a good reason.

Disclaimer: I am not complaining about RealTime. I can handle RealTime. I just want a better UI to go with it, one designed for the needs of RealTime instead of a turn-based game. I want to help to make it better.

[ July 30, 2007, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Exel ]

[Exel]

Originally posted by Percopius:

Exel, you keep sayingh 8 clicks. Its one. You hit 'B' (move, quick), and click once.

Select unit, select command tab, select 'Move', click on destination, right-click to cancel further waypoints. That's 5 clicks. Assuming you didn't have some other order selected before, which would make it 6. Now if you want to change unit facing as well, you have to click again to select the command tab, then select 'Face', then click on direction. That's 3 more clicks, making for a total of 8 (or 9) clicks. Standard RTS controls would do all of this with two (2) clicks; select unit, click on destination, drag for the direction of facing, release.

True, there's a hotkey for movement. So maybe not the best example. But there are a lot of commands that don't have a dedicated hotkey. So the example remains valid for most of the commands in game.

You can argue if it's adequate or not (I say it isn't) but you can't argue it's as fast as the industry standard RTS controls that almost every single real-time game these days uses.

[athkatla]

But is there a reason why setting waypoints couldn't be fast to assign too? Shift-left click is the RTS standard, and for a good reason.

[/QB]

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Are you saying it is too slow to assign waypoints? If so, that's BS as all you have to do is left click on the ground where you want the waypoint, and carry on left clicking for further waypoints. Couldn't be faster! :confused:

[Exel]

Originally posted by athkatla:

Are you saying it is too slow to assign waypoints? If so, that's BS as all you have to do is left click on the ground where you want the waypoint, and carry on left clicking for further waypoints. Couldn't be faster! :confused:

Yes, because you need up to three clicks just to start placing any waypoints, instead of just hitting Shift and start clicking the waypoints in.

Setting waypoints is perhaps the smallest of the UI problems, since that is actually quite (relatively) fast. Plenty of the other commands are not. Then there's the lack of waypoint editing and proper command queues, but those are different topics.

[Exel]

So Steve, do you need help in designing a new control interface for the game?

[Niskalaukaus]

The Ui is great, just needs some time getting used to. Discuss.

[Panzer76]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Anyhoo... we're not deaf to the calls for some improvements. So expect improvements. But I'll never accept the argument that it is as broken as some say it is. If it were I wouldn't be able to kick so much butt when playing RT

Steve

I kick ass playing RT also, in fact, I prefer RT in single player. However, that has nothing to do with how good or bad the UI is. I dont see your point here at all.

I can pretty much win any scen (as defender) by doing *nothing* also.. what does that tell me?

Anyways, its good to hear that improvements will hopefully be here in the near future.

[ July 31, 2007, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Panzer76 ]

[Blackmuzzle]

Indeed, I love the RT mode. And I share the sentiment that the UI is suboptimal.

Take a look at SupremeCommander - not only can you stack any order you like (and have that displayed in an intuitive fashion), you can also see the ETA of a unit on a particular waypoint, allowing you to plan ahead and to make the movements of different groups of units converge on a specific point at a specific time.

A feature like that would be of immeasurable value here in CMSF. A countdown timer hovering over the last waypoint, that would go a long way in finally being able to orchestrate troop movement.

Of course, this would only work if the units were to actually walk along the waypoints, instead of veering off elsewhere

[MikeyD]

"I need simple and quick ways of ordering arty strikes"

This one made me laugh out loud!

Airstrikes and artillery strikes are the smoothest, simplest, and most intuitive part of the whole game! in a few moments you can have a single FO conduct an area mortar attack, two linear 155mm artillery strikes and call in a massive F15 airstrike! Literally as simple a click & drag. And you need it simpler?

Don't blame the game mechanics if you're not proficient at the controls after all of 3 days play!

[Guest]

Agreed, the arty / airstrike mechanics are about as slick as any I've ever seen. Very awesome.

