CMBO vs CMBB demo - poor scenarios

[Scipio]

Michael Dorosh, if some different people come up with the same problem frequently, and many people agree, then maybe there is indeed something wrong, and if maybe the number of those who disagree is small, then maybe the few people should at least request their point of view? Just a question, do think the CMBB scenarios are great and they are a good publicity?

Rick614 I'm pretty sure that the CMBB demo scenarios are taken from the full version. What makes you believe that it would take more time and effort to select other scenarios?

[V]

Originally posted by Scipio:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by V:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

I second Scipio.

Just a question. Imagine CMBO and CMBB are two different games, both costs the same, and you mom (or wife ) allows you to buy only one of them. You base your decission only on the fun with the scenarios in the demo : which game would you buy?

CM:BB no question.</font>

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Scipio:

Michael Dorosh, if some different people come up with the same problem frequently, and many people agree, then maybe there is indeed something wrong, and if maybe the number of those who disagree is small, then maybe the few people should at least request their point of view? Just a question, do think the CMBB scenarios are great and they are a good publicity?

Rick614 I'm pretty sure that the CMBB demo scenarios are taken from the full version. What makes you believe that it would take more time and effort to select other scenarios?

good points

are we then left to wonder if the War in the East (as modeled in CMBB) was a one sided affair? (at least one sided in the early years for the Germans and then again one sided in the later years for the Soviets?)

the scenarios (if they are both selected from among the MANY did they say 60?) could be interpretted as representive of other scenarios which, while historically accurate could be considered largely one sided engagenments, where one side with all the armour over runs the other side with little or no armour, like the scenario on the steppe?

:confused:

-tom w

[dalem]

Originally posted by Scipio:

So you think it is impossible to make a scenario that can serve both parties - the long time CMBO players and the newbies?

No, I don't think it's impossible at all. I think that BFC decided not to do that and I think it's a little rude to keep harping on the concept.

-dale

[Cameroon]

The point those who are saying, "Why another thread?", are making is that we've already been over this. BFC/BTS is well aware of the opinion (and probably fact - though I play them quite a bit) that the CMBB demo is not as replayable as the CMBO demo.

So rehashing it over and over does what? You can't make them know the opinion more. The demo in your hands won't magically change. The best that could happen would be a scenario download, but we hardly need another thread about this. If they're going to do that, they'll do it.

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

Originally posted by Cameroon:

So rehashing it over and over does what? You can't make them know the opinion more.

Read what Scipio has said above to Michael. And you can make someone notice that something is important and of common interest when many people express the same/similar opinion.

The demo in your hands won't magically change. The best that could happen would be a scenario download...

Oh my god, what a catastrophe this would be! :eek:

BTW, if you don't like the threat, don't read it. There is a peng threat since years, I don't understand what it is about and what it has to do with CM and why it is not moved to the general forum, but I just ignore it.

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Scipio:

Michael Dorosh, if some different people come up with the same problem frequently, and many people agree, then maybe there is indeed something wrong, and if maybe the number of those who disagree is small, then maybe the few people should at least request their point of view? Just a question, do think the CMBB scenarios are great and they are a good publicity?

Rick614 I'm pretty sure that the CMBB demo scenarios are taken from the full version. What makes you believe that it would take more time and effort to select other scenarios?

It's not that we disagree with your views on the scenarios (I don't), it's just that we've already been over this.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by dalem:

I would hope that if the subject keeps recurring, some notice would be taken, otherwise I see no point to this whole forum. I hate to see people here shouted down because they don't agree with the party line.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Captain Wacky:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scipio:

Michael Dorosh, if some different people come up with the same problem frequently, and many people agree, then maybe there is indeed something wrong, and if maybe the number of those who disagree is small, then maybe the few people should at least request their point of view? Just a question, do think the CMBB scenarios are great and they are a good publicity?

Rick614 I'm pretty sure that the CMBB demo scenarios are taken from the full version. What makes you believe that it would take more time and effort to select other scenarios?

