CMBO vs CMBB demo - poor scenarios

[Wallybob]

Ok, either you like the demo, or you don't. I personally do.

1) buy the game

2)don't buy it

3)wait a while for opinions and reviews

endlessly whining about what you want or don't is counterproductive. BFC had reasons they put out what they did on the demo. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. I have already preordered, and will probably make this a Christmas present or two to some gaming-minded friends.

It's a mother-beautiful game, and it's gonna be there! (to paraphrase Oddball)

[KG_Jag]

Almost all of us on this forum love CMBO. I'm convinced that some even sleep with the CD (even if they have a crack). Amost all of us would buy CMBB under almost any circumstances. However, to me the most important thing about a demo is get expand you audience (aka market segment for you Harvard Business School types).

I have first hand experience with this. In the spring of 2001, I was visiting my nephews, who I rarely see due to distance. The oldest, who was about 13 was heavily into total Annihilation on their P II. I had my laptop with CMBO. I showed the kids the game, and they immediately took to it. This was a pleasant surprise because CMBO is significantly (but not totally) different from what they were playing on computer and console. I started them off with the tutorial. They loved the quick action and challenge of the scenarios they played. Their interest built during my weekend with them. When last I checked this summer, they were still fired up about CMBO.

These are the potential new players the CMBB needs to impress. I don't think the new demo gets there. The graphics are not great in terms of the cutting edge games they play. Most important, the fast engaging gameplay that last until the end of the battle is not there either. I want new players of the CMBB demo to be as fired up as my nephews were about CMBO. Maybe sometime down the road a new demo will be created to achieve that objective. $45 is alot to ask of a new player. If he/she is not sold by the demo, they will not come out of pocket for the full price of the game.

[ September 08, 2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: jagcommander ]

[Abbott]

Whining, I haven’t read any in this thread. I have read many people expressing their opinions.

My take on the scenarios, they definitely showed off new features which I enjoyed. I did not find them as much fun as the CMBO scenarios nor did they have the replay ability I found with “Chance Encounter” which is still a fun battle to play.

I do agree that “It’s a mutha beautiful game and it’s going to be there”!

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Abbott:

Whining, I haven’t read any in this thread. I have read many people expressing their opinions.

[Andreas]

I am always very suspicious when someone tells me how other people will feel about something, based on, err, not a lot of evidence. I guess it is the empiricist in me.

Well, I think that if you are totally new, you DL the demo from Happy Puppy, and you sit down and take your German tanks for a spin, you are going to have a riot of a time. If you are totally new, and you try to take your Soviet conscripts into the German lines in the Yelnia salient, you will tear your hair out, and curse Steve and his descendents for 7 generations. What you will not be is bored. If you care at all for wargames, and are not completely brain dead, you will then send a cheque, crawl on your knees to Steve's hut with cash, offer to repair his front door, order Madmatt a dozen bimbos through an escort service, or sacrifice your first-born just to be allowed to get this game. Why? Because it rocks, and the demo shows it.

Why you ask? Because I say so. And let's face it, that is exactly the same evidence anyone complaining about the demo has too.

[gunnergoz]

There is something to be said for the idea that the CMBB scenarios better entice the existing fan base more than whet the appetite if newcomers. Was this deliberate? An oversight? I know that a lot of time went into the scenarios in the demo, but is it possible that the team could have brought in some fresh blood to give input as the demo was being prepared?

Comments?

[Jarmo]

I think the demo will sell the game to new players (the whole point of a demo IMO) once CM:BB is released. Why? Ideally (hopefully?) new players would try the BO demo, and then see the improvements from the BB demo and order both. For the new players the 2 together are perfect, and compliment each other very well.

Pretty good explanation...

Anyway, the reason I'm "whining", is not to get me a new scenario.

It's not because I'm indecisive of my CMBB purchase,

I knew I'll take it years ago, as soon as I heard there'll be

a second installment.

I just worry the demo might not be the kind advertisement and introduction to CMBB the game deserves.

It's in my best interest that BFC sells a whole lot of games, gets filthy rich and affords to hire even more staff to work with further installments. In short, I want CMII, mediterranean as soon as possible! And early war, and CMBO redone.

And I'm already sold on all of those.

