How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[acrashb]

6 hours ago, Machor said:

I was amused by the BTR that tried to drive over a BMD

That's what the presenter said as well, but it could have been the driver being incapacitated, throttle stuck, steering damaged, and so on.  Or the they were moving at speed and the BMD blew up and stopped ,the BTR's brakes not being good enough, and so on.  Or, as mooted, sheer panic.

[DMS]

3 hours ago, Haiduk said:

This is usual soldiers of regular units. Many have opinion, that most cruel are Chechens, Dagestans, Osetins. But no. Most cruel are minor nations of Russia - Buriats, Tyva and Russians from depressive regions themselves, from deep asshole villages.  Exactly units from Buriatia, Far East, and SE Syberia mostly occupied NW outskirts of Kyiv. Locals now tell the origins of their fury and hate is that they came here and seen that "oppressed by nationalists" live much better than in their "raised-up Russia". That even our villages have paved roads and lightening, that our houses clear, inhabitants have hausehold appliances, electronic, much better clothes.

One woman told, Russian soldier, which lived in their house, said " I will come piss to yard". She cried to him "Damn! For why you crap my yard if here is a toilet in the house!" Then Russian in angry hit the table with a fist and became swear that "you damned "khokhols" fattening here! We will burn this all to the f...k!" This is just orc horde. New barbarians.  

But on other hand Russian FSB had "shot-out lists", composed by local 5th column. Main targets - rtired ATO soldiers, Maidan activists, civil volunteers. Many of them missed on occupied territories. Russian also has been kidnapping local town mayors and village heads, forcing them to collaboration. In many cases they liberated them later, but for example all family of village head of Motyzhyn, Kyiv oblast icluding hук relatives, were executed - 6 victims total. 

This is your explanation for irrationality of shooting civilian people just before leaving? (Bodies are not burried, even not stiffened) Mad soldiers who kill people because they envy to their wealth. 

I am not sure, should I write that this is BS and Russia is generally more wealthy than Ukraine. That I was in Ukraine, that I know statistics about their salaries and their median salary is lower (average salary also lower, obviously). Or all that is odd because all gone emotional. Well, I did it.

[danfrodo]

As was mentioned somewhere above, need to get objective investigators into the atrocity areas ASAP.  The more these crimes can be shown in an orderly, evidentiary light, the better.  Makes it harder for folks to be in denial.  Of course some folks don't really live in an evidence based reality, they live in a propaganda reality (in Russia, in USA, in most places), but that can't be helped. 

So I wonder what's going on down south today?  I wonder if this will be like Kyiv, where every day we wondered "will there be a new russian offensive?" and every day it didn't occur, until we finally realized that the calculations on this forum were correct -- there was no ability to have that offensive.

[Gnaeus]

Any reaction here to this interview with Wesley Clark?

 

[akd]

LDPR conscripts show of their unique fighting skills:

 

[Haiduk]

2 hours ago, DesertFox said:

 

 

The moment of falling

Pilot captured

[akd]

Here is the paywalled Times.co.uk story:

Probably the mentioned dacha basement (warning: graphic):

https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1510610020622340101

Evidence is being gathered:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas

Edited April 3, 2022 by akd

[Kraft]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

I am not sure, should I write that this is BS and Russia is generally more wealthy than Ukraine. That I was in Ukraine, that I know statistics about their salaries and their median salary is lower (average salary also lower, obviously). Or all that is odd because all gone emotional. Well, I did it.

"Generally" is a generous word here as salary in Russia, even just based on district, varies wildly as it does in most countries: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1100972/average-monthly-income-per-capita-russia-by-region/

If Kyiv suburbs and out of the city dacha owners earn more or less than the average far eastern village is debatable but besides the point because we have photographic evidence of washing mashines, alcohol bottles, stacks of cash, valuables like rings, ipads,.. and everything else that can be carried and holds value found on rus soldiers or their vehicles. 

A sure sign of professionalism no doubt.

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kraft

[asurob]

2 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

This comment...

This is what the PC and Woke Brigade of the West cannot grasp about Russia

...has absolutely nothing to do with Ukrainians being angry about Russian war crimes!

I KNOW exactly what it represents, and it has no place in this thread and that's why I'm calling it for what it is.

That's whether you, or anyone else likes it or not... it is trolling! 

Now I joined this thread after the first week of the war to read others views about the conflict, not to read about this sort of nonsense. Quite frankly, there's nothing that I am going to learn from this sort of socio-political diatribe, but there is a lot that I can learn about the military conflict. But these particular comments have no place here and are irrelevant to the topic. 