It's not that we disagree with your views on the scenarios (I don't), it's just that we've already been over this.</font>

[Barrett's Privateer]

Many complicated arguments but the end result in my case is still very simple; with the info I currently have I really can't justify buying CMBB.

Big whoop I supose many of you say. (And in the grand scheme of things to a company that plans on selling thousands.)

Still customers are earned (or lost) one at a time. I thought that the more customers, the better games BTS can make for everyone.

So, for what its worth, here's one customer who found the demo weak and only served to nudge him not to buy CMBB.

Perhaps it was just the scenarios I disliked, not the game. But if I'm correctly percieve the hardline stance the company has adopted on the demo, then they must be satisfied that they're hardcore market is still pleased.

Too bad... if this is the case. I'm genuinely disappointed.

I was rather hoping BTS was going to continue to try to appeal to both hard-core military buffs and the general gaming public (Like me:)).

[Nick Schieben]

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree on some points.

I think it's great that a demo was provided, and don't forget - some decent companies don't even go that far, and even without one I would have already placed my preorder. I just hope the effort towards giving us the demo doesn't impede BFC getting the final touches into CMBB.

Since I'm in Canada, our bumbing customs officers and the incompetent Canada Post will ensure that I'll hsve to wait a few weeks longer than many players, but guess what? I certainly never played CMBO to death, and will probably savour a few more western front scenarios while I'm waiting. Not to mention IL-2

Thanks for the CMBB demo BFC! The scenarios gave me a taste of what is to come, and I'm really looking forward to it!

Regards

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Barrett's Privateer:

I was rather hoping BTS was going to continue to try to appeal to both hard-core military buffs and the general gaming public (Like me:)).

I have played Citadel at least a dozen times trying to learn how to deploy and use inferior armor and inadequate AT guns and infantry to try to stop a superior force. I have played Yelnia Stare several times from both sides while unlearning tactics that worked or were necessary in CMBO. If you don't see the value in these scenarios then maybe CM is not for you and that's ok. I am looking forward to all the neew features that we haven't seen in the demo. Perhaps BFC will add another demo scenario after the full game is released and those who have purchased the game have had a chance to be surprised by the new features. Some companies forsake their existing customers in the attempt to attract new ones. Other companies prefer to satisfy their existing and paying customers before seeking new ones. I think BFC falls into the latter category and I agree with their practices.

[rune]

Rick614 I'm pretty sure that the CMBB demo scenarios are taken from the full version. What makes you believe that it would take more time and effort to select other scenarios?

Wrong. The scenarios were made for the demo.

Rune

[Barrett's Privateer]

Pvt. Ryan,

Sorry, I guess I wasn't very clear. I actually DO have CMBO.

Well, technically it was a gift from my girlfriend after 3 months of my constant chatter about the demo!

So, I guess I am (was?) an existing customer.

[ September 08, 2002, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: Barrett's Privateer ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

Yes, I was aware that you have CMBO and I meant to address that point, but I forgot. What I should have said was that if you enjoy CMBO you will probably enjoy CMBB. There is obviously a large variety of fighting situations on the Eastern Front and the demo scenarios are just a sample of what we will see in the full version. The demo scenarios are more of a tutorial for people who played CMBO to introduce them to the new features and resulting need to learn new tactics for CMBB.

[ASL Veteran]

1. Nobody will be talking about the demo scenarios once the full game is out.

2. Somebody who has never played CMBO will find the scenarios enjoyable to play as they likely will not have to play each one ten times before deciding whether they want to buy CMBB or not. The scenarios are just fine the first time through, and that's all it will take for someone to decide whether they want the game or not. Scenario balance or replayability will not be a factor for those who haven't been exposed to CMBO already.

3. Assuming that the number of people posting in this thread is representative of the opinions of the gaming public at large is a faulty assumption.

4. If the playing of the demo scenarios has caused someone to decide not to get CMBB, then they were probably predisposed not to get CMBB in the first place. Either that, or they didn't like CMBO all that much and they were hoping that the improvements from CMBO to CMBB would sway their opinion of this series of games from negative/neutral to the positive.

