Exit scenarios

[GreenAsJade]

Can someone please explain how scoring works for exit scenarios: what is the trade off that one is making in deciding to use a "must exit for points" unit in active duty....

Thanks.

GaJ.

[Sergei]

If you exit it, you will gain about the value of the unit in points (doubled?? I'm not sure!), if it is destroyed then you lose that amount of points (like, twice the normal casualties). Anyway, so that if two platoons were meant to exit but only one makes it without a scratch and another one is totally annihilated, then it is in balance.

[kingjames]

umm, really stupid question here, I guess I have never tried an exit scenario, or didn't realize I did. How do you know if it is a exit scenario, Is there a big blue sign? I know of one scenario that should of been, a few boys from texas. What a meat grinder

[Sergei]

One side of the map has a big "Exit Zone" sign stretched all across it.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Sergei:

One side of the map has a big "Exit Zone" sign stretched all across it.

IIRC you can toggle this off...

So make sure it is "on"

Good scenarios should mention it in the briefing.

Gruß

Joachim

[WWB]

Mission to exit, as well as whom to exit, should be mentioned in the briefing for sure.

In any case, here is how scoring works:

Player A is tasked with exiting unit U:

1) If unit U exits the map successfully, player a recieved its kill point value in Exit points.

2) If unit U fails to exit but survives, player A takes a penalty for not exiting the unit.

3) If unit U is destroyed, player A takes both the kill point penalty for the loss and the exit point penalty.

WWB

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by WWB:

Mission to exit, as well as whom to exit, should be mentioned in the briefing for sure.

In any case, here is how scoring works:

Player A is tasked with exiting unit U:

1) If unit U exits the map successfully, player a recieved its kill point value in Exit points.

2) If unit U fails to exit but survives, player A takes a penalty for not exiting the unit.

3) If unit U is destroyed, player A takes both the kill point penalty for the loss and the exit point penalty.

WWB

Thanks WWB. So if you are going to stop and fight with an exit-for-points unit, you sure better kill something with it to make it worth the points you lost by not getting off.

GaJ.

[Brent Pollock]

I'm considering ALWAYS listing one or more edges as EXIT FOR VP, even if no units need to exit; consider it a scenario design tool for increasing FOW.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Joachim:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sergei:

One side of the map has a big "Exit Zone" sign stretched all across it.

IIRC you can toggle this off...

So make sure it is "on"</font>

[junk2drive]

is there an easier way to determine units for exit points? hitting enter on each unit to see the window is a pain.

[Sergei]

You don't need to hit enter on each unit, you can open the unit panel and then use + and - cycle through all your units.

[Slappy]

A personal peeve of mine is exit scenarios with flags where all units are marked for exit. Now really, what am I supposed to do with that? Am I ordered to hold the ground or move on? I hate having to do the math on the point swing on leaving units at the flag or moving on. Designers, if you're going to have flags in an exit scenario, have some units designated to stay on map to hold them.

[Brent Pollock]

So far (twice), when I've had flags on the map, I've just been labelling major AFVs for exit to represent a breakout.

[Ted]

WWB said:

"2) If unit U fails to exit but survives, player A takes a penalty for not exiting the unit."

What kind of penalty are we talking about here?

[Redwolf]

Here are my old notes on scoring. They are from CMBO, but the only difference to CMBB and CMAK is that you don't have to calclate them so compilcated.

Exit scenarios are near the bottom.

%%

How is the victory level calculated? - flags, knockouts, exits, maths

The overall score is computed by points you get from possessing flags

and from point you get from knocking out enemy units.

Flags are controlled by one player or nobody (they are neutral) and

they have a certain value, 300 points for the big ones, 100 points for

the small ones.

Units have a certain value, usually it is what you know from the

scenario editor or Quickbattle units selection. The players get points

for eliminating or capturing opponent's units.

So there are three parties who can get points: - Player A (flags and

knockout points) - Player B (flags and knockout points) - neutral

(flags only)

Also calculate the absolute sum of all points, all flags and and all

knockout points combined.