Simply put.  You're wrong.  These acts of murder, rape and torture aren't acts of individual soldiers and given the abundance of them happening you can bet that the upper ranks are encouraging it.  Terror as a weapon of war.   As more and more areas get liberated we will see even more examples of it.  This is the Russian army doing what they were told to do from top to bottom.  (In case you thought the mobile crematoriums were there for their troops)  The problem with the Russian policy is they have begun to retreat before they could clean up their war crimes and now the world is seeing the truth of what Russian liberation means.  So are a group of observers on a game forum dehumanizing them by calling the orcs etc...sure.   You don't have to like it but it's not trolling and if it offends you this much.  Don't read about the comments.  Remember none of these things would be happening if the Russian Army didn't invade.  SO yea...Russians are evil.  They are killing civilians to sow terror among the populace.  Maybe we should call each russian soldier what he is...a murder and a rapist.  Make you feel better?

[DesertFox]

18 hours ago, Vet 0369 said:

Or possibly collaborators?

There is no doubt who did it. Vid of the killing at the same spot:

Graphic!

https://twitter.com/2022Kharkiv/status/1510598364265603074?s=20&t=bzfqk-bHE4IpeG4ufeTXZQ

[TheVulture]

2 minutes ago, asurob said:

  You don't have to like it but it's not trolling and if it offends you this much.  

Are you being deliberately dumb here?  The reason you are correctly being accused of trolling isn't what you say about the Russians.  It's because you have decided that it's the "PC and woke" brigade that are the entire problem in the west. 

[DMS]

3 minutes ago, Kraft said:

If Kyiv suburbs and out of the city dacha owners earn more or less than the average far eastern village is debatable but besides the point because we have photographic evidence of washing mashines, alcohol bottles, stacks of cash, valuables like rings, ipads,.. and everything else that can be carried and holds value found on rus soldiers or their vehicles. 

I just know for sure that contractor's salary is 200k rubbles, 2500 USD. (Privates, NCOs) It's low for the West, but very much in Russia and Ukraine. So that soldiers get 10 times more money per month than average Ukraine worker. Ok, may be just 5 times more than average Kyiv citizen. 

[billbindc]

4 minutes ago, TheVulture said:

Are you being deliberately dumb here?  The reason you are correctly being accused of trolling isn't what you say about the Russians.  It's because you have decided that it's the "PC and woke" brigade that are the entire problem in the west. 

To add to the absurdity, the "woke brigade" in DC is beating down the doors of the administration to give more aid to Ukraine. Please stop the trolling, you just look dumb.

[acrashb]

55 minutes ago, akd said:

LDPR conscripts show of their unique fighting skills

Long-burst full auto not even on the shoulder?  Reminds me of the early part (~2004-2007) of the insurgency in Iraq, after the invasion phase.  Untrained or barely trained for sure.

[danfrodo]

if you use "woke and PC" you are just another brainwashed tool.  This is just a shiny object meant to ignite culture wars.  We have much bigger problems.  Like in the USA we are considered now a failing democracy.  And it's not because of some "woke & PC" horses-t.  It's because of a very different brand of propaganda.

So how about we all call a truce on this foolishness and get back to Ukraine?  Do we not (nearly) all here have a shared interest in seeing the new Hitler defeated?  What I care about is that the west (and the world) stays united and that Ukraine can emerge 'victorious', although that's an odd word for having a big part of one's country laid to ruin.

[Kraft]

3 minutes ago, DMS said:

I just know for sure that contractor's salary is 200k rubbles, 2500 USD. (Privates, NCOs) It's low for the West, but very much in Russia and Ukraine. So that soldiers get 10 times more money per month than average Ukraine worker. Ok, may be just 5 times more than average Kyiv citizen. 

I am not sure how you get the 2500 USD for Privates

following this, 2020

a private doesnt end up with 2500k, maybe I am misunderstanding document.

[asurob]

6 minutes ago, danfrodo said:

if you use "woke and PC" you are just another brainwashed tool.  This is just a shiny object meant to ignite culture wars.  We have much bigger problems.  Like in the USA we are considered now a failing democracy.  And it's not because of some "woke & PC" horses-t.  It's because of a very different brand of propaganda.

So how about we all call a truce on this foolishness and get back to Ukraine?  Do we not (nearly) all here have a shared interest in seeing the new Hitler defeated?  What I care about is that the west (and the world) stays united and that Ukraine can emerge 'victorious', although that's an odd word for having a big part of one's country laid to ruin.

