German squads poorly modelled?

[PEB14]

Hi,

(I post this in CMRT subforum but it basically applies to all WW2 games)

In a previous post I complained about Panzergrenadier squads that I didn't like. Playing again and again with the German, I've discovered that, in fact, I don't like playing with German infantry at all, for the very same reason: their 2-teams squads.

And thinking about it, I really believe that the game fails to model late WW2 German squads. Let me explain myself.

 

From a very broad point of view, one can divide squads into three main categories.

1) The Allied, big squads, that are divided into three teams. They are by far the more flexible.

2) The Russian and Italian squads, that cannot be split or can with potential penalties. Minimal flexibility.

3) The small squads, that are divided in only two teams: mainly the German squads.

There is a very realistic rationale behind the two first types, related to doctrines and the quality of NCOs. By example, Italian NCOs were notoriously bad (as far as I could read), and Russian ones were delegated relatively low initiative. On the opposite, in 1944 the US NCO were well-trained and empowered with more responsibilities.

What about the Germans? As far as I know, they have the reputation to have had the best NCOs during WW2; additionally, more initiative was delegated to lower ranks officiers and NCOs in the Wehrmacht than in any other WW2 armies. While this may not be as true at the end of WW2 than it was at the beginning, one should nevertheless have at least as much flexibility with German squads than with the Western Allies ones.

But in Combat Mission it is not the case. Send German scouts and have them killed, you get stuck with big 6-men squads that are no more flexible at all, and which additionally  are perfect preys for handgrenades, US light mortars or soviet smgs.

From my (limited) experience, it makes the German squads less flexible in attacking that any other (save for the Italians, obviously) army. In defense, it doesn't matter, but when attacking you basically either scout with full teams, or assume the risk of losing squad flexibility forever - which is completely unrealistic.

The solution to what I consider to be an issue is very simple:

Let's file a suit for BFC to split the German squads into 3 teams !!!

(In fact, I believe it would be better and even more realistic not to consider scouts as teams, but that would mean adding a kind of fourth team to all nations and hence heavily modify the game engine).

[chuckdyke]

The solution would be simple, change combine to uncombine as an option. So you would always be able to form 6 men into two teams. 

[PEB14]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

The solution would be simple, change combine to uncombine as an option. So you would always be able to form 6 men into two teams. 

That would be great indeed.

[Anthony P.]

I think I'll reiterate what I commented in the Panzergrenadier thread: you're obsessing a bit about some Combat Mission meta revolving around 2 man scout teams.

When you're dealing with 8 man squads, it really doesn't matter all that much whether or not you can split off two guys without affecting the rest of the squad: you've already got a small squad, the very smallest you'll find in a WW2 game. Splitting it up into even smaller teams very likely isn't going to work out well. Just try playing as German paratroopers. They have 10 man squads in three fireteams: a casualty in the A team is managable, but the moment you suffer one single casualty in either of the two three man teams, you're gonna have to merge that with another team anyway.

[BFCElvis]

5 hours ago, PEB14 said:

That would be great indeed.

It has been years since I've seen the discussion and I am definitely not an expert but, if memory serves, the team concept for each nationality is based on docterine, not arbitrarily or based on the historical quality a a nationalities NCOs. And that is where yopur suit will die in pre-trial discovery.

[PEB14]

5 hours ago, Anthony P. said:

I think I'll reiterate what I commented in the Panzergrenadier thread: you're obsessing a bit about some Combat Mission meta revolving around 2 man scout teams.

Agreed. The 2-man scout team, AFAIK, is typically US doctrine. A 1-man scout team may do the job as well !

 

5 hours ago, Anthony P. said:

When you're dealing with 8 man squads, it really doesn't matter all that much whether or not you can split off two guys without affecting the rest of the squad: you've already got a small squad, the very smallest you'll find in a WW2 game. Splitting it up into even smaller teams very likely isn't going to work out well. Just try playing as German paratroopers. They have 10 man squads in three fireteams: a casualty in the A team is managable, but the moment you suffer one single casualty in either of the two three man teams, you're gonna have to merge that with another team anyway.

And I still don't get your point.

1) The late war German squad revolves around 2 LMG. A LMG team is basically a 2-man team (unsurprisingly, that's what you get from BFC WW2 games when you purchase a LMG team). You don't need more for fire support/fire base. The other 4 men are up to everything else: AT duties, scouting, assault, canon fodder, anything you want.

2) Honestly, I still don't get your point about scouting with 4-men teams. You just need 1 Russian guy with a smg to decimate a full team. It happens in every CMRT game, especially in forest or semi-forest terrain… So what's the point to have your precious LMG team decimated in basic scouting duties? Is that the way you look for the enemy?

