Is CMBS dead?

[rogue189]

I have been a player of the CM series since the Beyond Overload days and have bought just about every title since.  I have enjoyed the modern games and I am very disappointed to hear the the expansion for BS has been shelved.  Why?  As I understand it, Battlefront did not want people thinking they were making a profit off of a war even though the game was designed before the war in Ukraine.  I understand this point, but I don't remember any complaints about the release of Shock Force when there was an active war in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The game wasn't pulled when a real war in Syria happened.  What makes the Ukraine situation so special?  Is the issue simply that the setting is in Ukraine?  Could BS and the expansion simply be retitled Combat Mission Europe or something with a new setting but using the exact same maps and equipment?

Edited January 15 by rogue189
My last comment was off topic.

[Simcoe]

It's because Ukraine is losing and the war may be over before the end of 2024. It won't look good releasing a game about the war in Ukraine after they surrender or give up a large chunk of their territory.

I'm not pro Russia just calling it like I see it. Bring on the hate mail.

[Blazing 88's]

It's because russia is losing and the war may not be over before the end of 2024. It won't look good to release a game about the war in Ukraine as the war will still be going on.... 

I  am pro-Ukrainian just calling it like I see it.

 

I hope I am wrong and this is all over soon and in a positive way for the Ukrainian people

Edited January 15 by Blazing 88's

[chuckdyke]

BS is just not worth playing it is a hypothetical game and biased US No 1 Russia No 2 Ukraine No3 and no expansion pack is planned to rectify this. Kudos for the WW2 games it is where BF shines and we really enjoy playing it. FI is the next game I will buy. 

Edited January 15 by chuckdyke

[ALBY]

I still play CMBS in PBEM and there are some cool aspects of modern warfare you can model in CMBS. 
 

but I agree with not updating right now. 
 

More to the point, CMBS should probably be replaced with a commercial version of CM pro with Petruvians and Denovians and with  n the weapons set spanning CMCW thru CMSF2 & CMBS.  

[Ultradave]

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

BS is just not worth playing it is a hypothetical game and biased US No 1 Russia No 2 Ukraine No3 and no expansion pack is planned to rectify this. Kudos for the WW2 games it is where BF shines and we really enjoy playing it. FI is the next game I will buy. 

Get the whole FI package when you do. There's a LOT of variety in forces and equipment in, especially in the DLCs, and some great scenarios all around. It's a very different experience from the hedgerows and the steppes!

Dave

[Armorgunner]

8 hours ago, Blazing 88's said:

It's because russia is losing and the war may not be over before the end of 2024. It won't look good to release a game about the war in Ukraine as the war will still be going on.... 

I  am pro-Ukrainian just calling it like I see it.

 

I hope I am wrong and this is all over soon and in a positive way for the Ukrainian people

If the DLC would be about killing Ukrainians, I would understand. But if the campaign is about killing Russian VDV, release it!

[rogue189]

I think we are missing the point of wargaming.  What would happen if Battlefront modeled the Israeli army in a fictional battle against Syria?  Does that now make the game a referendum on Israel?  Does it imply a stance by the game company?  I say no.  Playing Combat Mission is akin to playing a miniatures game in real life.  You have your armies and you fight it out.  It doesn't matter what happens in real life.  We play video games because we want to play war without the dangers of war.  Battling it out in a virtual Ukraine has nothing to do with what is happening in real life.  Has anyone looked at Command Modern Operations?  Some of the scenarios for that game are almost real time.  I just don't see a connection for developing a game and support for Ukraine or Russia.

Edited January 15 by rogue189
Grammar

[Anthony P.]

The issue is that CMBS revolves around a war in Ukraine.

You might say "but hey, there's a war in Syria, and that didn't stop CMSF!" However, Shock Force (1) and all DLCs were released prior to the Syrian civil war, and though the civil war bears no resemblence to the fictional war depicted in SF, it should be noted that no additional DLCs have been released since that war started (whether that is a coincidence or not, I can't say).

Add to this the fact that the war in Ukraine is more "sensitive" to the Western audience. It's not yet another war in a totalitarian dictatorship like the Syrian civil war is, but a very recent, very close to home invasion of a European democracy by a neighbouring dictatorship, something we haven't seen the like of since WW2. That obviously creates different "public relations issues" so to speak when it comes to potentially being regarded as profiting of it by publishing DLCs for CMBS while the war is still underway.

 

Hopefully the shelved DLC might be rerouted to Shock Force to add Russia as a faction there, but as for CMBS... I don't think it's fair to say that it's dead, but it's certainly in a coma.

[JoMac]

Yeah, I already figured BF would put the brakes on any further development of CMBS or any similar/future conflicts...Between precision Drone/Arty strikes as major players on the Modern Battlefield, modelling this in a wargame is something BF is probably not willing to take on. 