[Pvt. Ryan]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Why you ask? Because I say so.

Please provide a link to your thought processes.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by Jarmo:

"I just worry the demo might not be the kind advertisement and introduction to CMBB the game deserves. "

I agree with that statement

and maybe a few more of us here should agree we are greedy and spoiled by the 4 STUNNING and FUN scenarios in the CMBO demo. (both demos combined for 4 scenarios)

Sure I have preordered the game. I am willing to bet most of the "whinners" in this thread have too.

And IMHO I think the bottom line is it wouldn't matter how "questionable" or "distasteful" those two demo scenarios were anyone who enjoyed or enjoys CMBO would be a SURE sale for CMBB.

NOW what Jarmo, myself and few others are trying to say here is since all the exsiting CMBO players are a SURE sale why can't we see some demo scenario's with the FUN FACTOR of Chance Encounter or Last Defence (admit it taking on that Tiger with those three Hellcats up on that hill was FUN!! ) so as to attract a larger market share and dip in that HUGE wild largely untapped video gamer "mass market" and try to appeal to those players and that market with some REALLY fun well balanced, instant action, (think HIGH FUN FACTOR) demo scenario's?

Why not just release one more demo scenario that would attempt to appeal to the non-wargamer market segement to increase sales because we all know all the existing CMBO players/owners WILL buy CMBB and anything else Steve and Charles produce sight unseen.

AND by the way if you are watching Sunday afternoon NFL football you might be seeing ads for Sega's NFL football 2K3 for Sony Playstation 2 and if you are wondering what GREAT graphics look like these ads on TV make these console game cyber athletes look EXACTLY like the real thing I am watching when the live action resumes.

see this link http://www.sgn.cc/view.php?t=NFL|2K3|PS2&p=/football/sega_sports_n fl_2k3&m=ps2&i=10&n=24&f=preview.shtml&w=1

http://www.sgn.cc/view.php?t=NFL|2K3|PS2&p=/football/sega_sports_n fl_2k3&m=ps2&i=12&n=24&f=preview.shtml&w=1

Ok so its only a football video game on a CONSOLE no less but those Graphics of those football players ROCK compared to stick figures of groups of 3 guys running around with rifles. :confused:

-tom w

[ September 08, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Ron]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Well, I think that if you are totally new, you DL the demo from Happy Puppy, and you sit down and take your German tanks for a spin, you are going to have a riot of a time. If you are totally new, and you try to take your Soviet conscripts into the German lines in the Yelnia salient, you will tear your hair out, and curse Steve and his descendents for 7 generations.

I can relate to that after having my brother-in-law and nephew over yesterday afternoon, neither of whom had seen CM before AFAIK. Both of them wanted to push the German tanks around in Citadel and were having a great time until I opened up with the AT guns and broke their hearts! Yelnia they weren't so enthusiastic about at all, a little overwhelmed I think, and we quit that after only a couple turns. Will they buy CMBB? I doubt it, but not because of the quality of the Demo scenarios, one of which definitely pushed their buttons, but because neither are into history or the type of game CMBB is, preferring instead Ghost Recon and the like. If the interest isn't there to begin with, the *supposed* lack of quality scenarios, or quantity for that matter, can in no way make up for it.

All three of the Demo scenarios showcase very well the changes incorporated and have been quite enjoyable, even the second and third go around. Why? Because this is a whole new game to learn, the first couple minutes with the attacking Russians in Yelnia will show that. Do they offer the replayability of a CE? No, but then again they are no worse either than Reisberg or Last Defense or Valley of Trouble, IMO. The one concrete thing lacking I think is some form of reinforcements, which is always an added element of suspense.

For me I will continue to play the Demo, learning over again some things and some new ones on top of that, and wait until the full version arrives when the *real* fun begins.

Ron

[MrNoobie]

franky i dont care at this point...i already preordered ....there so many WWII games im looking forward to...GI Combat, Blitzkrieg, RTSWWII (or something) i even enjoy FPS and there are plent out there with a WWII theme see for yourselves

WWII First Persion Shooters

[Battlefront.com]

Well, I suppose I should chip in my 2 bits worth because a) I made *all* the demo scenarios (CMBO and CMBB) and well... I in no small way made both games. I therefore think I have some degree of authority on this subject

First of all, to correct one false statement... the CMBB scenarios, just like the CMBO ones, were custom made for the sole purpose of the demo. They were not made to be included on the CD and, as a matter of fact, I can't even remember if we put them on the CMBB CD So assume that these scenarios (*all* the demo scenarios) were carefully crafted to achieve the maximum result.

