Battlefront.com Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 True, especially if you don't bother to check. Like what happened in Afghanistan. There probably isn't much we can do about this for now. They have to be part of the terrain mesh. I can think of a decent work around, but I know Charles will give it the big Raspberry Sound for getting it into 1.0. I don't think the work around is going to be easy from a code perspective. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Steve - cool beans - I was being a worrier. I look forward to making 1m wide by 1499mm deep trenches! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 cassh, Steve - cool beans - I was being a worrier. I look forward to making 1m wide by 1499mm deep trenches!Hehe... at first glance I thought you said 1499 METERS "Hello?! Anybody down there? Johnson, drop a thermine grenade in there and see what happens" [sound of grenade whistling away into the darkness] [long wait] [even longer wait] [still more waiting] "Oh heck, we can't stand around here all day. Put a board over this crack and let's keep moving" Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Are we gonna have thermite grenades? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Eventually, for sure. Right now there are just frags only. We also want to simulate smoke, thermine, and flash/bang grenades (in that order). Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Oh sweet mother of God. I might get to melt something! Kinda semi-related, are there gonna be claymores or something similar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Well, there are command-detonated IEDs, so are non-improvised weapons any harder to put in? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Steve, sorry to keep asking my "worrier" (no mentioning sheep anyone) questions - but are smoke grenades not sine qua non for infantrymen, especially in a MOUT battle? I hope these are in for CMSF? Also in CMx2 game 2 will there be a difference between offensive and defensive grenades as they are quite different and it would be cool to model this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 No plans on adding claymores since the US is assumed to be on the offensive in our setting. Not to say we can't do this, it just isn't on the ToDo List for now. cassh, smoke grenades will be in 1.0 if I have any say in the matter Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Err no I don't mean claymores or any positioned/command detonated weapon when referring to defensive grenades and offensive grenades, but rather thrown hand grenades. Defensive Grenade A defensive grenade is wrapped in a fragmentation coil and designed to cover a wide kill area with high velocity particles when the explosive filler detonates. This type of grenade is best thrown from cover. See:- M67 Fragmentation Grenade http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m67.htm Offensive Grenade An offensive grenade (often referred to as an overpressure or concussion grenade) has a thin case designed not to fragment and has a high proportion of explosive filling to create a blast effect. Ideal for confined areas where overpressure is harnessed fully. See:- Mk3A2 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk3a2.htm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I guess flashbangs would be considered offensive grenades, though I can't say I've heard anybody ever use that term. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Flash bag is non-lethal unless an accident occurs and it is right next to you when it goes off. However, a Mk3A2 is like an ubber flash-bang and in confined spaces is a killing weapon; offensive or concussion grenades are especially useful for clearing bunkers, trenches and in MOUT engagements, whilst allowing your own guys to really "lean into" the attack. Think of them as lying somewhere between a flash-bang and a satchel-charge...hehe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Ah... never even heard of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Why wouldn't you just throw a frag grenade in there? That is a kiling weapon in confined spaces too, and you have to keep friendlies out of the way of the blast in both cases. Oh and good news about the trench/gully/ditch capabilities of the graphics engine. If the scenario designer simply makes a square ditch in the shape of a trench, will it really behave like a custom dug trench? I mean will the game engine give the same bonuses in concealment and cover to troops inside that they should get, or will it give unpredictable results due to it being a part of the map. For example, the height grid may be define in millimetres, but is the spotting system going to ensure the guys in a hole can fire their weapons and spot and be spotted in a realistic way. I think foxholes and trenches should get special treatment as designated defensive fortifications rather than just being depressions in the map. [ August 22, 2006, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Hoolaman ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Assaulting a trench - if the grenade goes in, all is well - but if you mis-post it, or the enemy manages to lob it back, then with an offensive grenade you won't take out the assualt group with your own grenade fragments... Our L109 frag grenade has 2000 fragments and a 20m kill zone - so if you balls up it can be costly. In a bunker or confined room or space in a building where a dog-leg or some cover exists the overpressure is more effective that fragmentation at killing - meaning they are better killing weapons than frag grenades in fortified MOUT defences, zig-zigging comms trenches, compartmentalised bunkers or weapons pits etc etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Forgot to put the offensive grenade on my list. Yeah, I hope to get that in there. I also think of them as being potentially less damaging. AFAIK it won't rip through thin walls, floors, and ceillings like a frag will. True or not? We'll have to see how trenches work. LOS shouldn't be a problem no matter what is done. The game system doesn't have any notion of artificial constructs. If there is a trench that is 3m deep, anybody moving in it will be protected from LOS/LOF unless the targeting unit is high enough to see down in. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Sweet - lots of bangy stuff when house clearing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: There probably isn't much we can do about this for now. Cammo nets and sandbags? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Crap. Does this mean that I will NOT be able to have a trench 999 millimeters across? Please fix or do somethink. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Cammo nets and sandbags?Which would make them even easier to spot since, remember, this is a simulated world and not the real deal. If we put a little camo netting over something we might as well have bullseye graphic on it as well The way to fix this is to have a temporary "skin" of ground terrain stretched over the top of the trench. The enemy player would see the skin until the trenches were spotted, then the skin would be removed and the player would know the trenches are there. But this is not an easy thing to do since there is no support in the code for anything even remotely like it. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 The way to fix this is to have a temporary "skin" of ground terrain stretched over the top of the trench. The enemy player would see the skin until the trenches were spotted, then the skin would be removed and the player would know the trenches are there. But this is not an easy thing to do since there is no support in the code for anything even remotely like it.Maybe not in this iteration but we hope you’ll give it a shot for the WWII CMx2 series of games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Originally posted by cassh: Maybe not in this iteration but we hope you’ll give it a shot for the WWII CMx2 series of games. Amen, brother! Patiently stalking Spandau nests in hedgerow hell. The "skin" concept could be an element of the oft requested "Iron Man" Super Duper Extreme FOW option where players have limited visibility into distant terrain details, as well as limited "god views". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Pfffffff. WWII is so passe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Dumb civilian question. What about the combat shotgun in the game? I don't know the military designation so I don't know if its on BFC's weapons list or not. The U.S. fought to keep the shotgun in its inventory just for trench (and house) clearing. But now that I think of it, over the past year or two I don't know if I've spotted combat shotguns in Iraq combat patrol photos. I'm wondering if the weapon's perhaps been withdrawn because it just makes too much of a mess when doing house-to-house patrols. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 We have decided not to include combat shotguns. From what we can tell they aren't used that much by the Army (I think the Marines use them more?) for frontline combat. And when used they are more likely to use them for forced entry since a 12guage slug has a lot of say about whether locked doors will remain that way The bulk of the shotguns in service now are a mishmosh of civilian weapons. However, the military has been farting around with a really nice modular system which, when broken down, can be mouned under the barrel like a M203. It is called the XM-26 LSS. It saw some operational testing in Afghanistan a few years ago and supposedly it was very well received. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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