Victory level for player A is then:

player_A_combatpoints + player_A_flagpoints

------------------------------------------------------------------ *

100.0 player_A_combatpoints + player_B_combatpoints +

sum_of_flagpoints

Combat Points notes:

- The size of the force the player started with does not matter. That

also means that it is irrelevant how many intact units are left at the

end of the game. Losses are counted as they are, by unit cost. No

divisor or weighting whatsoever to the original force size or to the

force still on the map is used.

- Captured units count 2 times as much (I noticed it may be more for

some cases, but didn't measure).

- Broken or routed status do not influence victory level. (They do not

secure flags, however).

- Units that exited the map count as intact. There are tons of reasons

not to withdraw units from the map - you need them to secure victory

flags, inflict more casualties and bodyguard other units so that the

opponents does not raise his kill count. Still, for the calculation of

the score it doesn't matter whether they exited or are still on the

map. What edge of the map the units exited does not matter. Things are

different for units that should exit for points, obviously. Note that

while exiting your units does not lower your victory level, it lowers

global morale. Captured unit must be exited from over your map edge to

count, any other edge frees them.

- Units like artillery spotters do not count the cost you payed to buy

them. It regular arty spotters count 30 points and it seems other

experience cost the same.

- Crews from knocked out vehicles, mortars etc. are costly when

killed, about 6 points for a regular crewmember, about 8 for veteran

(that is about what HQ men are worth). Since crews cannot defend

themself, withdraw them or hide them well. It may even pay to invest

other resources to rescue them. When you loose an onboard 81mm mortar,

you more than double the damage if you loose the 6 man-crew as well.

Not to speak of a captured crew, as always it counts twice.

- Units that can be partially destroyed count with the percentage of

casualties, approximately. When a squad that costs 18 points and

consists of 12 men looses 4 men, the opponent gets approximate 6

points. "Approximate" because it seems that the points are not

distributed evenly over the squad, the more costly smallarms seem to

be more valuable. Losing the LMG seems to be worse than using a rifle.

Not entirely sure and too lazy to measure, though.

- There is a bug in CMBO 1.12 that in split squads the second half

counts as knocked out. Recombine them before the game ends.

Calculation example

- Two flags, 300 + 100 points, Player A controls both - Player A has

237 combat points - Player B has 187 combat points

Player A: 237 + 400 / (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 77% Player B: 187 + 0

/ (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 23% 77/23 = 3.35 = major victory

Should you rush that flag?

In the previous example, should Player B rush the small flag and make

it neutral?

Player A: 237 + 300 / (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 65% Player B: 187 + 0

/ (187 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 23% 65/23 = 2.8 = still a major victory

But when rushing, the player usually takes casualties, lets say B

looses 270 points (1.5 plattons + 1 tank) and only inflicts 50 points

on the opponent (1/5 platoon) for making the small flag neutral:

Player A: 507 + 300 / (507 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 70% Player B: 237 + 0

/ (507 + 237 + 400) * 100 = 21% 70/21 = 3.3 = still major victory

OK, another example, that one was a bit extreme, you have to be a bit

stupid to sacrifice so many units for a small flag.

Lets say player A has inflicted 800 knockout points and sits on the

only 300. Player B didn't have his best day, inflicted 150 knockout

point and has no flags.

Victory level: Player A (800 + 300) / (800 + 300 + 150) = 88% Player B

has the other 12% = 7.33

You rush the flag, make it neutral, and lose 120 points for making the

300 points flag neutral. That should be a plus, shouldn't it?

Player A 920 / (920 + 300 + 150) = 67%

So far so good. But since the flag is neutral, you don't have the

other 33%.

Player B 150 / (920 + 300 + 150) = 10% = 6.7

As you see, the rush doesn't really make a difference, lost is lost,

and by making the flag neutral you make knockout points more

important, which is bad if you had more losses.

Mixed observations

The more casualties there are in the game, the less important do the

victory flags become. For a meeting engagements with 2x 1000 points

there are usually 300 or 400 points in flags. If both players together

loose 1000 points (half their force), the flag (if only one 300 flag)

only makes for 23% of the points that are distributed at the end of

the game. If both players together loose 200 points (1/10th of the

forces), the flag makes 60% of distributed points.

If you have no chance of controlling the flags anymore and you can

trade units 1:1, do it.

If on the other hand you sit on the flags, try to avoid combat with

1:1 trades, it lowers your victory level.

