Trench networks, ditches, et al.

[aka_tom_w]

here's a link to the "Master Blaster"

web page

At present, small numbers of XM-26 shotguns have been issued to US troops in Afghanistan. According to sources, the weapons have been well received by those that use them. To make matters better for our Armed Forces, the XM-26 attachment is planned to be compatible with the next American assault rifle - Heckler and Koch's XM-8. Now that is a weapon Ripley would be proud of.

looks like it could have potential

-tom w

[Mord]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

They also have to alter the Action Spot map,

Steve

What is the action map? Did I miss this in another thread?

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

No plans on adding claymores since the US is assumed to be on the offensive in our setting.

Steve

So'k you can save them for CM Vietnam...HINT HINT HINT!

Mord.

[Blofeld]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Cammo nets and sandbags?

Which would make them even easier to spot since, remember, this is a simulated world and not the real deal. If we put a little camo netting over something we might as well have bullseye graphic on it as well

The way to fix this is to have a temporary "skin" of ground terrain stretched over the top of the trench. The enemy player would see the skin until the trenches were spotted, then the skin would be removed and the player would know the trenches are there. But this is not an easy thing to do since there is no support in the code for anything even remotely like it.

Steve </font>

[Battlefront.com]

The suggestion about netting was made specifically thought up to hide the trenches. So I shot that idea down because it actually makes them easier to spot As for sandbags, I don't see a lot of use of them in the ME. The Western forces use them all over the place, but it looks to me that the ME use of them is more limited to bunkers than general use.

Steve

[Blofeld]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As for sandbags, I don't see a lot of use of them in the ME. The Western forces use them all over the place, but it looks to me that the ME use of them is more limited to bunkers than general use.

That's surprising since the ME is the one place where "sand" is easy to find.

A few more questions:

- Will we see sandbags around bunkers?

- What about barbed wire?

- Finally, what are you doing about roadblocks? They are just a black slab in CMx1, but in RL can represent anything from concrete barriers to burned out cars to collapsed buildings, etc.

[cassh]

Steve - I know you mentioned bunkers potentially being able to be placed in buildings - but will there also be the ability to place anti-mobility elements such as wire, anti-personnel mines and even corrugated-iron on stairs in buildings?

[MikeyD]

I recall General Norman Schwartzcopf saying the greatest military advancement he witnessed during Gulf War I was when someone got the idea to invert a traffic cone between two saw horses to use as a funnel for filling sandbags! I guess only an old infantryman could appreciate the significance of something like that

[ August 25, 2006, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Battlefront.com]

First Sergeant,

That's surprising since the ME is the one place where "sand" is easy to find.

Well, I encourage any guys here that went in with the initial OIF push to correct me if I am wrong, because I'm going on rather scant info.

One problem with sandbags, IRL, is that they do draw attention to a defensive line. A slit trench, done right, is difficult to see. I'm wondering if the thought is you get more protection from not being seen and therefore sandbags are not as great as they would appear to be.

- Will we see sandbags around bunkers?

Probably. They would look more interesting, at least.

- What about barbed wire?

Yup. Though again, except for the border areas I don't recall seeing many pictures of barbed wire in use in Iraq. Not sure if this was just because they didn't build defenses in depth or if there is some other reason.

- Finally, what are you doing about roadblocks? They are just a black slab in CMx1, but in RL can represent anything from concrete barriers to burned out cars to collapsed buildings, etc.

We'll have to see. This is a bit more involved than it would first appear.

Cassh,

We'll see what we can shove into houses For sure IEDs will be placeable inside buildings.

MikeyD,

HAH! I hadn't heard that one before. Speaks a lot to the ingenuity of the grunt at the front as well as the character of Stormin Norman.

Steve

[Sixxkiller]

I would rather have sandbags than not have sandbags if i needed them. It usually isnt sandbags that are the problem, its just having static defensive positions that suck. I am pretty sure that even w/o sandbags its pretty obvious that you are in a defensive line. Kinda hard to hide it in the desert.

But as long as I dont not have to fill them I am happy.

[John Kettler]

Saw one of thoise MOUT training programs on A&E or TLC in which the simulated OPFOR completely ruined the U.S. player's day by stuffing the stairwell with old truck tires interlaced with barbed wire. Attempts to clear this superb countermobility device were met with hails of grenades and a stream of U.S casualties, much to the consternation of the once arrogant attack force.

