Shockforce, the RTS.

[jomni]

A unique key to activate each command group would be easier because it does not depend on which command group you are currently in.

[Thomm]

Thank you for your comments!

I am very happy that you at least consider the "mouse-only register cards/hotkeys for most important functions"

"The other thing that will probably happen is you'll find that for the most part you only need to use a few keys regullarly."

This is why I would like to have those tied to self-explanatory hot-keys.

"The way the keys are laid out now reduced the need for memorization, though, because you do not have to "hunt and peck", which (as you point out) is very annoying and inefficient."

I agree, in everyday life one also has to get used to shortcuts like Ctrl-S, Ctrl-X ... The weakness as I see it now is that now the switching between tabs is a "relative" process, that is, one has to keep track of what tab one is on! With the "absolute" system that is considered (one key for each tab) that should vanish.

I still like a mixed hotkey/mouse tab system better!

Best regards,

Thomm

[RedDevil]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Battlefront.com

RedDevil,

You are starting to cross that line from someone with a point to just being a Troll. EVERYBODY knows you hate it, so why continue to post here? You're certainly not doing anything constructive with your posts.

Steve

Refund my money and I will leave. You don't need my money to develop this any further. That's about as constructive as any post here.

[J Ruddy]

I am surprised. I actually liked the Real Time mopde in the demo quite a bit. (This is saying something - I hated C&C (many moons ago) and have a couple of dusty Blitzkrieg games that I've maybe played twice...)

[Andrew H.]

Using the system as Steve explains it does make a certain amount of sense. Although I do miss more hotkeys and even right click menus.

Is there any reason why the hotkey customization function couldn't allow you to use special keys (i.e., ctrl-a or alt-f) in assigning keystrokes? If that were an option, you would be able to assign more memorable hotkeys - probably almost all of the ones you would regularly use - to ctrl-key combinations. I.e. Ctrl-T would be target, Ctrl-F would be fast, Ctrl-Q would be quick, Ctrl-S would be slow, Ctrl-H would be hunt, etc. Absent a programmy reason not to do this, wouldn't this alleviate a certain amount of UI complaints?

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by Andrew H.:

assign more memorable hotkeys

User assignable hot-keys please! I keep hitting F for fast move and U for hunt and it just ain't working for me.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Sure, there is a hotkey for every Command. That's the whole point of the system

Look at the Command buttons. 9 button positions, yes? Well, there are 9 hotkeys assigned for those relative positions. Whichever Command Group is visible, those 9 buttons control. On my keyboard, for example, the middle button of the middle row is "S". This controlls "HUNT" in Movement, "FACE" in Combat, "BAILOUT" in Special, and nothing in Admin.

You don't have a unique hotkey for every command. Which means that to access any given command, I must first select the correct command tab. And I can't even select that directly, I must cycle *shrugs* through them. It increases the number of clicks by up to 3 clicks per order, whereas with a context menu (CMx1 style) you could access any command always with just two clicks. The difference doesn't sound that big for one individual command, but when you start adding up that for every command you give, you get pretty phenomenal differences (Move & Face from 2 clicks to 8 clicks).

And it's not just the number of clicks that makes it slow. Having to watch down to the UI every time to make sure you got the right command tab selected in the first place makes your reactions slower as well.

As I said, I can give you a detailed alternate command interface for you to look at, but I don't want to waste my time if you are dead-set on insisting that the current system is perfect and wont even consider changing it.

[birdstrike]

You have to look for better examples to support your cause. Move and Face each have a their own hotkey (B and N)

[Exel]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

You have to look for better examples to support your cause. Move and Face each have a their own hotkey (B and N)

Yeah and it's still 4 clicks as opposed to 1...

[Londoner]

Originally posted by RedDevil:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Battlefront.com

RedDevil,

You are starting to cross that line from someone with a point to just being a Troll. EVERYBODY knows you hate it, so why continue to post here? You're certainly not doing anything constructive with your posts.

Steve

Refund my money and I will leave. You don't need my money to develop this any further. That's about as constructive as any post here. </font>

[Guest]

Not to get too far off topic, but if you've got a family and bills to pay, $50-60 is a big deal.

What I paid for CMSF accounts for about 10% of my "mad money" for the year, and that money also needs to pay for things like new hard drives, etc. Stuff I actually need. Some of us really are making a bit of a commitment when we buy games. Now, I am happy that I've done so... BFC has always been a stalwart developer in my eyes, and I want to support that.