However, the vast number of clicks needed to provide new orders to a unit IS a serious pain when combined with the clumsy camera (at least, it's clumsy when you need it for close work like finding the right door in a building or directing infantry in MOUT).

Hotkeys are awesome, but I've got my hands too full with the mouse and WASD/arrow keys during combat to deal with them. Perhaps I'm just a poor player. I do tend to micro-manage my troops.

Phil

[Exel]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

Don't blame the game mechanics if you're not proficient at the controls after all of 3 days play!

Seriously, re-read that statement and think again. If you still don't spot the flaw in there, read again. 3 days of playing to get the hang of some RTS controls? More? We aren't talking about the learning curve of a flight simulator here. RTS games also weren't invented yesterday. If you don't get proficient with the controls of an RTS in 3 hours there's something seriously wrong with the game mechanics.

That said, the issue is not about learning the controls. You can memorize the controls by heart and it still isn't as fast as your standard set of RTS controls, or the controls of CMx1 for that matter. It's about efficiency, pure and simple.

In a turn-based strategy you have all the time in the world to work your way around giving the commands, so even a slower UI will do. In a real-time game being slow in giving commands loses you the game. If the controls are slow to use, the deciding factor for winning matches becomes the players' ability in handling those controls - not the tactics. And I for one want CMSF to be a game about tactics, not a game of the most clicks in a minute.

With a poor UI you also dumb down the game. With slow controls you simply don't have time to execute intricate tactical maneuvers. All the strategic depth in the world wont help if you don't have time to exploit it. But I'm sure this has registered with BFC already - the only question is what action will they take to fix it. I'm willing to help make it better, if that's what's required.

[birdstrike]

I don't know. The UI could use a bit of streamlining, I guess. Like moving the Bail Out button to another spot in the interface, because I tend to issue my Hunt commands too often from the Special Commands tab.

But as for efficiency, of controls in RT; I usually lose more time thinking about my next step than by needing the 2 or 3 clicks more than in an RTS to issue orders.

And to be fair, your common RTS game doesn't give the player the possibility to choose between half a dozen movement commands, attack orders and the like. That's why "click on unit then click on area or target" works for them.

Anything outside of such a generic "Move" or "Attack" command in RTS games uses hotkeys similar to CMSF: select unit, hit a special key or click interface button, then click on target or whatever. And since these special commands can be different for each unit, people should have the same problems remembering and pressing these RTS UI buttons or hotkeys they claim to have exclusively in CMSF now.

[RedDevil]

Dev's tips for Enjoying CM -SF

Exit the game

Start up CM AK

Enjoy...

[jomni]

The problem here is that the controls are quite good for a WEGO system but bad for RTS. But the game runs better on RTS becuase the TACAI needs a lot of baby-sitting.

[Battlefront.com]

Excel,

Select unit, select command tab, select 'Move', click on destination, right-click to cancel further waypoints. That's 5 clicks.

And how many less clicks do you want? I can do the same thing in 3 clicks:

Click on Unit

Hit Command Hotkey

Right-click to deselect unit

That's three clicks. How many less can it be?

RedDevil,

You are starting to cross that line from someone with a point to just being a Troll. EVERYBODY knows you hate it, so why continue to post here? You're certainly not doing anything constructive with your posts.

Steve

[Exel]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Excel,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Select unit, select command tab, select 'Move', click on destination, right-click to cancel further waypoints. That's 5 clicks.

And how many less clicks do you want? I can do the same thing in 3 clicks:

Click on Unit

Hit Command Hotkey

Right-click to deselect unit

That's three clicks. How many less can it be?</font>

[Battlefront.com]

Sure, there is a hotkey for every Command. That's the whole point of the system

Look at the Command buttons. 9 button positions, yes? Well, there are 9 hotkeys assigned for those relative positions. Whichever Command Group is visible, those 9 buttons control. On my keyboard, for example, the middle button of the middle row is "S". This controlls "HUNT" in Movement, "FACE" in Combat, "BAILOUT" in Special, and nothing in Admin.