Regards,

John Kettler

[akd]

OIF I:

but rocks will do also:

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, lots of use of them by US forces for sure. Gotta keep people like Sixxkiller busy The pictures of Iraqi positions are like the ones I am familiar with... used for hard point defenses (bunkers). For trenches I don't see them as being SOP.

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by akd:

Are those guys really US Army? Or are they private security types? I don't recognize the uniforms.

Michael

[akd]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yup, lots of use of them by US forces for sure. Gotta keep people like Sixxkiller busy The pictures of Iraqi positions are like the ones I am familiar with... used for hard point defenses (bunkers). For trenches I don't see them as being SOP.

Steve

Hmm...well, as far as the Iraqi defenses during OIF were concerned, the nature of the campaign seemed to dictate either defense from fortified positions or from hasty fighting positions. Of course, you only need to look at pictures of Baghdad before and during the campaign to see how extensively the Iraqis used sandbags to create new defensive positions.

Of course, I'm not sure how relevant this is, as the Syrian forces may have a very different philosophy towards improving their fighting positions. The Syrian defenses between the Golan Heights and Damascus would probably be a better indicator of what an invading force might encounter.

Syria is not Iraq.

[Battlefront.com]

Michael,

Those look to be vehicle crewmen judging by the helmets. Guy on the left could possibly be wearing one piece coverall (it is not camouflaged).

AKD, the pic you just posted is yet again a hard point defensive location. Like I said, this isn't a point of debate as far as I can tell. The question was specifically if they used sandbags along trenchlines. I really don't know, but I suspect not. Only around fortified positions within the defenses is my guess.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

Wasn't this the guy with the poisoned chalices from "The Princess Bride"? (and I seem to recall a reference to "fighting a land war in Asia").

[Blofeld]

it's an interesting question. I have looked around and it is clear that sandbags are used around bunkers and strongpoints, but for trenches, the answer is not clear.

I found this article on Russian defensive doctrine in the desert, which presumably Syria would follow, which seems to imply that sandbags are used around trenches, but it's not that evident.

Desert Defense and Surviving PGM's: the New Russian View

[cassh]

Sandbagging and trenches - depends how long you've occupied the position - as the third phase of defence when you introduce overhead cover you'll use sandbags to hold the corrugated iron in place and damn the topsoil that covers it before replacing the turf and any camouflage. Also entry points and corners are often sandbagged to prevent erosion / damage to the ground from use. The Hessian sacking is obviously more resistant to the comings and goings of a soldier than raw earth (dirt I believe in America?) and therefore a simple way to ensure the structure retains some degree of habitability.

[vincere]

Wasn't this the guy with the poisoned chalices from "The Princess Bride"?

Inconceivable. Unless... of course you're bluffing; but then you'd know that I'd know you're bluffing. Inconceivable.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

One of the best scenes ever.

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait til I get going! Now, where was I?

Man in Black: Australia.

Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're just stalling now.

Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!

Man in Black: Then make your choice.

Vizzini: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?

Vizzini: [Vizzini gestures up and away from the table. Roberts looks. Vizzini swaps the goblets]

Man in Black: What? Where? I don't see anything.

Vizzini: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter.First, let's drink. Me from my glass, and you from yours.

Man in Black, Vizzini: [they drink ]

Man in Black: You guessed wrong.

Vizzini: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

Vizzini: [Vizzini stops suddenly, and falls dead to the right]

Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your cup that was poisoned.

Man in Black: They were both poisoned. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder.

[cassh]

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die

My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die

[mav1]

Speaking of trenches and bukkers, at the start of the 2nd battle in operations, the player could see all the trenches and bunkers on the map even though it wasn't spotted by the player.

By the way, will small artillery pieces be able to be put in factories or houses?

[John Kettler]

First Sergeant,

Terrific find! Many thanks, and it takes me back to my threat analyst days.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Dirtweasle]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The suggestion about netting was made specifically thought up to hide the trenches. So I shot that idea down because it actually makes them easier to spot

What if the "cloak of invisibility" was able to be extended to cammo netting simaler to the VIED thingy? Then maybe your squads or other units would not see the netting and maybe sandbags until close enough or careful enough to spot it.

[aka_tom_w]

bump for Lt Bull