Raging Al Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 I’m playing my way through the 1979 version of US Lions of Cantigny campaign, which I have to say is probably my favourite campaign across the whole CM series, but it’s just occurred to me that the US forces don’t have a dedicated recon vehicle available in this time period. Looking at the encyclopaedia in the CW manual, I can see that the M3 Bradley is available for the 1982 time frame, but nothing for 1979. I assume that this is a reflection of the US TOE of the era, but did the US seriously have no dedicated recon vehicles at this time and, if so, why did they make this decision? Of the other major belligerents of the era I think I have identified the following AFV’s that were dedicated to this task: Soviets PT-76 and BRM-1 BAOR Scimitar/Scorpion Bundeswehr Luchs From playing the campaign missions it would seem that the US deploy a combination of M113’s and M150’s as Scouts. Is that the recon element? Grateful if anyone can share some insights here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halmbarte Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 The US did do development work on the M114 as a dedicated scouting vehicle but dropped the program. Going from memory the decision to drop the M114 was because the M114 wasn't that much better than the M113 that was already in inventory. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Al Posted May 8 Author Share Posted May 8 Thanks H. I just looked up the M114 as I’d never heard of it, but i see what you mean about being little better than the M113. The same article mentions the M551 Sheridan, but sounds like they didn’t fair well in Vietnam and was being phased out by 1979, and I can’t see that it was ever deployed with US forces in Europe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halmbarte Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 Yah, in theory the M551 would have been a decent scout vehicle, in practice a light tank that can be penned by 12.7mm HMG ammo and has the finicky ATGM/cannon means the US probably made the right choice of using the M113. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 It cannot be over-stressed the amount of respect the cold war Pentagon had for the Russian PT-76. They spent years, producing design-after-design, in a effort to field a light tank that outdid the PT-76. They still haven't done it. Heck, in hindsight they probably just could'a keep the old WWII Sheridan. I would have served the purpose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 Was the PT-76 even particularly good? Sounds a bit like the "oh no, the Russkies have a wonder weapon" like with the MiG-25? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 It was just an amphibious vehicle with a decent sized HE chucker. Useful, but far from a wonder weapon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halmbarte Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 4 hours ago, Anthony P. said: Was the PT-76 even particularly good? Sounds a bit like the "oh no, the Russkies have a wonder weapon" like with the MiG-25? 3 man crew and easily penned by .50 cal, but the 76mm HEAT & HE is no joke. The BMP generally makes a better scout vehicle. H 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 My understanding is that the PT-76 was an amphibious close support weapon for recon units. The key being amphibious to cross water barriers that tanks couldn't do easily. It wasn't built to be shot at. It was built to get HE support to recon units that would have to cross water barriers. Soviet planning was all about crossing rivers quickly as possible. Then hold a bridgehead for a short time until bridging equipment allowed tanks to cross. The PT-76 could do that. And it could be airlifted. But when field commanders see it, they think they can use like a tank. Thats why you saw so many wrecked PT-76s in Vietnam and the MidEast. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) I can verify when I arrived on post in West Germany in late 1977 the 2nd Arm Cav regiment was still operating Sheridans. The were replaced late 1978 iirc by M-60s. P.S. Mike do you mean the WWII Chaffee? Edited May 9 by Sequoia 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) As we are expanding back to 1976 for BOAR, I can say that the Sheridan is definitely on the wish list of new vehicles. And our wish list is looking good. Oh and thanks for the kind words on Lions ‘79…. Edited May 15 by The_Capt 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurian52 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 5 hours ago, The_Capt said: As we are expanding back to 1976 for BOAR, I can say that the Sheridan is definitely on the wish list of new vehicles. And our wish list is looking good. Oh and thanks for the kind words on Lions ‘79…. That is encouraging to hear. Getting the Sheridan in would do much to scratch what remains of my "WiC, but realistic" itch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffelmann Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 5 hours ago, The_Capt said: And our wish list is looking good. Is there anything for the red side on the wish list for the BOAR module? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 On 5/9/2024 at 4:18 PM, Sequoia said: I can verify when I arrived on post in West Germany in late 1977 the 2nd Arm Cav regiment was still operating Sheridans. The were replaced late 1978 iirc by M-60s. P.S. Mike do you mean the WWII Chaffee? And in the 82d we held on to them even longer. Jeeps and helicopters were used for recon (my service predates HMMVs), and M551s though were more thought of as "tank" support. In spite of them being armored recon vehicles, in the 82d there was a tank company. We'd have to wait a few days or more for some actual tanks (from some other unit) once we secured an airfield safe enough for C-5s to land. Dave 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Okay, I asked this when the game first came out, but any chance of seeing the Gamma Goat someday? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) The only M114's I ever saw in Europe where at Grafenwoehr training base, where they were used as moving target vehicles for training on the LAW. p.s. As mentioned before this was post 1977. Edited May 15 by Sequoia 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 31 minutes ago, Sequoia said: The only M114's I ever saw in Europe where at Grafenwoehr training base, where they were used as moving target vehicles for training on the LAW. p.s. As mentioned before this was post 1977. We have the Lynx, which if one squints could pass for an M114. But these will be in the Canadian TOEs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSarge Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sequoia said: Okay, I asked this when the game first came out, but any chance of seeing the Gamma Goat someday? Me too! Me too! It could almost climb anything, not fast and squirrelly to drive especially on twisty roads, but a lot of fun. Edited May 15 by OldSarge 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Who cares about Sheridans anyway? I wanna see CM: Lobster Wars! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultradave Posted Sunday at 10:53 PM Share Posted Sunday at 10:53 PM On 5/15/2024 at 6:20 PM, OldSarge said: Me too! Me too! It could almost climb anything, not fast and squirrelly to drive especially on twisty roads, but a lot of fun. If a future expansion has the 82 Abn Division, then it should. We had lots of them during the period covered by CW, and we airdropped them. Someone once told us you couldn't get them stuck. We proved them wrong. Everyone loves a challenge, eh? Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSarge Posted Monday at 12:15 AM Share Posted Monday at 12:15 AM (edited) 1 hour ago, Ultradave said: Someone once told us you couldn't get them stuck. We proved them wrong. Everyone loves a challenge, eh? Dave Heh, heh! I'd really hate to see the type of terrain that the boys got a goat stuck in, but I know that could happen. The easiest way to break somefink is to tell the guys: 'this is unbreakable'. Some goat love for those of us who remember! (I feel sorry for the fella without hearing PPE!) Edited Monday at 12:21 AM by OldSarge 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted Tuesday at 04:15 PM Share Posted Tuesday at 04:15 PM If I was those f*****s in the video, I would really weld on a roll bar for the things they're trying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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