The next thing people need to realize is that the world is a very diverse place. Wargamers are no less diverse than the world around them. Certainly gamers in general are diverse as well. This means it is absolutely idiotic to assume that we could please all the people all the time. The inverse logic therefore is that no matter what we do some people are not going to be happy with the demo itself or the scenarios that are included. If anybody can not understand the fundamental importance of this point, please skip the rest of this post, log off this BBS, and don't come back until you do.

It is a fact that some people download the same CMBO demos, which some people here appear to think are perfection in and of themselves, and hated them. So much so that not only did they not buy CMBO, but to this day say they hate it and won't even download the CMBB demo to see if things were improved. Again, there will always be a variety of reactions and therefore don't speak as if there wasn't.

On top of there being no way to please all the people all the time, due to the vastness of the Eastern Front and CMBB, there was absolutely no way we could adequately represent it in a demo. Even if we had included a half dozen scenarios. So if you didn't see what you wanted to see in the two included scenarios, don't be surprised. I am sure Finns would have loved to had their home forces in a scenario or Stalingrad lovers would have loved to have a huge built up street battle. That right there would double the number of scenarios we would have to include. And would that satisfy everybody? Hardly.

OK, hopefully folks will understand now that expecting that it is even possible for us to please everybody is totally unrealistic and completely unfair. And that leaves the reality that some people just aren't going to like what they downloaded to some degree or another. Now that you have (hopefully) realized this, get over it. Otherwise it is nothing but whining. Tell me... when a parent tells the redfaced-puffy eyed-child for the 50th time he can't have the piece of candy he feels is rightfully his, is this constructive feedback of whining? At some point harping on the same thing over and over again ceases to have any value to anybody except the person doing the complaining. And that is the definition of whining IMHO.

I would also like to point out that the last whining fest we had was about the "SS" issue. And I think anybody that saw that waste of time will notice some familiar faces in this thread. We not only pay attention to customer feedback, we also pay attention to patterns. Whiners are not considered high on our list of customers we feel need to be paid attention to.

Follow up post about demo stuff coming right up...

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

Hi Steve

Thanks for the post

Just to be fair I was not one of the whinners on the "SS not in the CDV version" issue.

BUT I am thrilled to see optics modeled in CMBB !

See I still have a sense of humour

-tom w

[ September 08, 2002, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Len]

Is it a bit early to ask when we can expect to see the CMIII demo?

<ducking>

[Pvt. Ryan]

No, it's never too early. But for your edification, CMBB is CM2. The engine rewrite will be CMII. The next game to be released, regardless of which engine it uses, will be CM3.

[Battlefront.com]

OK,

Now I have said my peace about the impossibility of pleasing all the people all the time, as well as my 2 bits worth ($5 CDN ) on the value of whining. Now some more feedback about what the demo scenarios were designed to do from the perspective of the guy who made them...

1. The primary purpose of the demo scenarios was to highlight the differences between CMBO and CMBB. Why is this so important? Because if CMBO customers and game reviewers didn't see how different the game is then we would have a PR fiasco on our hands. Our sales are driven not by faceless gamers who have never bought from us before, but from those who have plunked down their money and evangelism in the past. To put it bluntly, if we did not get the CMBO crowd to see that the two year wait was worth it, we might as well send out our resumes.

2. The secondary purpose of the demo was to NOT pander to the typical stereotypes of the Eastern Front. New gamers would boot up CMBB and say "yup, just as a I thought. Nothing but Tigers and KVs. Yawn... probably nothing more to this than some Stalingrad scenario. Whoops! That is the second scenario. I think I'll pass since I've played tons of games like this already". Instead we wanted people to experience how fresh and rich a CORRECT portrayal of the Eastern Front can be. Honestly, how many of you guys knew that the Germans got their ass kicked backwards and forwards during the battle for Yelnia? When people think "Kursk" do they think PzIIIs going against 45mm AT guns or Tigers and Elephants going against T-34s and SUs? This partially supports #1 but it also simply shows that CMBB is not just CMBO with different tiles and textures, which a scenario with Tigers (for example) could falsely reinforce.

3. The scenarios were also designed to be a challenge. Not just to players in general, but to CMBO players. Again, this gets back to point #1, but it is also just something we wanted to emphasize. CMBB is a game that needs to be mastered if you want to win. Will this turn some newbies off? Sure. But it will also likely turn many on beacuse they are tired of quick fix gaming. Plus, it is doubtful that *any* scenario we chose to make would appeal to the masses any more than these. Like one poster above said, if they ain't into it they won't buy it. Period.

Now, what wasn't the demo supposed to do:

1. Provided hundreds of hours of entertaiment. A demo is simply there to allow you to decide if you want to buy the game or not. It is not supposed to become a way of life for months. That was what happened with CMBO and it was totally unintended. We gave you guys too much. However, because the game's release was delayed for so long this turned out to be not such a bad thing. Which ties into...

2. CMBB will be released in two weeks. There is no question about this. Therefore there is NO NEED for you guys to be given a game that can be played and replayed 400 times. Save up your time and spend it playing 400 different scenarios instead of the same two scenariso 400 times. If you downloaded the demo and think you want to buy the full thing, great. Buy it and spend the next two weeks finishing up chores, house repairs, school assignments, whatever and then when you get the game spend every waking moment playing it. I can assure you that once the full game gets into your hands you won't care about the demo so why get all fluffed up about it when we are talking 2 weeks before the real thing is released?

I have no shame in telling you that some of our Beta Testers hated the demo scenarios. They argued against one or the other quite strongly. But others argued for them just as strongly. And in the end even the guys who didn't like them admitted that the scenarios acheived the goals we wanted them to, which obviously was not the same as their own personal thinking. That was good enough for us (Battlefront - I was not the sole decision maker) to hear and it is why they became the official demo scenarios (with some modifications during testing, of course).

Was this the right decision? Could we have done better? Yes and yes. However, although one can always do better one can also easily make the wrong decision. Nothing I have seen during testing or ESPECIALLY since the demo was released has changed our minds that our thinking was clear headed, practical, and correct. The demo did what we wanted it to do, and that is obviously to put CMBB in the best possible position from a sales point of view. Some of you will disagree, but since it is our asses on the line here our view point is a bit more relevant. Even more relevant because we built up this company and this game from nothing to be a huge success. Therefore, we have a decent amount of reassurance that we know what we aree doing

Steve

[Phantom Rocker]

First, please excuse my clear language.

I really wonder why so many people feel the need to ram their heads into the arses of the BTS crew. Really, there is no need for it - we shouldn't forget that they do it FOR MONEY. This is their JOB. They SELL games to buy a second Lamborgini for each of them. Even if they care a little bit more about their curstomers then other companies: they PROFIT from our ideas and critics, they return a good game, but they surely don't do it for free. So any kind of justified, serious or even honest critic should be welcome here! Just wanted to say this once.

And about the demo. I'm in a new job since some weeks. I played the demo with two of my workmates - after 15 turns (this means ~an half hour) they frequently ask thing like : well, this looks nice, but when happens something?). You know, the point is just, there are so many good games out there. If you don't catches somebodies eye within 5 minutes, you have already a problem. If you din't made it within 10 minutes, you have lost a customer.

It is not that the demo scenarios are bad - if you are a CM fan. Or at least a wargamer. But for anyone else is the demo just to difficult. It takes to much to learn to understand what is happening and to much time UNTIL something is happening. In the CMBO demo, you just sit back and have fun, shells raining on your head tanks moving around and you think - wow.

[Andreas]

Ah well...

Criticism of BTS (no matter how stupid) = well-meaning, justified, because we care, smells of roses

Saying that BTS have done something right = arsekissing

Welcome to the wonderful world of Phantom Rocker with the 5-min attention span.

[Battlefront.com]

Phantom,

I really wonder why so many people feel the need to ram their heads into the arses of the BTS crew.

Funny, I don't see that happening here. In fact, I see some people AGREEING with your point of view and ALSO caling this a big exercise in whining. And that is my opinion too. We have heard this, we have explained our point of view, and nothing is going to change. The cycle is complete, so let's move on. Otherwise the charge of "whining" is correct.

[qote]Really, there is no need for it - we shouldn't forget that they do it FOR MONEY. This is their JOB.

Correct, which is why our opinion of how to market our games means a lot more than any customer's.

They SELL games to buy a second Lamborgini for each of them.

Wrong on two counts. First, none of us have even one Lamborgini and second I want a tank of some sort But in all seriousness, we do this because we love it. There are far better ways for us to get rich than catering to very hard to please wargamers. So if we were in it for the money, you wouldn't be talking to us now unless you were interested in "Flash Whiz Bang Crapola IV - The Short Attentionspan Wetdream".

And about the demo. I'm in a new job since some weeks. I played the demo with two of my workmates - after 15 turns (this means ~an half hour) they frequently ask thing like : well, this looks nice, but when happens something?). You know, the point is just, there are so many good games out there. If you don't catches somebodies eye within 5 minutes, you have already a problem. If you din't made it within 10 minutes, you have lost a customer.

No kidding. Which is why wargaming doesn't appeal to more than a tiny fraction of the total gamer population. This has always been true and always will be true. Games that require thinking skills vs. reflex skills will never appeal to the kinds of people you had try out the demo. So why knock ourselves out catering to an audience that DOES NOT EXIST? Rule #1 in business is to know who your customer is and forget about the rest.

It is not that the demo scenarios are bad - if you are a CM fan. Or at least a wargamer. But for anyone else is the demo just to difficult. It takes to much to learn to understand what is happening and to much time UNTIL something is happening. In the CMBO demo, you just sit back and have fun, shells raining on your head tanks moving around and you think - wow.

I bet the CMBO demo wouldn't have appealed to them any more than the CMBB demo. Call it a very informed "hunch".

I find it really odd that some people think that we should be chasing after people that don't want to play our kind of games. This is suicide in the games business. If we get cross over customers (and we do to a large extent, contrary to the opinion of some) it isn't because we dumbed down the game.

Steve

[Phantom Rocker]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Ah well...

Criticism of BTS (no matter how stupid) = well-meaning, justified, because we care, smells of roses

Saying that BTS have done something right = arsekissing

Welcome to the wonderful world of Phantom Rocker with the 5-min attention span.

Andreas, if people called whinners because they have an own opinion and tell them here, then I think this is poor. BFC is not a wellfare company. I find it funny that Steve remembers us that Scipio has started a SS/Waffengrenadier threat some time ago, but forgets that it was Scipio, too, who tried to bring light into the issue when he made interviews with Moon and someone from CDV about it.

You don't like the 5-minutes idea - I wonder if you are in sales biz. It often just works this way. All what Scipio has said is : the scenarios are not an eye catcher for somebody who is new to CM. I agree, and the experience with my workmates shows the same.

[Pvt. Ryan]

In other words, CM is not trying to be The Sims. Hey, Steve, when is CM: Hot Date coming out?

[Bastables]

Originally posted by Phantom Rocker:

It is not that the demo scenarios are bad - if you are a CM fan. Or at least a war gamer. But for anyone else is the demo just to difficult. It takes to much to learn to understand what is happening and to much time UNTIL something is happening. In the CMBO demo, you just sit back and have fun, shells raining on your head tanks moving around and you think - wow.

What? The argument that CM does not provide enough feed back for the player has been around since the beta demo of CMBO. Then many more players argued that there was too much information= EFOW.

I was always under the impression that CMs target market was the war gamer not the impulse FPS fiend who kinda likes MOH and Day of defeat.

And what the hell is wrong with greater difficulties as the genre matures? Games like Thief and Delta force are considerably more complex and difficult when compared to Doom and Wolvenstien 3d. Good god even during the time of Platform games of my childhood Mario Bros on the NES was incredibly simplistic and easy compared to games such as Gunstar Heroes and Earth worm Jim on the Megadrive/Genisis Never mind the all dancing all sininging 3d platform games my 7-year-old sister plays and considers too easy on her Game Cube and PS2.

And what about the staple genre fighting game? That Double Dragon machine that ate so many 20cent coins at the dairy outside of school just cannot hold a candle to the 3d Virtua Fighters/Teken series that my sister plays on her Dreamcast/PS 2 system. With their multiple hit locations, combos, realistic psychics and other assorted complexities my seven year old sister with her greater understanding kicks me like a small puppy. As the genres mature the games do become more complex and more difficult war gaming is no different. If any thing the war games are inherently complex and difficult due to there nature anyway.

Are the critics justified? Not in my personal estimation and saying so should not tar me as "shoving my head up BTS arse".

[ September 08, 2002, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Bastables ]

[TSword]

Sirocco, have to agree to a great extent !

Although we have to wait only a comparable short time for the new game (hopefully) and the scenarios show some of the new important features they still are a bit pale and probably not very convincing to new gamers.

Chance Encouter and Valley of trouble were really two of the best scenarios with diff. tactical possibilities and showing off a great part of the game.

I can life perfectly with it, but honestly, was utterly disapointed to see such a bad balanced an ahistorical (bad pick) of german and Russian force in Citadel.

Citadel stays for massive ari, trenches, bunkers, masses of Russ-infantry and tanks, mines and german combined arms (SS-Pz never did attack in a way as in Central Citadel for instance other then by accident). Something in the line of Valley of trouble would have been matched much better, instead one receives 14 tanks opposing part of a AT Bat. and no inf something which was the absolute exception. (Maybe the sizelimit for the Demo also played a part)

On the other side Yelnia and the Tutorial are quite nice but again very limited tactics wise (terrain) and thus suffering in replayability.

However once CMBB will out we will see a flood of scenarios never seen before i think, since CMBB opens completely new possibilities, because of the changes and enhancements in the engine and the vast timescale covered. Me for my part already have several ideas for some scenarios never seen before in CMBO (A big tear for no Russ.Cavalry and recon-Bikes).

Greets

Daniel

[MrSpkr]

I agree with Scipio and Phantom Whatsisname about the usefulness of CMBB to someone who has not been involved with CMBO -- it is not as good a tool for introducing them to the game as the CMBO demo was.

That being said, I understand BFC's position and their determination to use the demo to showcase the changes in the product. That is of course their right and I won't pretend to know their customer base better than they do.

One final thought - Andreas, you really are being a prig. Name calling and eye rolling at people expressing their opinion is stupid. You may not agree with it, but you are definitely not being all that constructive.

Steve

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Phantom Rocker:

You don't like the 5-minutes idea - I wonder if you are in sales biz. It often just works this way. All what Scipio has said is : the scenarios are not an eye catcher for somebody who is new to CM. I agree, and the experience with my workmates shows the same.

Well, I understand what you are saying. The thing to me is that there is little you can do about it. CM is a complex game. CMBB more so than CMBO. I get frustrated with some scenarios because of that, I have for example just emailed a fellow beta tester asking to break off a game we play because it is just not interesting me. I have heard from a few people that they looked at the CMBO demo and did not like it at first, then months later came back to it and bought it. I certainly did not understand how CMBO worked after playing the beta demo for five minutes, or even ten. I still pre-ordered the next day. The core audience will get this game. Some others will get this game too. Between these two groups, BTS has a market sufficient to tide them over nicely.

I think one thing people here fail to appreciate is how bloody difficult scenario design can be, and that time pressure does not make it easier. Ever wondered why some of the scenarios on the CMBO CD are less than stellar? Well, it is because you need a certain je ne sais quoi to make a really riotingly good CM scenario. Once you have that, you need a sufficient time too. Desertfox has put out three or four really great scenarios over the two years the game is out. My own favourite scenario (I really don't care very much if people don't like it), 'Into the East' took me six months of on- and off work to do. That was after I played CMBO for about a year.

I think some people here don't realise how spoilt they are by the great selection of CMBO custom-made scenarios, and they expect that same standard in the demo. That is difficult, if not impossible to achieve. They also seem to want to relive the child-eyed wonder that they had when they first came across CMBO, Beta or Gold. Well, like most things, the first time has a certain appeal to it, and can not be recaptured.

Do I think they are whingers? No. Do I think they are being a bit unrealistic in their expectations? Hell yes.

I get off my soapbox now.