Light vehicles and kamikaze recon

If you do aggressive recon with vehicles bought for that purpose, it

may be more expensive than you think.

One M3A1, one Jeep MG and one M20 utility car cost 95 points. They

have 9 men of crew. If one third of the men gets away, one third gets

incapacitated and one third gets captured, that means 45 points for

the opponent from the crews alone.

Not having total victory after enemy surrender

People frequently complain like this: "the opponents surrendered and I

got less than 100% victory points and hence not a total victory. If

the battle would continue, I would control all flags and totally

eliminate or even capture the opponent's force. I want the game to

continue or at least give me 100% victory when the opponents

surrenders."

If the situation is like this:

- There is one flag worth 300 pt. It does not matter whether you

control it or not yet, because after the opponent surrenders you do in

any case.

- You had losses of 600 points.

- Your opponents had 750 points losses, has moved 150 points over the

map edge (units also do that by themself when they route) and still

has units worth 100 points on the map.

You say you will knockout or capture these remaining 100 point units

and that will give you 100% victory since you have all flags and the

opponents no units.

Wrong. You had heavy losses and that prevents you from scoring total

victory. After your losses happened, there is no way to make it good.

What happens?

If he surrenders, you get all the flags. So far so good, 300 points

for you. All enemy units that are still on the map go into captivity.

Good, capturing the units worth 100 points brings you 200 victory

points. You already made 750 knockout points in normal combat. The

enemy units that already escaped over the map edge are gone, you don't

get kill or capture points for them. And by surrendering the opponent

does not give away the points he already gained in combat against you.

You already had lost units worth 600 points and you don't get them

back no matter what, even if the opponent surrenders.

End result, you get 300 + 750 + 200 points. Total points are these

1250 points of yours (includes flag), plus the 600 points the

opponents already gained. Hence:

1250 ---- = 68% victory 1850

Ups. Now what would happen if the fight continued? You would probably

have killed more of the enemy units, more units would escape over the

map edge and some would be captured. Let's say from the 100 points

your opponents are 33 killed, 34 escaped and 33 captured and you have

additional losses of 25 points. You gain 33 + 2x33 = 99 points instead

of 200 that are the surrender result. And your opponent has 625

instead of 600. Hence the victory level at the end would be:

300 + 750 + 99 -------------------- = 65% victory 300 + 750 + 99 + 625

No matter what you do, at the very best you can do as good as the

surrender result. So the surrender is never to the disadvantage of the

victor, as people often think.

Or to say it in other words: the damage that denied you total victory

has already been done before the opponents surrendered. If you loose

units in the order of magnitude that the flag value is, your points

are gone and stay gone. You can make up for your losses by inflicting

new losses, but if the enemy surrenders its losses are at guaranteed

to be at the maximum, you could never do better if the game continued.

Other examples

If you would control both flags, and no side inflicted any losses, you

plain and simply gain 100:0 victory.

So, now imagine the same situation, you sit on all 400 points worth of

flags, but you and your opponent traded two tanks, so that each party

gets 120 knockout points. Then you win only 81:19, which is only a

major, not total, victory. Do not trade units 1:1 if you sit on the

flags.

Exact percentages for victory levels

For you reference:

1:1.25 55% minor victory 1:1.75 64% tactical victory 1:2.5 71% major

victory 1:5 83% total victory

Testing yourself

You want to know how much a unit is worth in knockout points?

Build a scenario, with only one small flag.

Add the unit you want to test to one force and add some flamethrower

infantry teams to the same force. Give the other force something that

is dangerous and invulnerable, i.e. buttoned tanks with two MGs each

(obviously something else when you want to test for the value of a

Pueppchen...).

Place the extra flamethrowers somewhere in woods, make sure they stay

away from the flag, and don't ever get seem by the enemy. The only

purpose of these flamethrowers is to prevent auto-surrender.

Place the unit you want to test between the enemy tanks so that it is

captured or killed. If you want to test its exit value, place it

somewhere else so that it can't be killed and can exit.

You start the scenario in hotseat. Play until the unit, and only the

unit you want to test for is KOed. If anybody else got harmed,

restart. For exit situation, exit it, obviously.