Edited January 15 by JoMac

[Bagpipe]

17 minutes ago, Anthony P. said:

It's not yet another war in a totalitarian dictatorship like the Syrian civil war is

Except Putin is a totalitarian dictator. Not that those are limited to just Syria and Russia mind you...

[rogue189]

Lets face it, CMSF was the Iraq War.  Yes it was set in a hypothetical invasion of Syria, and the campaigns/scenarios did not represent the actual battles taking place.  However, the reality is that the OOB, unconventional forces, etc. were all taken from the realities being experienced in Iraq.  Basically, it was the Iraq War but not in Iraq.  If there is sensitivity about Ukraine, why do the same thing?  Just change the setting to Poland, the Baltics, or whatever eastern part of Europe you want?  You end up with the same result with a fictional Russian invasion of (fill in the blank).  This way we get to keep our modern forces and grow the core game.

[Anthony P.]

2 hours ago, Bagpipe said:

Except Putin is a totalitarian dictator. Not that those are limited to just Syria and Russia mind you...

But the war is in and against Ukraine, a democracy. That's where much of the problem lies.

[Raskol]

I think they should use the lessons learned from the current war and make a Combat Mission 2030 with up to date equipment and a large number of factions like Chinese, French and other different countries. 

Edited January 15 by Raskol

[sttp]

Do we even know which current titles actually sell the best? Review numbers, the order the titles were released on Steam, tournament signups, etc., offer only a limited glimpse of the current situation, but apparently foregoing the release of the CMBS module is not going to be as financially damaging to BF as some seem to think.

I've been on these forums for years (though I only play the WW2 titles, so not the Black Sea or Shock Force forums), and from what I've gathered it seems the WW2 titles -- Normandy, especially -- are still the best sellers, no? But I've always had the impression that Black Sea is not that far behind it.

Which means that if Black Sea is "dead" (and I don't think it actually is, really) then it couldn't bode well for the rest of CM2.

Well past time for CM3!!

[Anthony P.]

CMBS is "dead" (or rather, in a coma) because it's obviously a potential PR disaster to market new DLCs for it.

That is clearly not the same as being dead due to selling poorly.

[MikeyD]

I can think of multiple products and companies that fell afoul of 'current events'. Its not something that you can anticipate or plan for. The first thing that comes to mind is movie posters for the original Spiderman film that prominently featured the twin towers in NYC. Oops. The movie release got delayed while they labored to scrub the twin towers out of the film. There was also a time travel series at the time whose opening montage included a plane crashing into the White House. That series got abruptly yanked and never came back.

[rogue189]

To clarify I mean "dead" as in, no longer being developed.  I have no idea how well it has sold in relation to the other titles.  MikeyD, you are correct and I agree with you.  If the setting is the problem, then change the setting.  To me it seems like a simple solution, but I don't design video games.  Other than the fact that the game is advertised as a hypothetical conflict between NATO and Russia set in Ukraine there is nothing that relates to Ukraine other than the briefings.  Just change the text to another country and the problem is solved.

In terms of new DLC being a PR disaster, I disagree.  Look at the "No Russian" mission in Call of Duty.  It made international headlines as being extremely offensive, and censored in many nations.  However, that didn't stop the game from becoming a blockbuster.  I apologize to Battlefront, but I don't see new DLC in CMBS rising to that level of media interest.

[The Steppenwulf]

54 minutes ago, rogue189 said:

Look at the "No Russian" mission in Call of Duty.  It made international headlines as being extremely offensive, and censored in many nations.  However, that didn't stop the game from becoming a blockbuster

Would it be different if Russian paramilitaries had in reality run riot through an airport lounge killing hundreds of citizens and security guards? An event of such unimaginable violence that it would be on the scale of Oct 7th attacks, or 9/11. 

Regardless it needs to be considered that this is not only the reputational risk of a single company at stake, Slitherine and Steam share the risk of potential reputational damage and this in turn can affect future agreements re collaboration. In fact reps from those companies may have even expressed their own views on promoting and selling the planned module. A number of factors could have influenced the decision to pull it, these included.

P.S. This thread should have been titled "How cold is CMBS gonna' get?" 

Edited January 15 by The Steppenwulf

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

In fact reps from those companies may have even expressed their own views

They may have done, but Steve already said they are all on the same page.  And I agree with them.

[rogue189]

Steppenwulf, yes "No Russian" does not depict and actual terrorist attack, but it does put the player in the shoes of someone conducting a terrorist attack.  So, in a way, it is no different than an actual terrorist attack or mass shooting.  Take a look at the new Flight Simulator from Microsoft.  One of the complaints that has cropped up is that people are flying planes into buildings 9/11 style.  It hasn't stopped the development of the game or halted sales.  But I digress and I don't want to get my own thread too badly off topic.