[PEB14]

2 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

It has been years since I've seen the discussion and I am definitely not an expert

Neither am I to be fair, and I failed to find sources regarding German squad doctrine. If anybody can provide some, I'd be grateful…

 

2 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

the team concept for each nationality is based on docterine, not arbitrarily or based on the historical quality a a nationalities NCOs.

I'm pretty sure it is, as BFC has seemingly performed thourough and respectful researches regarding the TOE topic.

But!

I'm completely willing to accept the fact that German late WW2 doctrine's standard team is made of 4 men around a LMG. But my point is, what does German doctrine says about scouting at squad level? And what about tank hunting? Were these tasks supposed to be performed by standard half squads still revolving around a LMG, or were a couple of scouts of Panzerfaust bearers supposed to be detached from their basic teams to form temporary (and unofficial according to doctrine) teams? While I'm not an expert, I'm pretty sure that the latter is more likely, which would translate into a 3rd team in CM mechanics… even though the doctrine speaks of only two!

 

 

[Anthony P.]

22 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

1) The late war German squad revolves around 2 LMG. A LMG team is basically a 2-man team (unsurprisingly, that's what you get from BFC WW2 games when you purchase a LMG team). You don't need more for fire support/fire base. The other 4 men are up to everything else: AT duties, scouting, assault, canon fodder, anything you want.

I'm not sure that you're not applying German early war "the squad supports the LMG" philosophy to that had likely changed by the end of the war. 10 men with one LMG is a different thing from just 8 men with two LMGs and an assortment of personal automatic weapons. The Wehrmacht wouldn't have spent money on self loading rifles, SMGs and assault rifles for landsers just meant to lug around ammo belts for the LMGs, and I really don't think they would've cut the number of ammo belt donkeys carrying riflemen in more than half if that had still been their purpose by 1943, '44 or '45.

But my main point will receive the shorter paragraph: the squad is still part of a platoon, and that's the smallest unit which should ever go off on its own mission.

 

Quote

2) Honestly, I still don't get your point about scouting with 4-men teams. You just need 1 Russian guy with a smg to decimate a full team. It happens in every CMRT game, especially in forest or semi-forest terrain… So what's the point to have your precious LMG team decimated in basic scouting duties? Is that the way you look for the enemy?

Assuming we're talking about 8-9 man squads with one LMG in each fireteam (there's really quite a lot of different variations across different German infantry units, and I'm by no means an expert), use the "Assault team" split. That way the LMGs will stay in the Baker team, while the Able team gets all the SMGs. Aside from that, I wouldn't put neither a 4 man nor a 2 man scout team in a position where I'd think it reasonably likely that they'd get shot at. In that case I'd rather have the platoon form a line and start shooting, especially if I'd have to move through a forest.

[PEB14]

9 minutes ago, Anthony P. said:

Assuming we're talking about 8-9 man squads with one LMG in each fireteam (there's really quite a lot of different variations across different German infantry units, and I'm by no means an expert), use the "Assault team" split. That way the LMGs will stay in the Baker team, while the Able team gets all the SMGs. Aside from that, I wouldn't put neither a 4 man nor a 2 man scout team in a position where I'd think it reasonably likely that they'd get shot at. In that case I'd rather have the platoon form a line and start shooting, especially if I'd have to move through a forest.

I'm discovering that we're not talking about the same German squads! I've yet to play with very late war German squads heavy in smgs. I'm talking about the 1944 Panzergrenadier and infantry squads, which are still only using the good old Kar. 98 with 2 LMG and a single Schmeisser.

I get your point regarding the firing line (scouting by fire). I'm in the midst of Mr. X's Partisan Land campaign. Big forest/swamp maps with short LOS (excellent terrain for Soviet smg). Unfortunately, with a scout by fire tactical approach, I'd be out of ammo before reaching the middle of the map…

[Anthony P.]

The same holds true though: the focus had shifted from "everyone supports the LMG" by the mid war period, hence why many German units fielded smaller squads with more automatic firepower (in this case by doubling the LMGs, though not exchanging the rifles for anything new).

I've not gotten around to playing that campaign yet but sure, circumstances change. If you're performing a sweep to clear large chunks of terrain, then that's obviously quite different. It's probably not intended to be easy.

[Bulletpoint]

I think it's an issue caused by the little details of real-world tactics not being fully captured by the CM system.

In reality, even if a squad would doctrinally split into only two sections, each section could still send out one or two guys to walk point. Or otherwise advance carefully as the situation dictated. In CM, there's no such sub-unit flexibility. You get two groups of stooges that all go running off towards the next movement marker. No matter if you have them run or walk or "hunt" they all stay in one big lump. In the game, this is a big disadvantage.

