Ivanov Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 There's much debate on what could NATO do for Ukraine but it turns out, that the very likely next US president, discredits the solidarity principle of the alliance. It may happen that the Balitics will be left on their own at the end. I'm pretty sure that with each new Trump's statement about the foreign policy, they open a champagne in the Kremlin.http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/07/trump-nato/492341/ Sorry if that has been already discussed here but I've been unable to follow the forum for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiduk Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Then, I suppose we will develop "new Rzech Pospolyta" - military union of Ukraine, Poland, Baltic States (now united brigade is forming) and possibly Georgia. From "old Europe" only Great Britain left as opponent of Russia and can support us. Also Canada - our old good ally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanov Posted July 27, 2016 Author Share Posted July 27, 2016 6 minutes ago, Haiduk said: Then, I suppose we will develop "new Rzech Pospolyta" - military union of Ukraine, Poland, Baltic States (now united brigade is forming) and possibly Georgia. From "old Europe" only Great Britain left as opponent of Russia and can support us. Also Canada - our old good ally. Sure thing. We'll just need to develop nuclear weapons then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) Supposedly rank and file US millitary support Trump more than Clinton. I can see the turn off with Clinton, but holy **** at least she doesnt want to eviscerate a very useful alliance (not just militarily, but politically it brings a lot of like minded countries together) that has ensured peace in europe and, at a cynical level, copted any potential European rivals to US military power. And NATO is the big one. What about all the other alliances? If he turns on NATO, why would anyone trust any assurances from there on? It would seriously degrade the worth of American military and political credit abroad. Any reasonable staff officer down south must be taking serious pause right now.... Edited July 27, 2016 by kinophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerminatorX Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 I know right? It's crazy that the United States might not want to drive itself further into debt while all of these NATO countries openly flaunt the agreed upon membership requirements. Europeans shouldn't actually have to feel responsible for the defense of Europe, that would just be racist or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 3 hours ago, kinophile said: Supposedly rank and file US millitary support Trump more than Clinton. I can see the turn off with Clinton, but holy **** at least she doesnt want to eviscerate a very useful alliance (not just militarily, but politically it brings a lot of like minded countries together) that has ensured peace in europe and, at a cynical level, copted any potential European rivals to US military power. And NATO is the big one. What about all the other alliances? If he turns on NATO, why would anyone trust any assurances from there on? It would seriously degrade the worth of American military and political credit abroad. Any reasonable staff officer down south must be taking serious pause right now.... The support for Trump is actually pretty marginal in uniform. A larger portion of the US military will support anything with a (r) behind their name. But there is a very, very, very low satisfaction with him as a candidate, and there's few enthusiastic Trump supporters. I'm really hoping Trump goes down in flames. He keeps saying really moronic stuff and it disturbs me greatly he's not sinking as fast as he should. If he does win though, he still has a wide variety of obstacles that keep him in check, and they will almost doubtlessly be manned by democrats (who hate him), establishment republicans (who also hate him), or just people who want to win their next election (who are giving him a pretty wide berth) Basically in a nutshell there's a very angry portion of the American populace that's driving Trump forward. He might win the election just because of disunity in the opposition, but it'd doubtful his agenda or platform would survive the resulting post election insurgency. As to Terminator: Or maybe you know, we actually benefit from global stability and a fairly peaceful Europe enough that at a strategic level it's worth accepting some fiscal losses. Because you know, a Russian dominated Eastern Europe would be a problem in the long run. Unless you're Trump, then you can be BFFs with your mancrush and you can ride horses shirtless at petty tyrant camp or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A co Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 JFK's 'Bear any burden' statement. I think about this often lately. This is what courage sounds like, not "What's in it for me?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 25 minutes ago, A co said: JFK's 'Bear any burden' statement. I think about this often lately. This is what courage sounds like, not "What's in it for me?" Not just courage, but it's what American ideals sound like. What made us great in the first place, not some cheap tarted up buzz words and blatant racism. Trump is an abject coward and it disgusts me he can even claim our citizenship, let alone dare to claim its highest office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A co Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename Duchess Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Believe me, there's no widespread support for Trump in the military. Hillary isn't any more popular, but don't sit there thinking we love the guy. Some do, sure, but not as many as you seem to think. I think he's a reckless, irresponsible loudmouth. I think this is a very dangerous topic to discuss though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Agreed while I totally agree with the sentiment, this is gonna get shut down. Too much politics. Discussing options in the event US does do something stupid relative to NATO is likely fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) Heh it would actually make done of the zanier ideas floated in this forum possible - NATO without US is not easy for RUS but still WAAAAAYYYYYY easier. What's that sound you hear? Why yes let me just finish opening this rusty can of thresher worms.... Edited July 28, 2016 by kinophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Charlemagne Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Trump is not going to abolish NATO. What he has said is that he wants the members of NATO to pitch in a lot more than they are now - in terms of spending and responsibility/capability. He has rightly pointed out that the US does a more lot of NATO's heavy lifting than they used to during the Cold War Era. I believe that his rhetoric should be seen as an intent to pressure NATO members to do their part to free up US forces to focus elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Personally I'd say courage (& wisdom) sounds more like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 1 hour ago, AtheistDane said: Trump is not going to abolish NATO. What he has said is that he wants the members of NATO to pitch in a lot more than they are now - in terms of spending and responsibility/capability. He has rightly pointed out that the US does a more lot of NATO's heavy lifting than they used to during the Cold War Era. I believe that his rhetoric should be seen as an intent to pressure NATO members to do their part to free up US forces to focus elsewhere. Incorrect. Well, out of date, really. That was his starting position. