Harv

Been a slow day, so....Here I Am!! Aaaahahahahahahahaha{snort}hahahahahaha. That's mildly humorous. Anyhoo... As I keep saying...anytime you simply want a "serious discussion" just drop me a line. We can save the internet for your business and my entertainment purposes that way. Wow. This really is just like Springer! After you've had your way with the mouth breathers on stage to the delight of the audience, you roll out an insightful and heartfelt monologue about the travails of life. Nicely done! You definitely should have locked it at that point though. Would have been the perfect amount of dramatic flair just before the credits rolled.

Actually my motive was purely to stir up ****. I mean, really, with an opening post like I made, there wasn't much chance of this thread being very productive from the outset. Not that I'm mounting a crusade on BFC and I'm going to spam the forums with derogatory crap, I just thought I'd poke around a little with a sharpened stick/toss a grenade and see what happened. Of course you showed up and started into an actual discussion, and being that I had already chosen the path I was going to take I was destined to be crushed. It was more interesting to be sure, and probably kept me from getting hit with the ban hammer (so far), but there was only ever going to be one outcome regardless. None of that means I still don't want to see a pile of changes made to CMT that will morph it into what I think will be a fun game of CM on my iPad, because I really really do, but I knew going in that this thread wasn't going to make that happen. I'm ok with being "discredited", as I have no credit to begin with. This is the danger of getting in a discussion (or argument) with me, as I simply do not care about the outcome. No matter how horribly I might "lose", my ego won't be left in ruins, I won't suffer from depression, my farm won't go bankrupt, my cat won't hate me, I won't suddenly have a revelation that I'm simply too stoopid to post on the interwebs and need to Stop Right Now!...I'll just move on to the next shiny object that catches my eye. It's the process of getting to that outcome that's the entertaining part for me, and that's why it becomes terribly frustrating for people like you that actually have a vested interest in the result. You know, had we been sitting down face to face, that's probably very close to how this would've played out. I'm not going to claim I have a different persona on the internet, but I definitely do things differently on the internet. I could have simply emailed you the list of issues, proposed improvements and changes I'd like to see too, but what's the fun in that? (*see below) You're both right and wrong. We probably really aren't very far apart at all, but my mindset is 100% on the second of the choices if you switch the word "new" to "changed" (or improved if you will). Seeing as I didn't convey that in a well reasoned discussion (boring), instead typing a number of paragraphs of "Springer" (I like that!) type garbage (not so boring) I can understand why you'd think it's number 1. And I'm still pretty sure you're not posting because you feel obligated to. Like I said before, you're posting here because you want to be posting here. Where else would you have the opportunity to speak of how your vision has proven to be successful? Where else would you get to reinforce the decisions you've made, in public? Where else would you get to crush an insufferable, illogical, Canuck who dared to challenge you and your corporate strategy? Where else would you have this much fun? There's a very good reason neither you or I took this to email (*see above), it's because this is The Internet, and we're enjoying some of what it has to offer. And in your case, this is good for business too. That wasn't too snarky (snarkful?) was it? I deleted most of the real meat before posting because I know you're not a fan of the lock. Besides, if he wants to act like a ****** then a wee snark should be not just condoned, but encouraged...no? And yes, I'm fully aware that particular knife cuts both ways.

Really Ray? Seriously? You just had to do that? I could actually hear the collective groan from people who just want this thread to die! The thing is, it's people like you that make life so fun and easy for people like me. Contrary to my last post I really don't want the thread to wither away, because I enjoy (sometimes heated) discussion, and I enjoy learning things. Your post, bless your little heart for taking the time to type it, has both kept the thread alive, and also let me know all about you and who you are. See, both entertaining and educational. So anyways, seeing as we're here again, how about we work on some constructive criticism for improving CMT. Nothing too deep to start, just the little things that could improve the experience, or might take away from the overall flow of the game, or have a jarring effect on immersion, or just make you go "hmmmm". I'll let you pick the topic and start. I'd recommend beginning with something from the top four, as Gameplay will probably take extra time to fully work through. UI AI Graphics Scenario Design Gameplay Hopefully Steve can drop a couple of hints as to what's in the update pipeline so we don't have a situation with a department of redundancy department situation.

So, way back on page one of the thread I said to myself... "Self, now that Steve himself has responded, if you get into multi-quoting and detailed line by line discussions he will grind you down and spit you out. You've seen it before, so don't you dare do it or you'll see it again." Apparently I don't even listen to me. Sadly (for me anyways), it really doesn't matter as I was at an insurmountable disadvantage no matter how I tried to play this out. Regardless of what conclusions I chose to draw from the release and subsequent development/support of CMT, unless you pulled a Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men and admitted whatever "guilt" (wrong word, but I like using it) I was hoping you'd suddenly blab out in a moment of weakness and pride, this was always going to be a pointless exercise. If you didn't make any of the decisions I accused you of, then obviously you're never going to say you did and I'm an asswipe. And if you did make any of the decisions I thought you had, then you're never going to be crazy enough to admit to anything and make company strategy public. And I'm an asswipe. But it was entertaining and educational (yes, I did learn and take away a few things, but I'll never admit that to you ). And as I truly am doing nothing more than wasting your time with it now (that and I see a couple of the regulars are starting to lose patience also, which won't make this very pleasant at all) I shall very ungracefully, whilst tripping over the soap box/pulpit/lectern, bow out. One last quote though... That is such convoluted logic that I'm hoping you're still sleep deprived. Or something.

Whoosh! Right over your head, eh Ray? I'll make it real simple like and paraphrase what I wrote above: Arguing with me (and Steve too I've seen) on the internet is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Eventually you'll realize the pig is enjoying it. And I like this mud. You can go sit down with MikeyD now.

Almost as frustrating as you deliberately being obtuse about my position, and continually diverting the discussion I bet. I've even seen a straw man lurking around, though he's very crafty about fully exposing himself. Oh come on, I gave you a beeeyoootiful gift with that link, and you quote a paragraph that applies pretty much universally to everyone? Disappointing. That is, without a doubt, the strangest (anti?)marketing scheme/plan/whatever it is, that I have ever heard of. Doesn't make it a bad thing apparently, but it's definitely....out there. {snicker} I want you to make a game, for the iPad, that you're capable of making. I've said this time and again. CMT isn't it, you could have, and can, do better, and we both know it. Again, I've stated time and time again that I know, or at least would be shocked if it weren't true, that the market is rewarding you for your efforts. Please quote where I stated anything you're alluding to me saying anything of the sort. Wrong again, I have not once stated anything to the effect that I don't wish you success. Ever. Please quote where I stated anything you're alluding to me saying anything of the sort.

Ahh MikeyD, you haven't changed one bit either. Sorry about the tardy response, I missed this earlier. I think you're (unsurprisingly) missing the point. I'm droning on ad nauseam because this is entertaining, and because it's the internet. And it would appear that Steve is enjoying himself too. I've no doubt that he also gets frustrated as hell with me, but the attraction of the soap box is quite difficult to resist, and a lively debate is never dull and can be a nice diversion from more mundane things. Think about it...at any time throughout the course of this discussion, even before the first reply had been posted, Steve could have dropped me an email (or picked up the phone) and said "For fecks sake Harv, stop busting my balls over this and wasting my time, and get your head out of your ass and just realize we did what we did because we wanted to do it this way. If you can't respect and live with that and stop trolling and pissing on my living room carpet, we'll just ban your ass and be done with it." Or, he could have just banned my ass on the spot and/or turfed my post. Or, he could have simply not responded to my post at all and let it die. But he didn't. Why? He most definitely didn't Need to defend his company's honour against one post by a disgruntled Canuck, he didn't Need to defend his position and decisions from one accusation of shenanigans, he didn't Need to allow me access to keep posting vile crap about CMx2 and CMT, he didn't Need to let this drag this out into a three page mess of a circular discussion with me trying to prove a negative* that never would have started had I simply been asked or smacked or ignored or banned and the thread would have withered on the vine. But he did. Why? I think it's because he's having fun. Now go sit down. *It's commonly believed to be essentially impossible, just so you know.

Easy Steve, I don't think I'm important enough yet to pop a vessel over. Even if I did hit a nerve. Here's something entirely different that I've been curious about... Why would the designer/publisher of a very successful series/family of wargames stealth release their newest product into their newest market? No sneak peeks, no advanced press review copies, no marketing campaign, no buildup to the big release, no announcements, no...anything. And release it on April 1 no less, so people familiar with the series wonder if it's even real? Anyhoo, I'm off to greener entertainment pastures now. Thanks for the laughs, it's been enjoyable as always.

Almost forgot...I'll give you this one for free... http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/23/the-ignorance-of-crowds-why-open-development-is-crap/ I know this is exactly how you view me and my position here. You're wrong of course, but I'm ok with that too.

Uh oh. Trees... The analogy police are coming to get you now. Bad analogy. Bad. Send it to its room immediately. Agreed. I will definitely be using that line in the future. The problem with this line of thinking, is that you keep referring to the PC versions of these games when you speak of comparisons. And again, this is because of your perspective and is not unexpected. The tablet market has nothing as a point of direct comparison such as this. If you release a niche wargame such as CM on the app store, there is nothing to compare it to. Nothing. It lives or dies based on what it is, because there just isn't anything else like it to measure against. And I believe you're misremembering my position from the CMx2 beta days. I never, at least as far as I can remember, said anything about CMx1 being the greatest thing ever. I believe my position was that CMx2 was simply not fun and had little of x1's smoothly flowing experience. And I still feel that way today. Are the old beta forum archives still floating around somewhere? It would be interesting to see if I really did mention CMx1 in that way. Anyhoo... My argument is, and always has been, that CMT essentially sucks. All by itself. And I believe that suckitude is a result of it being based on CMx2 instead of CMx1. The fact that CMx2 is doing better on the PC doesn't matter to me in the slightest, because I still maintain CMx2 could not work well, no matter how great it is, on an iPad. Basing it on CMx1 on the other hand, would most likely provide a "simpler" way of doing things with a touch UI without removing features, and possibly give more/better feedback during both the planning and playback phases. That is only to be expected in a successful business. The truism that "if you aren't growing, you're dying" is universal I think. If you've been successful in the PC market, you should be expanding. I think you've either missed my point all along, or you're deliberately trying to nudge the discussion in a different direction. What you do with future designs is not what I'm here about. A long CMx2 vs x1 debate is not why I posted this thread. Whether your business model is viable or not won't affect what I have for supper tonight. I'm here because I think that CMT is a poor game that has (had?) great potential to be more than it is. I'm here because I think you view the app stores as being beneath PC gaming, released a substandard and poorly supported product because of that perspective, and I wanted to call you on it. Do I really care about ever playing a truly fun/smooth/frustration free CM on a tablet, and my life will be incomplete if I don't? No, not at all. But that doesn't mean I'm going to let this go without some criticism either. It is the interwebsnet after all. And I believe this, in spite of everything you've stated or denied earlier, nicely sums up your actual position towards the app store. And I'm ok with it, I really am. If you just would've gone here earlier we could have saved a lot of typing, plus I wouldn't have felt the need to show you the error of your ways.

I don't want to get too bogged down in the he said/she said, because we might just end up seeing more trees than forest. Plus we're likely only ever going to agree to disagree for the most part I'm sure, unless one of us suddenly has an epiphany. As an aside, I really need ask to my old man about CM because he was quite a fan of BO and BB, and played more solitaire scenarios than anyone I know. He never once asked about changes, or updates, or bugs, or design features...he just played the game for a number of years and really enjoyed it. He did have CMT on his iPad, but the last time I was doing updates I noticed it was gone. Dunno why, and it could be for any number of reasons, but as he's one of the most solid casual CM players imaginable I'm kinda curious now. Anyhoo... I think you might be selling yourselves a bit short on what brought CM such acclaim. I'm sure there were countless external factors that influenced it's widespread success, and maybe if it had been released 2 years either way it would've been a flop at worst, or marginally successful at best. But I honestly don't think so. There was a niche in the PC (war)gaming world waiting to be filled by something that was fresh, looked appealing, had fluid gameplay, had a compelling (and educational even) cause/effect risk/reward smart tactics win system, engaged the player to make interesting decisions and then gave excellent feedback on the results of those decisions, and so on and so on... But the biggest things, in my mind, were that it needed to be accessible and everything had to make sense, from the interface to the combat results. And timing be damned, CM brought all of that to the PC. Sure it looks clunky and archaic now, and is missing a gazillion "features" from CMx2, but that doesn't mean it's anything less today than it was then...probably one of the easiest to understand and entertaining squad level tactical wargames that has been on the market. And as far as CMT being a commercial success, I would be astounded if it wasn't. Because there is currently a similar niche in the app store waiting to be filled, I would expect nothing less than to see people clicking and tapping the Buy button as fast as they could at the mere mention of Combat Mission being available on a tablet. But how many are actually playing it?

Mike & Steve, I see what you're saying about the whole experience thing, and understand why you're saying it, and from where you sit you're probably absolutely right. Unfortunately you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. You're constantly looking forward with CMx2, and see the future of CM with the evolution of that franchise. CMx1 is something that you rightfully look at as a fantastic foundation to base the series on, and it admirably served its purpose in that regard, but now you're moving on. On the PC at least. I would hazard a guess that neither of you have embraced the tablet* in quite the way that I and many others have over the last few years. And for those of us that have, the tablet gaming scene isn't much removed from the PC wargame market of the late 90's. There are great opportunities to bring something new, interesting, and different to the device and quite a few developers are now doing just that to fill the vacuum of quality, long life span games. And because CM (and wargaming in general) is, and probably always will be, a niche product there isn't so much pressure to try to compete with the mounds of crapware that flood the various app stores, all that's really needed is to provide a rich, full, intelligent "experience" and I truly believe the market will respond. Much as it did with CMx1 all those years ago. And I know you don't want to hear it, and you will definitely want to argue it, but CM:T brought very little, if anything, to the tablet in the way of that experience. And that's because of your perspective, towards both CMxX and also the app stores. Now, if you were trying to simply bring a lite companion app to the mobile market for people to screw around with a bit when they couldn't play the "proper" version of CMx2 on their PC at home, then you have fully succeeded and I've wasted my time with any of this because I totally misunderstood and misread your intentions towards the app stores. However, if you were actually intending to bring a full featured, compelling, made for an entirely new device wargame to the tablet...well, let's just say I don't think neutering CMx2 and testing the market that way is the way to do it. And that's because of my perspective. My advise (for what it's worth), if you're really serious about the app market, would be to go back to the drawing board, get outside the box, don't fixate on CMx2, find people who aren't PC-centric (or CM-centric for that matter) to consult with, do minimal testing on a PC if at all (this is critical to getting the UI right) and try to get the "experience" back, even if it's at the expense of technical or grognardish details. There is more than enough high speed low attention span stuff on the app stores, and more than a few people are tired of it already so try to get into that market. Not that I want to stroke your ego in the slightest Steve, but I've seen what you can do, and have done, and I'm thinking (hoping) you can pull it off again. It might take a shift in perspective though. *I'm using the word Tablet to ensure you don't think I'm talking about the Mobile market. I've interchanged the words before, but the Mobile (as in phone) market per se isn't what I want to refer to.

The thing of it is though, I actually kinda like CMx2 since it went to WWII Europe. It still seems a bit more like work than fun at times, but it isn't like I carry the heat of a thousand burning suns worth of hatred around for it. And this is just from playing the demos, I'm guessing some of the full game scenarios are a little better and familiarity with the controls would just improve the experience. However, that really doesn't much matter when it comes to the touchy feely version, which really needs help, IMO, no matter my disposition towards CMx2. The gameplay still appears to be nothing more than a neutered version of CMBN, not "its own game", and as I said above I really don't think CMBN could ever make the transition to the small screen anyways. I loaded this up again the other week to see if my exposure to the demos would change my impression, and if anything I have even more criticism towards CMT now, especially in the UI department. The gameplay is still more challenge than flow, with far too little information presented to the player IMO. Any time I need to think "how do I..." or "why did that..." when I'm playing a game, I consider that to be a problem with the design as it can ruin the immersion aspect that I'm looking for in my entertainment. And I don't necessarily want CMx1 per se on the iPad, what I would like to see is the CMx1 experience on the iPad. You know, the one that grabbed our imaginations in 1999 like no other, the one that made us clamour for Just One More Demo Scenario, the one that still appears to be going strong today, 14 years later. That may or may not be exactly CMx1 itself that I'm looking for, but I don't think CMT in its current form can ever have the "personality" of the earlier series, or even what I see in CMx2. It's just too clumsy, and...sterile. And as far as conspiracy theories go...well, I see what I see, I read what I read and I hear what I hear, and I come to conclusions based on that.

I pick (, sorta. I didn't like the game in comparison to CM in general, and wish you hadn't done it. Yet anyways. What I see in CM:T are far too many compromises, strange design decisions, poor UI and what appears to be a poor or misunderstood attitude towards mobile. I stated most of this in another thread(s?) so won't rehash it here, but this really strikes me as something that was popped into the casual mobile market to see how many fish would bite at the CM name. I remember asking this on a forum somewhere when it was released...if this game as it sits had been released under a different name by a different publisher, would the response and reviews have been the same? Academic exercise sure, but I'd speculate that it wouldn't have as well as it did (assuming it did/is selling well) without the element of name recognition that Combat Mission brings.

Nope, I don't think CMBN could ever work on an iPad. IMO there are too many fiddly bits for it to fit on a small screen with any sort of a usable UI. See my reply to Phil for more detail. And I still sadly have a computer, though the day is getting closer to finally being rid of it. There are some decent book keeping/accounting apps now, as well as backup and storage solutions which should make this iMac the last traditional computer I'll probably own.