Vacillator, you are correct.  Battlefront has made up their minds and there is nothing I can do to change their decision.  I really like the modern warfare titles and there are so few on the market that are strategy games, unless they are RTS or FPS and tend to more arcade like.  Plus, the AAA game developers have decided that everything has to be a "cinematic experience" for the player.  As I have gotten older, I have slowed down and don't enjoy RTS/FPS games as much as I did when I was younger.  CM is the perfect balance of pacing and realism.  I just hope that Battlefront can keep the modern warfare genre alive without having to sacrifice their products simply because world events have changed.  Thanks, everyone!

[The Steppenwulf]

25 minutes ago, rogue189 said:

So, in a way, it is no different than an actual terrorist attack or mass shooting. 

In what way?

Look it would be different in a fundamental way! The closer the representation to an actual violent event, a game or a drama purports to replay, the higher the personal and/or societal sensitivity to it will be. This is increased by time proximity and relationship to the victims and the experience. It's an accepted characteristic of PTSD that there are differences in sensitivity which can trigger flashbacks - by way of a direct psychological demonstration of this effect. 

If you cannot see this you must be in a tiny group of individuals that is unable to perceive the difference, or are unwilling to accept that there is a difference.

[rogue189]

I get the difference, but I can also separate fantasy from reality.  Playing Call of Duty doesn't make you a violent person.  Playing CM doesn't mean you support the war in Ukraine or condone how the war is being fought.

Steppwulf, I'm not trying to needle you and I apologize if I have been too argumentative or have not been as precise as I intend.  My ultimate point this: Battlefront developed a game before the world events changed.  As far as I am concerned, they have nothing to apologize for or be ashamed. If they want to slow or stop development of CMBS as a means of being sensitive to current events, I can respect that.  But I am also a customer and I want more of this particular product. They have already invested time, finances, and resources into development. Why thow out the baby with the bath water?  Is it possible to change the setting and create a win-win situation?

Edited January 16 by rogue189

[Brille]

3 hours ago, rogue189 said:

I get the difference, but I can also separate fantasy from reality.  Playing Call of Duty doesn't make you a violent person.  Playing CM doesn't mean you support the war in Ukraine or condone how the war is being fought.

Steppwulf, I'm not trying to needle you and I apologize if I have been too argumentative or have not been as precise as I intend.  My ultimate point this: Battlefront developed a game before the world events changed.  As far as I am concerned, they have nothing to apologize for or be ashamed. If they want to slow or stop development of CMBS as a means of being sensitive to current events, I can respect that.  But I am also a customer and I want more of this particular product. They have already invested time, finances, and resources into development. Why thow out the baby with the bath water?  Is it possible to change the setting and create a win-win situation?

Totally agree to this !

[The_Capt]

8 hours ago, rogue189 said:

I get the difference, but I can also separate fantasy from reality.  Playing Call of Duty doesn't make you a violent person.  Playing CM doesn't mean you support the war in Ukraine or condone how the war is being fought.

Steppwulf, I'm not trying to needle you and I apologize if I have been too argumentative or have not been as precise as I intend.  My ultimate point this: Battlefront developed a game before the world events changed.  As far as I am concerned, they have nothing to apologize for or be ashamed. If they want to slow or stop development of CMBS as a means of being sensitive to current events, I can respect that.  But I am also a customer and I want more of this particular product. They have already invested time, finances, and resources into development. Why thow out the baby with the bath water?  Is it possible to change the setting and create a win-win situation?

You also are accepting zero actual risk in all this.  This entire issue comes down to risk/opportunity for BFC.  While for you it is entertainment and convenience.  Those are entirely different frameworks.

The opportunity for BFC is modest - DLCs do not make as much money as main title releases so ROI is limited.  They also have multiple lines of product, so they can offset any losses by shifting focus to offset lost investment in development.  The risk for BFC, in this environment, is significant.  Beyond the fact that releasing a wargame set in an active war zone (there are actual game maps that overlap RL) while people are dying, is going to be considered “bad taste” by most and “a social crime” by some - companies have been cancelled for less.  The risk of significant loss due to perceived exploitation of human suffering is high.

This is existential for BFC.  It is their livelihood.  Are you willing to personally pay for the financial damage this move could do to the company?  Are you willing to put your job on the line for a CMBS DLC?  Because that is what you would be asking BFC to do.  BFCs job is not to make you happy.  Their job is to sustain the business that makes you happy.  Right now risking everything on a single DLC does not make business sense.