This.  I have been reading this thread from the beginning one of the silent types I don't post much.  But watching the spin cycle get moving has frustrated me.  There is a war.  Once side is clearly targeting civilians.  To be called "woke" because we'd like to see the other side receive even more support is beyond annoying.  Back to my silent reading corner.

[Panserjeger]

Here is a Twitter-thread on Russian squad and platoon organisation:

 

[DMS]

2 minutes ago, Kraft said:

a private doesnt end up with 2500k, maybe I am misunderstanding document.

With "war bonus", of course.

[Kraft]

4 minutes ago, DMS said:

With "war bonus", of course.

So we are comparing average standard of living with a momentary, 1 month (to this point) bonus?

Seems kind of flawed in logic unless privates get millions for compensation of warcrime troubles they will not buy much from 1, 2, or say 6 month war campaign bonus compared to years of differences in pay.

So what is normal pay in USD?

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Kraft

[Battlefront.com]

3 hours ago, DesertFox said:

 

 

THIS IS FANTASTIC!

Even though Russia will protect its criminals by reflex, being able to identify criminals by name still matters.  Hopefully we can see something like happened with Serbia handing over some of the most senior criminals as part of a deal to normalize relations with the country.  It will be quite helpful to have a list of murders they need to give up before letting them back into the world economy.

Steve

[kraze]

2 hours ago, DMS said:

This is your explanation for irrationality of shooting civilian people just before leaving? (Bodies are not burried, even not stiffened) Mad soldiers who kill people because they envy to their wealth. 

I am not sure, should I write that this is BS and Russia is generally more wealthy than Ukraine. That I was in Ukraine, that I know statistics about their salaries and their median salary is lower (average salary also lower, obviously). Or all that is odd because all gone emotional. Well, I did it.

"Russia is generally more wealthy than Ukraine"

Yes, that's why russian butchers loot washing machines

Because russians are wealthy and Ukrainians are poor.

[Ts4EVER]

Thing with average income is that in a society characterised by big inequality it can be quite misleading. My guess is that these crimes are caused by a mixture of envy, frustration with the situation and an attempt to regain control through terror.

[dan/california]

Steve mentioned this earlier to some extent, but the Russians have given up on taking much/any more territory in Ukraine and started systematically attacking rail lines. I think the nationwide attacks on fuel depots are part of the same thing. The Russians are trying wreck Ukrainian logistics as far into Ukraine as they can reach. It is going to take the second coming of the Red Ball express to keep the Ukrainians in the fight. NATO needs to start organizing this TODAY. Including supplying engineering assets for temporary bridges. There also needs to be intelligent thought about how far things can move in civilian trucks, and how to transfer to smaller loads and/or military grade transport while minimizing vulnerability to Russian attack.

 

[Lethaface]

13 hours ago, BeondTheGrave said:

I would be interested to know why the US and NATO have decided to push harder for this. If I had to guess, Eastern NATO has been on board with 'big stuff' shipments much earlier on. RE: here the MiG deal. Lots of people panned the US's flatfooted response there, but contextually the US and UK have been right with Eastern Europe in pushing for heavier arms shipments. To me the limits have been what Western Europe is willing to send (theyre the truly skittish of the group) and what Russia will accept without retaliating. So whats changed now? Is it the situation in Ukraine? If so do we read this as a move to reinforce success OR to stave off potential failure? Perhaps theyre seeing things on the ground we cannot. But all international affairs have at their heart a component of domestic signaling. Such as the UK and BoJo. Whats changing now within NATO that is opening the door to more aid?

As always the saying is true: Victory has a thousand fathers. Defeat is an orphan. 

Afaik Germany was at first 'skittish' but isn't anymore. Or more precisely they had a law against sending any weapons to any country at war (given their history I'd say understandable). 

I find the competition about who has the largest / send the most a bit weird. And even if it were true that Western Europe is 'truly the most skittish' (not sure on what that's based), USA or UK could have mightily fine send in heavy equipment by themselves without 'Western Europe' agreeing. IIRC it was the Pentagon who said the MIG deal wasn't going to happen.

Anyway as far as I understand most countries have decided, also on request from Ukraine, not to give details about weapon deliveries. So who is sending what should be 'vague'.

The reason for sending more heavy stuff is imo quite simple: the war is getting nastier and taking longer. Originally only 'defensive' weapons were send. Now Ukraine is on the offensive, offensive weapons are being considered. 
Those heavy weapons are more difficult to prepare and send. Also for things like tanks, not everyone has ex-soviet pact type weaponry lying around in a decent state or can only send them at the cost of their own readiness. 

And yes, if large parts of Ukraine had faltered in the first few days nobody would have send a thing.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Lethaface