Additionally, a real-world squad would probably often react faster to contact, at least if they were expecting it from a certain location. The German squads were based on bounding overwatch with each maneuver element having one MG. That only works if that MG can react quickly and forcefully. In CM, it often takes long for a unit to finally return fire, and even then, fire is quite anemic and immediately stops when target is no longer visible.

Lastly, I believe MGs in general were much more suppressive in reality than in the game, which affects all factions, but especially weakens any doctrine based around them.

[ASL Veteran]

I think there are some German squad types that do have three teams - just going from memory though.  However, one point of order here - the Italian 'Squads' are actually half squads so in fact the Italian squads already start split.  A WW1 squad was around 20 men, and the Italian army still retained the WW1 style infantry squad.

The main 'real' issue for splitting squads into teams would be the leadership in the squad as you would typically split squads into teams based upon who was available to lead each team and what was expected of a team leader.  There are also game limitations as to how you can split things as a lot of stuff is baked into the game and can't really be altered that much even if the alterations would be beneficial.  

[Artkin]

36 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

I think there are some German squad types that do have three teams - just going from memory though.  However, one point of order here - the Italian 'Squads' are actually half squads so in fact the Italian squads already start split.  A WW1 squad was around 20 men, and the Italian army still retained the WW1 style infantry squad.

The main 'real' issue for splitting squads into teams would be the leadership in the squad as you would typically split squads into teams based upon who was available to lead each team and what was expected of a team leader.  There are also game limitations as to how you can split things as a lot of stuff is baked into the game and can't really be altered that much even if the alterations would be beneficial.  

Yeah it should be motorized german squads. Additionally I think I remember their organization being different a few patches back. I was specifically looking for that larger org. 

[PEB14]

8 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think it's an issue caused by the little details of real-world tactics not being fully captured by the CM system.

In reality, even if a squad would doctrinally split into only two sections, each section could still send out one or two guys to walk point. Or otherwise advance carefully as the situation dictated. In CM, there's no such sub-unit flexibility. You get two groups of stooges that all go running off towards the next movement marker. No matter if you have them run or walk or "hunt" they all stay in one big lump. In the game, this is a big disadvantage.

Absolutely.

And that's why I'm convinced that stocking to purely theoretical doctrine at the squad level is not as good as it may seems: it lowers realism. While it has nearly no impact on the US and British squads (as well as on the 3-teams German squads mentioned in another post), it has a lot on the German smallest squads and make them more brittle than they should be.

[PEB14]

7 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

I think there are some German squad types that do have three teams - just going from memory though.

As @Anthony P. rightfully pointed out, there are so many German squads configurations in terms of weaponry and number of men…

As I already stated, I'm only concerned with the 2-LMG, 2-teams, 8-men German squads. No issue with the others whatsoever.

 

7 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

However, one point of order here - the Italian 'Squads' are actually half squads so in fact the Italian squads already start split.  A WW1 squad was around 20 men, and the Italian army still retained the WW1 style infantry squad.

I didn't know that, thank you for pointing it out. I have played the Italians only once and it was more than one year ago…

 

7 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

The main 'real' issue for splitting squads into teams would be the leadership in the squad as you would typically split squads into teams based upon who was available to lead each team and what was expected of a team leader.

Sure, but its not as critical as it may seem. By example, the US rifle squad is divided into three teams, whereas officially there is only one squad leader and one assistant squad leader. Who is supposed to lead the third team? The German squad also has one Gruppenführer and one Stellvertreter Gruppenführer: it's completely similar to the US one. Same for British rifle section.

One can asume that any "specialist" teams (LMG, Tank Hunter, Scouts) has its own "natural" (if not official) leader. AFAIK it's already modelled in the game: generally, when you lose official leaders (squad leader and assistant), the leadership modifier of the squad decreases, reflecting smartly the loss of leadership.

 

7 hours ago, ASL Veteran said:

There are also game limitations as to how you can split things as a lot of stuff is baked into the game and can't really be altered that much even if the alterations would be beneficial.  

Absolutely, but adding a third team to German 8-men team completely fits into the game mechanics.

The possibility to uncombine squads proposed by @chuckdyke, however, probably doesn't. Unfortunately.

 

[Chibot Mk IX]

On 6/14/2024 at 7:26 PM, ASL Veteran said:

I think there are some German squad types that do have three teams - just going from memory though.  However, one point of order here - the Italian 'Squads' are actually half squads so in fact the Italian squads already start split.  A WW1 squad was around 20 men, and the Italian army still retained the WW1 style infantry squad.

