CM Cold War - Beta AAR - NO The_Capt or Bil

[Holien]

Just thought it might be useful to have a thread where folk can talk about the AAR but without Bil or The Capt peeking?

I enjoyed the discussion in Bil's thread about the tactics and other items that were perhaps better suited to it's own discussion. I have some questions which I will post later as off to enjoy the sun and get my daily walk in Lockdown....

Just Pre-Ordered the game so really looking forward to this title...

[Holien]

OK to start things off lets have a wager on who folk think will win.

I am thinking at the moment The Capt as he has numbers and quality, Bil is going to have to work very hard to take out the Soviet tanks and I think the quality will just edge it.

I don't think The Capt will fall into a X fire trap so easily...

[Rice]

40 minutes ago, Holien said:

I don't think The Capt will fall into a X fire trap so easily...

Judging by what we've seen so far I'd agree. It seems that Capt has been using his BMPs fairly liberally. But then again, he has a lot of them, + his tanks will prove an issue for Bil I believe. As long as Bil can stop Capt from entering the town then the game is definitely seems to be in his favor.

[HerrTom]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we can expect both main forces to run into each other in a nice clash of steel that the Capt might win due to his overwhelming firepower advantage. My read of the coming manoeuvres:

https://imgur.com/scpRyd

I'm not sure Bil is expecting a large push over the southern part of the valley, so it'll be interesting to see if he sniffs it out in time.

[Suzuya]

I actually quite like The Capt's use of his BMPs so far, to get fire into the valley Bill needs to use his M-150s and M60s to put down meaningful fire since his own M113s don't have the firepower to threaten much on the other side. Unless Bill can get some M47s up there he has to expose his armour to far cheaper yet still lethal BMP missile fire, i would trade a pair of BMPs from my scout company for an M60 in this scenario and probably happily call it a win, especially if he can knock out any of the RISE+ varients on the field.

[Pete Wenman]

Having made the map for this, I've got a good insight into the terrain.

The village sits in the valley bottom but Bil has covered routes through the woods into the village from his side, while Capt has to cover a lot of open fields to actually get there.

I think it is a clever move for him to already have infantry moving to the village as Bil can only really engage them with his own scouts of which he doesn't have many, or his M60's with HE. Neither is an attractive option for him, nor one his force is well suited to given armour dominates on both side. If Capt can get a foothold then all his other units can remain in the treeline and cover the village by fire so denying it to Bil. The reverse also applies for Bil but I think his lack of troopers here make it hard for him.

My money is on Capt (at least for the moment)

P

Edited February 25, 2021 by Pete Wenman

[Rice]

6 minutes ago, Pete Wenman said:

I think it is a clever move for him to already have infantry moving to the village as Bil can only really engage them with his own scouts of which he doesn't have many, or his M60's with HE.

It would definitely be an interesting strat if the Capt decides to use his infantry as M60 bait.

[Pete Wenman]

3 hours ago, Holien said:

Just Pre-Ordered the game so really looking forward to this title.

Just to add I think you will really like it. Plenty of cool moments already and some of the campaign battles and scenarios are real corkers !

P

[Rice]

10 minutes ago, Pete Wenman said:

Just to add I think you will really like it. Plenty of cool moments already and some of the campaign battles and scenarios are real corkers !

Since you worked on the game, can you provide some insight as the infantry dynamic? When US infantry engage Russian infantry, who usually ends up on top?

Once they get into the Town I'm curious if the US infantry will make up for their low numbers.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Rice
Contexualize Question

[Pete Wenman]

1 minute ago, Rice said:

Since you worked on the game, can you provide some insight as the infantry dynamic? When US infantry engage Russian infantry, who usually ends up on top?

Difficult to say as armour dominates in most of the stuff I've played. This is a real combined arms affair, and so infantry are just part of the puzzle. In simple terms most/all infantry is mechanised  and so this affects how things play out. In addition artillery and air support often features in high volumes (real "air land battle" stuff). I was working on a small scenario that was mainly infantry only but that's on hold as I work on other stuff. I might get it finished in time for release but there is a lot of stuff going down at the moment. 

