Wittmann's Demise Scenario

[CanuckGamer]

I'm in to my second PBEM of Wittman's Demise as the Allies and getting my butt kicked again.  I think the tank losses so far are something like 20-4 in favour of the Germans.  In both games the German player sits out on the open plain at distance from the Allied positions with his Tigers while his other forces advance on the left or right flanks.  The only tank that can take on a Tiger is a Firefly but they don't always destroy a Tiger with one hit.  However, one hit from a Tiger and it's over for the Firefly.  On top of this the Mark IV and assault guns are better able to take hits compared to the Sherman.  Later in the scenario the German gets Panthers.

I find this scenario odd considering that historically I believe the Germans took a licking.  It seems the only thing the Allied player can do is hide in the woods with their tanks and hope to get off the first shot at close range. 

I'm wondering what the experience of other players with this scenario is and what kind of strategy and tactics they employ with the Allies.,

[Sgt.Squarehead]

It may be that the scenario is intended to be played against the AI and thus is not properly balanced for 2p HtH.....As I understand it Wittmann's actions on the day he died were not terribly wise, so the designer may have the AI scripted to model that in a way that a human player would not.

[Bulletpoint]

15 minutes ago, CanuckGamer said:

On top of this the Mark IV and assault guns are better able to take hits compared to the Sherman.

StuGs are pretty tough, but Mark IVs are paper thin.. They are a bad matchup against a Sherman.

[Falaise]

here we have the proof that the allies in 1944 were very good
or that wittman was not as good as they say
I, who have had the opportunity to rub shoulders with veterans of both camps, always have more admiration for Allied tankers

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, Falaise said:

or that wittman was not as good as they say

I believe many 'war heroes' were just lucky fools. Till their luck ran out.

In a war of millions of people, there will be many who are foolhardy. We remember the luckiest ones.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Bulletpoint

[BluecherForward]

I have also had the honor to speak with veterans of both sides of the war in Europe, including an American tanker (Sherman) who talked about getting multiple Shermans shot out from under him. He just got in the next one they gave him and pushed on.

[Vacillator]

Here's my result (albeit only on Warrior):

With a lot of luck I got all 7 Tigers to the end, including of course Wittmann's.  One lost its main gun early in the action, adding to the stress.  Kept it along for the support / deception anyway...

Most of my 7 tank losses were in front of Gaumesnil walled compound but overall not bad at all. 

Not too happy about the 'acceptable' British Ground and the Failed 'targets' and 'parameters' as they only had a few casualties left in those postions, but never mind.

Great scenario, great map, thanks to @George MC

FWIW I sent the Tigers slowly and cautiously towards the edge of the woods on the right flank and eventually managed to get the infantry support on that flank quite a long way up the map.  Meanwhile the other armour on the left flank did a great job, reinforced by the Panthers and Jagdpanzers.  I seemed to have a lot of Panzer IVs and most were on the right supporting the Tigers and killing Shermans coming down that side.  Both objectives were captured and at the end we all sat and relaxed for half an hour drinking ersatz coffee with no opposition showing.  Great scenario.

 

[George MC]

On 1/10/2020 at 6:12 PM, CanuckGamer said:

I'm in to my second PBEM of Wittman's Demise as the Allies and getting my butt kicked again.  I think the tank losses so far are something like 20-4 in favour of the Germans.  In both games the German player sits out on the open plain at distance from the Allied positions with his Tigers while his other forces advance on the left or right flanks.  The only tank that can take on a Tiger is a Firefly but they don't always destroy a Tiger with one hit.  However, one hit from a Tiger and it's over for the Firefly.  On top of this the Mark IV and assault guns are better able to take hits compared to the Sherman.  Later in the scenario the German gets Panthers.

I find this scenario odd considering that historically I believe the Germans took a licking.  It seems the only thing the Allied player can do is hide in the woods with their tanks and hope to get off the first shot at close range. 

I'm wondering what the experience of other players with this scenario is and what kind of strategy and tactics they employ with the Allies.,

Apologies - I've just picked this up. Don't know how I missed it!

In RL as has been pointed out, Wittmann's actions, for whatever reasons ended up with poor outcomes for his command. In reality Wittmann's command going up in smoke was not the edn of the battle. Plenty more went on for the rest of the day - an account of the action can be found in the accompanying PDF. Yup Shermans attempting to go toe to toe with Tigers and Panthers will not fair well at all at all.

The scenario can be played H2H but if the German player uses better tactics than were used in RL they will tend to fair better than what happened in the RL action. 

Cheery!

 

PS just minded @Bil Hardenberger did an excellent AAR of his PBEM 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by George MC

[George MC]

22 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

Here's my result (albeit only on Warrior):

With a lot of luck I got all 7 Tigers to the end, including of course Wittmann's.  One lost its main gun early in the action, adding to the stress.  Kept it along for the support / deception anyway...