The main 'real' issue for splitting squads into teams would be the leadership in the squad as you would typically split squads into teams based upon who was available to lead each team and what was expected of a team leader.  There are also game limitations as to how you can split things as a lot of stuff is baked into the game and can't really be altered that much even if the alterations would be beneficial.  

Motorized Panzergrenadier

they have two type of squad structure , one with panzerschreck one without.

[Erwin]

It's always puzzled me that CM forces are so limited in splitting.  The small Ukrainian 7 man squads in CMBS can be split into three(!) teams which gives them much more flexibility and (I thought) mirrors more realistically how squads should be able to be split.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Today's infantry receives more extensive training in working in smaller tactical elements.

Having appropriate leadership for each element is extremely important and that has to be known and planned in advance for a split team to be able to do anything useful.

Much tougher to do that effectively in WWII.

[PEB14]

28 minutes ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Today's infantry receives more extensive training in working in smaller tactical elements.

Having appropriate leadership for each element is extremely important and that has to be known and planned in advance for a split team to be able to do anything useful.

Agreed. But it's basically the core of infantry training, beside learning how to use weapons…

 

28 minutes ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Much tougher to do that effectively in WWII.

Why so? Ukrainian army is a mix of volunteers/semi-conscription army not that different (from its composition point of view) from large conscription armies of WW2. Considering the high complexity of today warfare (complex weapon systems, highly 3D warfare, high lethality and precision of weapons, etc.) I think it's tougher to have well trained volunteers or conscripts today than it was in WW2.

German and US soldiers and NCO were reputedly well trained, and talking about Panzergrenadier it's even more true.

I probably won't argue for Italians or Soviet infantry, though.

[Thewood1]

I would hope that splitting and manipulating squads is limited if the AI can't perform the same function.

Edited June 16 by Thewood1

[Artkin]

Due to how the engine works splitting your guys up in an area larger than 8x8m is necessary. It's definitely something that could have been done back in the day. 

That being said we will never see this feature implemented

[Vergeltungswaffe]

On 6/16/2024 at 11:36 AM, PEB14 said:

Why so? Ukrainian army is a mix of volunteers/semi-conscription army not that different (from its composition point of view) from large conscription armies of WW2. Considering the high complexity of today warfare (complex weapon systems, highly 3D warfare, high lethality and precision of weapons, etc.) I think it's tougher to have well trained volunteers or conscripts today than it was in WW2.

German and US soldiers and NCO were reputedly well trained, and talking about Panzergrenadier it's even more true.

I probably won't argue for Italians or Soviet infantry, though.

It's who is going to lead that team.

In WWII, it was one thing to say, "You, take 2 men and set up an OP 50 yards to the east. Send a runner over if you see anything" and saying "You, take 2 men, conduct an extensive recon in that general direction, defend yourself, take any objective you can, and make a whole lot of decisions on your own", or something to that effect.

Independent operation of a fire team isn't going to be able to do a lot of complicated things without a leader that is well versed in everything they need to do.

[PEB14]

24 minutes ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

In WWII, it was one thing to say, "You, take 2 men and set up an OP 50 yards to the east. Send a runner over if you see anything" and saying "You, take 2 men, conduct an extensive recon in that general direction, defend yourself, take any objective you can, and make a whole lot of decisions on your own", or something to that effect.

Independent operation of a fire team isn't going to be able to do a lot of complicated things without a leader that is well versed in everything they need to do.

Agreed, even though the type of actions you depict is more the business of a squad than of a team.

But the teams in CM sense cover not only the fire teams you're depicting, but also the specialist ones (scouts, tank hunters, even runners if you play C2 to the core) whose use should not alterate the fire team structure like it practically does. In that sense I feel that it would be more realistic to provide the German with three teams, by example two fire teams and one two-riflemen, scout teams. This way the Germans would retain more flexibility than with two straight fireteams.

[PEB14]

By the way, I focused a lot on the German Panzergrenadier, but the Pionier squad is even more… bizarre:

You get a huge MG team and a big manoeuver element. 6 men in a team, that's a lot of people on a small action square, the ideal target! I think only the HMG German teams are as big.

Just try to send a scout team with such a Pionier squad… You get a 4-men scout team!

[Vergeltungswaffe]

36 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

Agreed, even though the type of actions you depict is more the business of a squad than of a team.

But the teams in CM sense cover not only the fire teams you're depicting, but also the specialist ones (scouts, tank hunters, even runners if you play C2 to the core) whose use should not alterate the fire team structure like it practically does. In that sense I feel that it would be more realistic to provide the German with three teams, by example two fire teams and one two-riflemen, scout teams. This way the Germans would retain more flexibility than with two straight fireteams.

Absolutely.

Was basically just saying that we often take teams and have them do things that would take an awful lot of initiative for a WWII infantryman.