Once the situation is ripe, you do a cease-fire (not surrender). The

flag should be neutral (it must be!). If it is neutral, the displayed

percentages for the two forces don't add up to 100%, because neutral

has a flag. This eliminates the unknown from the equotation. Since you

know that neutral has exactly 100 victory points from the flag and the

superior force has no losses, you know that all other points are the

victory points for the one dead (or exited) unit and you can calculate

it from the displayed percentage. If the percentage shows Axis 20% and

Allied 0%, you know that the sum of all points must be 125, of which

100 are for the flag, hence the killed unit was worth 25 points.

I'm happy to do the math for you if you run the scenario and give me

the points. (Really. Mail me or post).

Exit scenarios

Exit scenarios, complicated stuff.

Units that are eligible for exit points have a certain value with

regards for exit, in addition to the value they bring when k.o.'ed or

captured like any other unit.

The amount of exit points is not constant, for sharpshooters and

trucks it is cost * 2.7, for flamethrower teams and guns it is cost *

2.3.

I didn't test for more units so far, but I guess it depends on speed

and/or transport class. The slower stuff shouldn't ruin the exiting

player when he can't bring them over. Respectively it is usually

driven over the edge in transport which is not such a big deal. This

is obviously a balancing mechanism to make it more fair, I only wonder

why BTS didn't tell us about it, it is only useful if you know it.

Anyway..., logic here is (for sharpshooter and truck): - exited like

it should: player gets (cost * 2.7) points - not exited like it

should: opponent gets (cost * 2.7) points - killed: opponent gets

(cost * (2.7 + 1.0)) points - captured: opponent gets (cost * (2.7 +

2.0)) points

For flamethrower teams and trucks insert 2.3 instead of 2.7.

No further complications may arrive from units with crews. After

knockout of the weapon the crew does not have "should exit for points"

status. That would be really nasty for 81mm mortars which have 26

points value in the weapon, but 36 in the crew

It seems to be that such scenarios are impossible to play (not to

speak of scenario designing) without this knowledge. You have to make

straight calculations which unit you will engage in a battle with 1:1

chances to protect other units. Maybe newer manual editions have more

infos? Otherwise I will start testing all units and build some nice

exit scenarios.

Global Morale, flag possession

I have no intention to do a similar analysis for other aspects of the

game, namely global morale and the details of flag possession.

In my opinion, understanding of this scoring system is very important,

especially for scenario designers, and then especially for exit

scenarios, or partly-exit scenarios.

Exact knowledge of morale issues would lead to too much game-mechanics

oriented play, and for flags - just defend them properly and you'll be

fine.

Scenario designer consulting

I am happy to help scenario designers with getting the results they

want from their scenarios. I won't tell them how many flags and where

to place them. Instead I will give examples like "if force A

eliminates 30% or the opponent and B eliminates 25% of A and you have

these and these flags, then the score will be ".

In these calculations I will have units that have different knockout

from purchase points already taken into account, and I will give

enough examples to form a useful opinion - the designer's opinion, not

mine, that is.

Unfortunately, many scenario designers seem to think knowledge about

victory points is for gamey bastards only and refuse to even think

about it :-/

However, the few times people asked me I had good results and people

thought it was helpful. Right-tuning flags and exit status will

prevent game result the designer didn't intend, it increases the

designer's ability to reward those players who play well in the sense

he had in mind. This especially applies to scenarios with exit points,

scenarios with only some units for exit points, scenario where one

side has many vehicles and the other was grunts'n'ary.

Of course, I maintain confidentiality when requested in case the

scenario isn't yet published or is to be used in tournaments.

[General Bolt]

I played the Mortain CMBO exit scenario once - long ago. I kick the Allied butts. They were below the 25% morale level and surrendered. I received zero points for exiting. Most of my men were 1 or 2 turns from the edge. I had even left HT and truck crews hold the flags. It pissed me off royally, not getting the chance to depart.

I now avoid exit scenarios.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Slappy:

A personal peeve of mine is exit scenarios with flags where all units are marked for exit. Now really, what am I supposed to do with that? Am I ordered to hold the ground or move on? I hate having to do the math on the point swing on leaving units at the flag or moving on. Designers, if you're going to have flags in an exit scenario, have some units designated to stay on map to hold them.