One example of how infantry plays out though as a teaser - A US mech plt defending a small hill, can put up good fight against a BMP2 plt attack with tank support if the US player is canny. However if the Soviet player hits the position with cluster munitions as a prelude to the attack its not unusual to see the platoon pretty much destroyed. So good tactics and co-ordination are the real key, perhaps in a way the game has not really seen before due to the peer level tech.

P

[c3k]

1 hour ago, Pete Wenman said:

Having made the map for this, I've got a good insight into the terrain.

The village sits in the valley bottom but Bil has covered routes through the woods into the village from his side, while Capt has to cover a lot of open fields to actually get there.

I think it is a clever move for him to already have infantry moving to the village as Bil can only really engage them with his own scouts of which he doesn't have many, or his M60's with HE. Neither is an attractive option for him, nor one his force is well suited to given armour dominates on both side. If Capt can get a foothold then all his other units can remain in the treeline and cover the village by fire so denying it to Bil. The reverse also applies for Bil but I think his lack of troopers here make it hard for him.

My money is on Capt (at least for the moment)

P

@Pete Wenman, having fought on this map about 6 times (or more?) in the testing process, I have to publicly extol your map-making skills: this one is great!

The LOS are tricky, due to the elevations and woods. When Bil comes out of the woods on his right, at the base of the valley, he will be exposed to the The_Capt's base of fire in the woodline. Both wood lines: on either side of the highway bridge.

Conversely, where Bil set up his TOW launcher (the M150 that got hit) that hull-down position is great for overwatch on the open area on Bil's right, from the valley bottom UP to The_Capt's left-flank woods.

It looks to me like there's gonna be a knife fight down in the valley.

 

[c3k]

Gotta add this: the period depicted is awesome. Meaning, literally, filling one with awe. The amount of arty and air and the damage they can inflict, as well as the numbers involved, and the Soviet T-64 vs the M48/early M60, new ATGMs, makes every encounter a very touch-and-go event. If you get cocky...you die. And once the dying starts, it just keeps going.

Look at how any vehicle spotted in this AAR has died. Sure, they're just BMPs and M113s, but the accuracy and deadly effect of munitions...and the number of shooters...is what makes this a well-balanced period. Soviet numbers are offset by the assumption that they'd be attacking. The equipment is balanced: it's up to the user to make the difference.

DPICM must be seen to be believed.

On this AAR: it seems like Bil is falling for The_Capt's razzle-dazzle. Of course, of anyone, Bil will suss it out soon enough and be in a very balanced position to parry it. (At least, that's my assumption.  )

 

[Pete Wenman]

44 minutes ago, c3k said:

@Pete Wenman, having fought on this map about 6 times (or more?) in the testing process, I have to publicly extol your map-making skills: this one is great!

Cheers Mate - While I'm probably biased I think some of the maps in game (and not just mine) are top notch, and on the large side.

P

[BletchleyGeek]

Cheers @Holien for starting the thread, and @Pete Wenman for sharing the map source (and the mapping work which we all will be enjoying soon enough). Having the maps helped me heaps to wrap my head around the AAR.

Bil's force doesn't seem to have much heft to hold ground. So my guess is that he expects to be killing lots of Soviet infantry (and tanks) before they can dismount with his arty and attack helicopters. All he needs is to stall Warren's attack long enough to pour molten lead on the heads of his enemies, and even the odds.

Much can go wrong with that.

Warren's proposition is much simpler and robust, in my opinion. Depends less on what Bill can or will do (and that would be the point, to render Bil's decisions irrelevant due to overwhelming local force ratios in his favour).

So in the spirit of those late 1970s manuals @akdhas been digging out, I would say Bill has a success probability of 0.3.

Edited February 25, 2021 by BletchleyGeek

[Lethaface]

Not sure. I think Bil may be able to force out Capt's base of fire AFVs using cluster bomb artillery (along the treeline or around the bridge seem good targets), going for positional advantage on the right flank and probably do well fighting it out. Some Cobra's might come in as flying cavalry and save the day. At the same time, Capt has called artillery of his own and manpads might shoot those Cobra's down.

Are there any flanking opportunities from Bils left flank?

Anyway I'll put my money on Bil to balance out the odds a bit ;-).