Most of my 7 tank losses were in front of Gaumesnil walled compound but overall not bad at all. 

Not too happy about the 'acceptable' British Ground and the Failed 'targets' and 'parameters' as they only had a few casualties left in those postions, but never mind.

Great scenario, great map, thanks to @George MC

FWIW I sent the Tigers slowly and cautiously towards the edge of the woods on the right flank and eventually managed to get the infantry support on that flank quite a long way up the map.  Meanwhile the other armour on the left flank did a great job, reinforced by the Panthers and Jagdpanzers.  I seemed to have a lot of Panzer IVs and most were on the right supporting the Tigers and killing Shermans coming down that side.  Both objectives were captured and at the end we all sat and relaxed for half an hour drinking ersatz coffee with no opposition showing.  Great scenario.

 

Cheers ta! Impressive result! I've played this versus the AI and in a PBEM. In the PBEM I got a bit of a kicking against my oppo (who played the Brits) whilst i made a very good attempt at emulating the German tactics and course of action (with similar resultant outcomes!)...

Aye Gaumesnil can be 'problematic' as it was in the actual action.

Glad you enjoyed it. I spent a fair bit of time trying to get the map 'right' for this one, as I did the Villers Bocage scenario - mainly to explore what happened in both actions.

Cheers for posting the AAR.

Cheery!

[Vacillator]

36 minutes ago, George MC said:

Glad you enjoyed it.

One of the absolute best for me so far George (not the first time for your scenarios).  Tense, especially knowing the history of the action.  The map was great and having a bit of time allowed me to set up some great ambushes in places like the 'petit ravin' and to carefully take out nasties like Fireflies hiding behind buildings.  I even enjoyed unleashing the artillery and getting in close to see the effects!   Thanks again!

[PIATpunk]

one of my favourites too. A treat to play and revel in the historical accuracy.  Bravo George!

[George MC]

22 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

One of the absolute best for me so far George (not the first time for your scenarios).  Tense, especially knowing the history of the action.  The map was great and having a bit of time allowed me to set up some great ambushes in places like the 'petit ravin' and to carefully take out nasties like Fireflies hiding behind buildings.  I even enjoyed unleashing the artillery and getting in close to see the effects!   Thanks again!

Thank you - really pleased you enjoyed it so much :)

Aye Kampfgruppe Waldemüller’s attack when it finally went in, with 15-20 Mark IVs advancing to the north. Fire from the tanks of the 1st Northhamptonshire Yeomanry knocked some of them out, but others reached the cover of the densely wooded hedgerow and gully known as “Le Petit Ravin.” As Ken Tout noted in his account a “stalking, hunting and killing contest” then took place in and around Le Petit Ravin between the forces of the Yeomanry and Kampgruppe Waldmüller. In my eyes this is the more noteworthy engagement in the whole battle but is often overlooked due to earlier events a kilometre or so to the left.

Cheery!

[George MC]

21 hours ago, PIATpunk said:

one of my favourites too. A treat to play and revel in the historical accuracy.  Bravo George!

Brilliant  Thank you!

[Warts 'n' all]

I'm thinking of giving both "Swords" and "Demise" another go. The recent hedgerow mods have given me a taste for Normandy again.

[Vacillator]

20 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I'm thinking of giving both "Swords" and "Demise" another go. The recent hedgerow mods have given me a taste for Normandy again.

I would heartily recommend doing so, but I must stop posting potential spoilers based on my experiences .  Having said that if you're giving them 'another go', you will have a good idea what to expect.  I am also using hedgerow and tree mods.

[Falaise]

AAR Wittman Demise George MC
Here is a scenario that I have been watching since I got the game.
I opened it, I looked at the superb map, I recognize the places.
But I'm not going to spoil it. Considering the amount of work to achieve it, the quality of the menu and the accompanying documentation, this is a great scenario and like a old bottle of wine, i respects
You have to find the opportunity, take the time ...
I also need to gain experience so that I can fully appreciate it.
I think about it regularly, I look at the pitch every time I pass there.
I open it from time to time to admire the map. I find the depression in the small wood where when I was 16 I found a tiger caterpillar link that I could not take, too heavy on my cycle, one of my big regrets !!!!
Then the big day arrives, tomorrow I don't work, Madame is up to bed, the children too, not a noise outside just the regular purring of the cat sleeping on the chair next to me
I have my plan in mind, a notepad handy. For the 1st minute, as usual, no movement, it's the observation turn, the vehicle pilots are unbuttoned to spot any contacts.
I press the red button and place the camera just behind Wittman who is looking at the battlefield stand up in his turret. I’m Wittman, I’m him, soon I’m going to launch my tigers to conquer the Jalousie Ridge and make history again.
Thirty seconds have elapsed I appreciate the moment… the sound of a hiss of shell, boom, a shell has just burst Wittman has disappeared ! a red cross floats above the tank. No it's not possible: Wittman is hit NO I check he is no longer in the tankcrew, NO
I don’t believe it I check the other tanks everyone is unharmed.
I'm aghast, one dead person in the record, that is Wittman.
I want to start again but the magic is broken, frustrated I go to bed.
Like  Bulletpoint sentence rings true

On 1/10/2020 at 9:51 PM, Bulletpoint said:

I believe many 'war heroes' were just lucky fools. Till their luck ran out.