Omitting flags entirely is usually not possible when designing scenarios. Normally, you need the flags as a designer in order to manipulate the AI. And you can use them as point equalisers (you can use the "bonus" function to the same effect tho). If only one side can exit for points, and it's a fighting withdrawal, meaning the defender is to withdraw across his own (rear) mapedge, there is no incitament for the exiting force to stop and fight at all unless there are either preset bonuspoints or flags enough to make sure victory for his opponent if he simply buggers out. Flags then have the additional value of steering the AI right. If flagvalue roughly equals or slightly excels exitpoint value, then the (withdrawing) defender is forced to kill off a number of (attacking) enemies before retiring if he is to win. And he needs to do it with minimum casualties, since every one of his men is worth roughly twice as much as every one of his enemies. Thats the basic logic of all fighting withdrawal scenarios.

Even in breakthrough-type scenarios, when the enemy is between you and your exit edge, the designer still need flags to manipulate the AI to react, and not just sit tight and shoot at whatever he happends to see. Otherwise, a human player need only to open a small hole in the AI line, and pour through, all remaining AI units will do nothing. If a flag is lost, the AI will plug the hole by counterattacks.

However the player should not be bothered with these maths, the design should solve it all by explicitly stating your mission. So if it says you should exit, then exit. If it says hold ground, hold the ground. If it says you need to kill some people first and then exit, then do it. If you do what it says, succeed, and still lose, its a misdesign. If you domething you're not supposed to do and still win, it is also a misdesign.

Fighting withdrawal/delay action setups normally has a curve, in terms of points. If flags/bonuses and exitvalues equal eachother you (if defending) start at zero. As the enemy advances - he will be very superior, or your orders would have been to stop and defend proper - you will normally pick him off at no great cost to yourself. Your pointcurve rises. As he closes in, he will normally be able to start extracting a price, and as he need only take down half the amount he loses, he will rapidly gain on you. Your point curve flattens out, taking and losing about the same amounts. As your units are engaged, extraction becomes difficult. With rising casualties, your point curve drops. You have stayed too long, and will lose. This is the typical curve of any fighting withdrawal/delaying action setup. Your key decision then becomes when to quit and extract. Its a more complex decision than the "capture the flag" attack-defence scenario. You cannot normally see on the map exactly what the status (in points) is, nor do you have any explicit evidence of progress such as flags changing hands. Enemy casualtyrates will always be unclear. Decisions have to be made on meager basis and there is no aid. My experience is that not all players will enjoy such setups. But some get really hooked.

Of course, the whole effect will be lost entirely if the player doesn't get it, because of insufficient briefing.

Hope that helps some in understanding presence of flags in exit-scenario designs.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[CombinedArms]

IMHO, it's generally a good idea in scenario design to include some "not for exit" units even in heavily exit-oriented scenarios.

This gives you some units you can really fight with and they can also hold flags. In general, these "not for exit units" can be thought of as the rearguard holding the gates open for the escapers, or alternatively as the spearhead troops whose job it is to open a hole to be exploited by followup troops (the "for exit" units). To have some such forces that are not for exit seems to me to be tactically more realistic (such units generally are designated both in rearguard actions and in breakouts)--and at the same time it improves game play. So, as a scenario designer, why not do it?

Most of the problematic exit battles I've seen lack not-for-exit troops (witness ROW's "Bump in the NIght" from the UK side) and most of the good ones do have such units.

[Dandelion]

This gives you some units you can really fight with and they can also hold flags.

If the objective is to exit, why would you need such forces and why would you want to pursuit the holding of flags? I don't get it.

To have some such forces that are not for exit seems to me to be tactically more realistic (such units generally are designated both in rearguard actions and in breakouts)--and at the same time it improves game play. So, as a scenario designer, why not do it?

Whereras some tactical situations would warrant a holding force, others would simply not. Basically, if it is the battle of the holding force you wish to illustrate with your design, you don't really need to include a exitforce simply to bus it over the map and take no part. The exit force then just bogs down the game, its a little like taking a snapshot of a friend, who however appears only as a dot in the middle of the photo.

Several designers try to illustrate the situation of a commander who is needed with his (entire) force somewhere else, and a knowing enemy who wants to obstruct his getting there. Its a fairly common situation in WWII. As far as I have experienced, the CM engine lends itself well to such designs. I find the Exit condition the most versatile and flexible design instrument available in the CM engine. Newer and more interesting designs will make the most of it.