Still, though, I actually have a job that pays me very well -- I'm a senior software developer in a big city. So saying that he's a "stingy sod" may be assuming way too much.

Back on topic -- it seems like unique hotkeys would be an easy fix for this situation. I *do* use almost every available command on a regular basis. I may not be typical in that respect, but I would like fast access to those commands without tabbing through a window.

BFC's proposed key-per-tab will be helpful in that respect, though, I think.

[J Ruddy]

But then, if they changed the hotkeys the mouse-pads BFC has printed up for the Ultimate Super Super Awesome edition would be out of date!

Not good...

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by Exel:

Yeah and it's still 4 clicks as opposed to 1...

Hm, I don't know. Pushing a button on a keyboard followed by a mouse click on the map compared to a single mouseclick on the map is a loss of what.. not even 1/10 of a second?

I'm not quite up to date to RTS (last one I played was Dawn of War) but AFAIK using an attack move (by pressing A followed by a mouseclick on the destination) instead of the simple rightclick on destination is standard procedure. Never heard of anyone having more problems in a game than others who don't use it.

[Guest]

On the other hand, attack-move is just one special command out of maybe five that you need to remember in DOW / other RTSs. (Big DOW player myself.)

And they all have unique hotkeys.

[RedDevil]

Originally posted by RedDevil:

Refund my money and I will leave. You don't need my money to develop this any further. That's about as constructive as any post here.

[Sardaukar]

Exel has very valid points.

And "official" response is far cry from when company was still BigTimeSoftware..and was developing "Beyond Squad Leader", that later evolved to CM:BO.

Telling customers that they cannot operate interface correctly is bad business. I'm passing this game firstly because of reasons stated by Exel. Secondly, it's not good game like predecessors.

Regards,

Mika

[birdstrike]

Originally posted by Phillip Culliton:

On the other hand, attack-move is just one special command out of maybe five that you need to remember in DOW / other RTSs. (Big DOW player myself.)

And they all have unique hotkeys.

Now as you mention it - don't forget all the commands for research and building - gives you quite a headache if you are used to a different layout. :eek:

That's probably one of the hardest parts of a new game: to get used to the new hotkeys - there should be a standard for RTS games.

For WCIII I'm using a little program to bind all hotkeys to a 4x3 grid on the keyboard (QWER, ASDF, YXCV) so you don't need to grope all over the keyboard looking for a specific hotkey of the unit you're currently using - quite similar to the CMSF layout. Works like a charm, and I couldn't play it any other way now.

[Londoner]

Originally posted by Phillip Culliton:

if you've got a family and bills to pay, $50-60 is a big deal.

What I paid for CMSF accounts for about 10% of my "mad money" for the year, and that money also needs to pay for things like new hard drives, etc. Stuff I actually need. Some of us really are making a bit of a commitment when we buy games. Now, I am happy that I've done so... BFC has always been a stalwart developer in my eyes, and I want to support that.

Still, though, I actually have a job that pays me very well -- I'm a senior software developer in a big city. So saying that he's a "stingy sod" may be assuming way too much.

Phillip, appreciated sir. However paying $45 for a product (flawed or not) that is the fruit of four years hard work, from a talented team of chaps, in a market that is hardly overrun with quality, is not a big ask.

[Guest]

No, it's not too much to ask. I do think that assuming that everyone has money to blow on games (and booze for that matter) is wrong.

As for all of the extra hotkeys on DOW... I dunno. I never used them; the clickables were huge and easy to use, making the hotkeys for me a moot point. I never had a problem finding / clicking the buttons I needed. Tabbed interfaces as in CMSF are a completely different story.

So: while unique hotkeys were made moot by DOW's UI design, I think that the UI concept in CMSF really calls for them.

[Sitting Duck]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike:

...Are you seriously arguing that the user interface slowing down the entry of orders is a good thing?...

For what it's worth, some have argued that the designer of the QWERTY keyboard layout thought it was a good thing to slow down typing - it prevented typists from typing so fast they jammed the keys. Maybe.

Of course, I use the Dvorak keyboard layout, so I'm used to be screwed by keyboard controls. At least CMSF gives me some options to re-map.

I've played the game a bit and I don't think I'll ever be using the real-time option. I miss too much - both during playback and from a strategic and tactical planning perspective. Perhaps my perspective will change as gain more familiarity with the interface.

I like and enjoy the CM game series much like I would a chess game - without a turn timer.