 

 

[Sprocketman]

I asked this question in Bil's thread, but I'll pose it here for discussion. Based on Bil's pre-game analysis, it sounds like the only infantry Bil has at his disposal is (6) scout teams (assumed to be small, 2-4 men squads), compared to Capt's maybe 2 platoons of Russian line infantry. If I were Bil, I'd be extremely worried about my opponent getting his infantry into the town because at that point I'm not sure Bil has the pixeltruppen to dig Capt back out. 

It seems like Bil realizes that and is trying to dominate the field around the town and interdict his opponent's movement, but in order for that strategy to pay off I think he needs an overwhelmingly favorable result in the early game skirmishes, and I don't know he'll achieve that.

[IMHO]

6 hours ago, Pete Wenman said:

Difficult to say as armour dominates in most of the stuff I've played

Is HE arty support deals more damage to armored vehicles than in CMBS? More mobility kills? More damage to sights?

Edited February 26, 2021 by IMHO

[Sgt.Squarehead]

5 hours ago, Pete Wenman said:

While I'm probably biased I think some of the maps in game (and not just mine) are top notch, and on the large side.

Really can't wait to see 'em. 

[IICptMillerII]

56 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Is HE arty support deals more damage to armored vehicles than in CMBS? More mobility kills? More damage to sights?

Well, there is DPICM now. So, if you are using HE artillery against tanks it is now doubly wrong. 

[IMHO]

33 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Well, there is DPICM now. So, if you are using HE artillery against tanks it is now doubly wrong. 

Well I'd argue about "wrong"  There was a topic some years ago about RL effect of heavy (122mm-152/155mm) HEFRAG bombardment on armored vehicles. I gave the RL test range data - CMBS severely underestimates it IMO. Plus in CMBS the damage to sights and other equipment may happen only if there is a direct top hit. FRAG effect for nearby explosions - however close - is not modelled.

Edited February 26, 2021 by IMHO

[BletchleyGeek]

I am not totally sure either @Lethaface- you raise a good point. The thing is that as far as I understand Warren is planning to push through his left flank (which is Bil's right flank). So if Bil uses his cluster ammo volley on those targets you mention, it may well be that he only hits trees, rather than Soviet AFVs. Those SBF positions that Bil has in his analysis seem to me only to exist there, rather than being something Warren actually intends doing.

4 hours ago, Lethaface said:

Are there any flanking opportunities from Bils left flank?

There's a forest with some logging trails crisscrossing it. I don't think Bil has even mentioned them in his analysis. Warren's sketch was seemingly avoiding them as well.

Edited February 26, 2021 by BletchleyGeek

[BletchleyGeek]

4 hours ago, Sprocketman said:

I'm not sure Bil has the pixeltruppen to dig Capt back out.

I don't think so either. I have the sense that Bil isn't playing the ball, but the man.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I'm going against the majority here and betting that Bil's use of artillery will offset the Soviet firepower edge.

He's ided enough to know that he can't go after infantry with his M60's.

[Holien]

I too like others think the lack of infantry will hurt Bil.

Yes if his tanks can survive they can have a go at destroying them, but once you have the infantry in buildings away from the edges of the village then it gets a lot harder as you then risk your vehicles to hand held AT.

The Capt seems to be prepared to walk infantry spread out down to the village?

I am looking forward to learning about the effects of DPICM on armour and that will only work if you can get it on target, often easier said than done.

My first understanding of this period of conflict was playing in the 80's with micro armour and using the WRG rules on table top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargames_Research_Group

And just recently I played World at War Storming the Gap 85

https://store.lnlpublishing.com/world-at-war-85-series

This was being taught on TTS and allowed me to play the game with the designer. Excellent Table Top game and reminded me how the first M1 was no super tank as my tanks got taken out....

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2141595623

Really glad that times have changed and this period has now become fashionable and hence a market for folk to spend money on.

I think it is in part down to folk like me who were kids in that age, computer literate and with disposable income to relive their childhoods. Just seeing the number of people saying how they served in Germany and are up for this shows the demand I think (hope)...

 

 

 

[Hapless]

My concern for Bil is that he will still be OOing when The_Capt DAs all over him.