I don't really understand the problem I guess. But I am interested since I am involved with some of the designteams. Why don't designs with exclusively exit troops work, in your opinion?

Cheerio

Dandelion

[simovitch]

I recently posted a scenario to the depot "HSG B Fighting Withdrawal" that has both exit conditions and flags. I also included both exit-eligible and ineligible units in the OOB, and delineated who is to exit and how many points the units were "worth" in the briefing. shameless plug? yes. Reviews would be most welcome.

Im not sure if this topic is scenario-specific, but on reading through it, it occured to me that I might be confusing the player by listing the value of the exit-eligible troops and not clarifying that it is "kill value". Say I listed 400 points (not mentioning that being kill value only). If they die trying to hold the line, and do not exit, the net point deficit becomes -800.

But if you are a true "point counter" you would also want to try and estimate the number of enemy that were killed off in the process of holding the flag. So should you hold the 300 point flag with 100 pts of exit eligible troops, and try to kill off another 100 point of germans? perhaps. but all plans go to hell when the first shot is fired, or something like that. So it can be a tough decision for the CM commander what to do... tough decisions=successful simulation. right? Try Sergie's "Partisan Waltz" for CMBB.

I think flags can and should be included in an exit scenario, if not only for proper function of the AI but to provide a tactical decision for the player.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by simovitch:

So it can be a tough decision for the CM commander what to do... tough decisions=successful simulation. right? Try Sergie's "Partisan Waltz" for CMBB.

:eek: Wow, someone plugs my scenario!

And I didn't pay Simovitch a dime!!!

...yet.

One idea for a realistic exit scenario is a Soviet breakthrough where infantry and heavy tanks force a hole and hold it, while T-34's push through the gap to exploit. Maybe the idea has been used, but I haven't found such scenarios.

[Mad Russian]

Originally posted by Slappy:

A personal peeve of mine is exit scenarios with flags where all units are marked for exit. Now really, what am I supposed to do with that? Am I ordered to hold the ground or move on? I hate having to do the math on the point swing on leaving units at the flag or moving on. Designers, if you're going to have flags in an exit scenario, have some units designated to stay on map to hold them.

It doesn't always work that way.

The AI may well need flags to work anywhere near right. In my one and only exit sceanrio I gave the exiting side points equal to the flags so that the flags had no real value and the units could exit without any detrement to the game. If you try to stay and get extra points for the flags you will lose. I used dynamic flags so I go 3 for the price of one and that flag was only worth a 100 points.

Exit scenarios are by far the hardest to do. There are two parts to each exit scenario. Fight and Run. Often times a designer doesn't give you time to do both. So you end up doing neither very well and losing the battle.

My scenario is currently in playtest at The Proving Grounds so I don't know how well recieved my longer scenario with no flag values has worked. I should know in awhile though. If you want to try it out for yourself it is HSG EW Aus die Traum. shameless...shameless...

Panther Commander

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by simovitch:

I recently posted a scenario to the depot "HSG B Fighting Withdrawal" that has both exit conditions and flags. I also included both exit-eligible and ineligible units in the OOB, and delineated who is to exit and how many points the units were "worth" in the briefing. shameless plug? yes. Reviews would be most welcome.

This is the scenario I was thinking of most closely when I praised the inclusion of some "not for exit" units. This scenario does a really good job with that--but I forgot the name so I couldn't mention it. Nice work, simovitch!

Now I'm going to go review it at the Depot!

[Edit: Done!]

[ August 17, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Panther Commander:

The AI may well need flags to work anywhere near right.

Hm, that must have been broken in between.

I remember that my first CM editor experiments were to take the CMBO tutorial, delete flags, do exit zone for the AI behind me, then send 100 AI tanks from the other side and try to stop them.

Worked well, and that included towed guns on transport and whatnot.

[Alkiviadis]

"Ambush T34" at The Scenario Depot is a rather unique exit zone scenario: a Red Army armored raid, good for AI play with the human taking The Reds. One gets kill points (they are hitting a German mech column) then must exit SOME of one's T 34s off the NE corner of the map, which is in the Red's rear. I'd like to see more like this one, very entertaining.