In a war of millions of people, there will be many who are foolhardy. We remember the luckiest ones.

 

[mjkerner]

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry! Uhhhh, better luck next time?

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Falaise said:

I'm aghast, one dead person in the record, that is Wittman.

Mon dieu @Falaise my sympathies.  You may have seen earlier in the thread that was not my experience of the battle, in which there was no demise.  I would say " if at first you dont succeed" but of course that wasn't an option for either side in 1944.

Oh, and the Tiger track link is a shame but at least you have the memory.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Vacilllator

[George MC]

@Falaise I feel your pain! 
 

I appreciate the feedback on the map and it’s relationship to the real world. Actually really chuffed that I managed to get it close to the real place. 
 

Good luck for your next replay. Maybe go into battle buttoned up next time

[Warts 'n' all]

And the moral of the story is, never play CM with a sleeping pussy, they cheat.

[Vacillator]

On 9/22/2020 at 10:17 PM, Falaise said:

For the 1st minute, as usual, no movement, it's the observation turn

This caught my eye, must try this more often particularly in longer battles!

But also a question, did you re-position before turn 1 or were you in George's original default positions?  I ask because I have an inclination to try it again and see what happens to me, but it will depend on where we start as well as luck.  In my more cheeerful playthrough I had re-positioned before turn 1.  I neglected the observation turn though .

[Falaise]

On 9/22/2020 at 11:39 PM, mjkerner said:

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry! Uhhhh, better luck next time?

we have to laugh !!! even if at the time the sky fell on my head.

On 9/23/2020 at 8:35 AM, George MC said:

@Falaise I feel your pain! 
 

I appreciate the feedback on the map and it’s relationship to the real world. Actually really chuffed that I managed to get it close to the real place. 
 

Good luck for your next replay. Maybe go into battle buttoned up next time

yes the map is superb, the place has changed a lot but I have know how it was before
thank you for such a masterpiece

2 hours ago, Vacilllator said:

This caught my eye, must try this more often particularly in longer battles!

But also a question, did you re-position before turn 1 or were you in George's original default positions?  I ask because I have an inclination to try it again and see what happens to me, but it will depend on where we start as well as luck.  In my more cheeerful playthrough I had re-positioned before turn 1.  I neglected the observation turn though .

quite honestly, is that good advice ???
yes this is the original position, just over the side of the road
the 1st minute

[Vacillator]

1 hour ago, Falaise said:

quite honestly, is that good advice ???

For me yes.  I am prone to thinking 'okay, I need to get these guys over there and these ones there, as quick as possible and in as much force as possible'.  My version of 'klotzen nicht kleckern' as Guderian once said (or so I read).  I am however learning the fine art of patience, observation and reconaissance in this marvellous game.

And I should say my successful games have typically been the patient, cautious ones...

Edited September 24, 2020 by Vacilllator
My poor German language skills

[Vacillator]

Okay, @Falaise out of curiosity I have replayed the first turn with no re-positioning and no movement orders, and with the camera behind Wittmann's head as you described.  For me, there was some incoming artillery to the right (near to other Tigers but no damage done).  There were no spotted contacts shown and no direct fire that I could see, so I think you were indeed my friend very unlucky .

Unless of course @George MC says there are various alternative starting positions for the Allies if you are playing as Axis?  I'm not even sure you can do this, but my fumbling in the editor neither confirmed nor denied it.  I suspect not.

I would say go again, assuming the inhabitants of your home are suitably positioned .

[George MC]

29 minutes ago, Vacilllator said:

Okay, @Falaise out of curiosity I have replayed the first turn with no re-positioning and no movement orders, and with the camera behind Wittmann's head as you described.  For me, there was some incoming artillery to the right (near to other Tigers but no damage done).  There were no spotted contacts shown and no direct fire that I could see, so I think you were indeed my friend very unlucky .

Unless of course @George MC says there are various alternative starting positions for the Allies if you are playing as Axis?  I'm not even sure you can do this, but my fumbling in the editor neither confirmed nor denied it.  I suspect not.

I would say go again, assuming the inhabitants of your home are suitably positioned .

There shouldn't be anything on the brits/Canuks that will have eyes on in the opening turn. Most likely just some stray shrapnel from the Brit arty.

You can use different set-ups for the AI controlled side - its easy enough to do via the editor. I can't recall without cracking this open in the editor if I did that for the Allied AI this mission. I know I did for the German AI side.