5. If someone doesn't fall under point 4 above, then all they are doing is whining about the demo scenarios. The genesis of this pathetic whining is the fact that they don't have the full game in their possession yet and they don't have the stamina to wait another two weeks for it to be released. For those who think they fall under point 5 and say, "That's not it at all, these demo scenarios caused me to decide not to get the game." then see point number four above for your appropriate category - otherwise just accept that you belong under point 5 and you are in denial.

6. The demo scenarios aren't the game. CMBB and CMBO are not scenario driven, they are game mechanics driven. The scenarios don't drive the game mechanics, the game mechanics drive the scenarios. This then means that any scenario, when taken in isolation, is not representative of CMBB as a whole since the potential settings for scenarios is virtually limitless. Anyone who understands this point and is still whining about the scenarios definitely falls under the auspices of point 5. Someone who doesn't understand this point probably falls into the auspices of point 4 because they haven't taken the time to explore CMBO to its fullest.

[kmead]

Barrett's Privateer:

Many complicated arguments but the end result in my case is still very simple; with the info I currently have I really can't justify buying CMBB.

Fine, but I am lacking an understanding of what would make you want to buy the final game. Do you know and just can't communicate it? The current demo does actually show many of the new features that differentiate it from CMBO and its competition so from that standpoint it has been effective. There is the possibility that you really don't care for the genre (turn based wargames) and that the game really isn't for you. Which is an OK thing, I doubt that the demo would have helped you either way.

But if I'm correctly percieve the hardline stance the company has adopted on the demo, then they must be satisfied that they're hardcore market is still pleased.

I don't know what you mean by this, the demo is done and released, where's the hard line? I don't think I have ever seen a second demo from any company nor a revision of an existing demo. I am not much of a demo chaser so feel free to point out where I am wrong.

I was rather hoping BTS was going to continue to try to appeal to both hard-core military buffs and the general gaming public (Like me:)).

I am niether a hard core military buff nor someone who likes the games that appeal to the general gaming public. For me BFC has managed to create a game series that appeals to me and apparently the grogs of the world. I look at this game in much the same way I enjoyed the Sim City series before it became completely bogged in minutae to the point of unplayability (and expansion packs out the wazoo). It along with other games from that company were Mac originally and maybe therein lies the tie for me. I find many Mac people (we of the old line ) tend not to go for rts or many of the other mainstream games (I bought my PS2 to play GT3 as my other love in life is driving cars, I have no other games for it) but instead for some decidedly odd games.

I am sorry to hear you may choose to not buy CMBB, anyone who doesn't is indeed a loss to this community (and of course a loss of revenue for BFC). I am not clear on what you expected the demo to demonstrate to you (I have not seen your posts in other threads), but apparently it has not met your needs nor pulled your purse strings enough to pay the tithe.

Please continue to state what you are after or need so that in the future your needs and the needs of other users like you can be better met.

[ September 08, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: kmead ]

[Rob Murray]

For me it was the reviews that CMBO got. I just happened to find the game when I was on vacation, did a little research & picked up the game. Was glad I did. Best wargame ( best game period ) I own. I only hope CMBB is as good ( ordered it last night & downloading demo right now ).

[billcarey]

A thesis:

The CMBO demo scenarios appear better to CMBO players than the CMBB demo scenarios because our prior experience with CMBO biases us:

1. The CMBO Gold Demo represented a huge leap forward in playing coolness as compared to the CMBO Beta Demo (which, while it hooked many of us on CM, is, in retrospect, pretty goofy.) The CMBB demo is not being compared with a beta quality demo, nay, not even with a Gold Quality Demo, it is being compared with a whole other game (!). Compare the CMBB demo to the CMBO beta demo and it looks a whole lot better.

2. Our ability to enjoy the CMBB demo is affected by our prior experience playing CMBO. I still find myself giving fast move orders instead of advance and telling troops to advance instead of setting a covered arc. I'm used to not wasting ammo points on area firing, and being able to move men much more quickly than possible in CMBB.