So again, I can do what you suggested in 3 clicks and 1 keystroke. If I want to put down Move, Fast, Move my clicks remain at 3 and my keystrokes increase by 2 for a total of 3. It can't be much more efficeint than that.

The advantage of the system we have is that you can have one hand dedicated to Commands and the other one dedicated to navigating in the 3D environment. You never have to move the hand controlling Commands since the Command keys are always in the same space within easy reach (like the NumPad).

If a player doesn't like using two hands, well... then the UI becomes less efficient. We can't help that, because anything less than two handed control is less efficient by definition.

Steve

[dalem]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

If a player doesn't like using two hands, well... then the UI becomes less efficient. We can't help that, because anything less than two handed control is less efficient by definition.

Steve

Really? In what context?

-dale

[ChrisND]

LOL...

[jomni]

Can we use the F keys to switch between the different command groups? Easier than aiming the mouse on the little buttons. (Haven't read the manual yet).

[Thomm]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

... people should have the same problems remembering and pressing these RTS UI buttons or hotkeys they claim to have exclusively in CMSF now.

Well, in fact I always disliked this kind of linear/array arrangement hotkey systems, starting from Close Combat, where it was ZXCVBNM, if I remember correctly. Since I am not a piano player, I have trouble playing the keyboard 'blind' especially if I have to make a connection between 'N' and 'Defend', e.g.

If anybody cared about my opinion, I would tell them to leave the 'register card' in (of course), but leave it to mouse control, primarily for more exotic commands. For the commonly used commands, like fast or target, use the well-known hotkeys. Best of two worlds, IMHO.

Having to press, and, particularly, having to remember to press, the 'B' key to fast move is kinda painful every time.

At present (if I do not want to use the mouse) I have to look at the screen, make sure I have the right tab selected, have to memorize what key to press, look at the keyboard, search for the right key, press it. That is work, not fun.

Maybe it becomes second nature, if, however, I take Close Combat as a benchmark (which I played for years) I will most likely never really get used to it!

Best regards,

Thomm

[bartleby]

Originally posted by jomni:

Can we use the F keys to switch between the different command groups? Easier than aiming the mouse on the little buttons. (Haven't read the manual yet).

t and y (and numpad / and *) flip between them

[Battlefront.com]

Dale,

Really? In what context?

The "those who are gifted" kind

Thomm,

If anybody cared about my opinion, I would tell them to leave the 'register card' in (of course), but leave it to mouse control, primarily for more exotic commands. For the commonly used commands, like fast or target, use the well-known hotkeys. Best of two worlds, IMHO.

This was an early concept which we decided was unnecessary. However, it looks like for your play style it would be quite helpful. So let's say it isn't on the top of our priority list, however it is something that we will still consider.

The reason for the rejection is that we have to draw the line someplace and not make 10 different ways to do the same thing. UI work takes coding time and coding time is always at a premium. Plus, the Commands are broken out by Group because they are mutually incompatable with others of the same group, but you can have one issued with a Command from one of the other groups. Admin keys are accepted as those are their own beasts.

Maybe it becomes second nature, if, however, I take Close Combat as a benchmark (which I played for years) I will most likely never really get used to it!

The other thing that will probably happen is you'll find that for the most part you only need to use a few keys regullarly. This will free you up from having to memorize everything. The way the keys are laid out now reduced the need for memorization, though, because you do not have to "hunt and peck", which (as you point out) is very annoying and inefficient.

jomni

Can we use the F keys to switch between the different command groups? Easier than aiming the mouse on the little buttons. (Haven't read the manual yet).

Bartleby has the right answer for now, but with v1.02 this will change. There will be one unique key allowed for each Command Group. I think we can allow the "flip" keys to remain in.

Steve