So: I think the only way to realistically assess the betterness of one demo over the other is to guage the reactions of people who have never played one or the other. Everyone who has cut their teeth on CMBO will be a biased observer. Go Heisenberg!

[Harv]

My $5Cdn (2 cents US) worth or rambling is that we were simply spoiled by the 2 BO demos and all of the excellent scenarios that have appeared since then. Also, possibly our biggest problem is we have too much time until we receive CM:BB to pick them apart. Personally I'm underwhelmed by the scenario choice simply because I expected more, but after thinking about it I can see (maybe) why these ones were included.

I think the demo will sell the game to new players (the whole point of a demo IMO) once CM:BB is released. Why? Ideally (hopefully?) new players would try the BO demo, and then see the improvements from the BB demo and order both. For the new players the 2 together are perfect, and compliment each other very well.

The fact that the replayabilty of the current scenarios is low will soon be a non-issue, as in a couple more weeks there will be more than we'll know what to do with.

Harv

[Cameroon]

Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cameroon:

So rehashing it over and over does what? You can't make them know the opinion more.

Read what Scipio has said above to Michael. And you can make someone notice that something is important and of common interest when many people express the same/similar opinion.</font>

[gunnergoz]

Gosh, I'm a bit surprised at the negative vibes I've picked up here. I have enjoyed the demo scenarios as they've forced me to take a hard look at how CMBB has changed the basic way I play this game. The results tell me that I'll enjoy this game even more than the first.

I'm one of those guys who came to CM late...I was not impressed by the original demo for some reason, perhaps expecting more flash. Once I read the reviews though, I took a chance, bought the game and after that I was hooked. Perhaps some of you remember my "gunner grass" mania in the modding community. That's how into it I got. Now I have even more to play and mess around with. I'm content, and then some.

As always, you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't ever please everybody...Those who are unhappy will have to wait for competitive games to come out. But I will bet a dollar to a donut that no company producing a competing product, will spend as much effort or passion in developing and refining their product. I also very much doubt that their developers will be as accessible to the community as the BTS/BFC fellows are.

Just my 2 bits.

[Panzer Leader]

Honestly, no one here would be able to give an unbiased view of how "newcomers" would like the demo, and if it would appeal to them. We are all old crusty CMBO lovers.

I would guess that the main point of releasing a demo is #1: Attract new customers (by far the most important); and #2: Show off some new stuff to the regulars (which must have been a VERY minor concern but they did well)

Who can say what a newbie would think of the scenarios? I sure can't, but personally my thoughts on the demo scenarios were thus:

Citadel: Rather long, boring and dull. I hate huge sparsely populated maps, and those were definitely huge and sparse. I guess the first time as the Germans I liked it simply due to the unknown, but it bears little resemblance to a real battle in my opinion. Where's combined arms? No self-propelled artillery?

Yelnia: I loved it from BOTH sides, and I don't know, is it really that unbalanced? I had a hard time winning from both sides, but I did pull it off, and I liked that battle a lot.

I also liked the tutorial, simple, small, and a bit of everything.

If I was to do the demo scenarios, the only thing I might change was to add something like a tiger (everyone loves tigers) or something BIG - sturmpanther, KV-2, something to really catch the attention. Panzer IIIs and T-34's don't really have the WOW factor, but that's just me.

I liked it, would welcome a new scanario, but my money has been waiting since last year for this moment. Who knows what the newcomers will think, only time will tell...

[EDIT:] One lst thing, it was those GIANT hills in VOT that turned me onto the game. It really drove the 3D aspect home, and I would've thought BFC would get some big hills into the demo so potential customers could really get a feel for the 3d LOS affects, but I guess they know more then I.

[ September 08, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Panzer Leader ]

[SuperSulo]

What are you talking about, poor scena... Ah, I see what you are trying to do!

Uhm YEAH! The two scenarios sucks! We need atleast two more before 20 september! That's right, at least two more... or three.

PS: Please make the tracers scalable/flipable

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon:

There is a peng threat . . .

A Peng threat?

Nay, a Peng PROMISE!

Steve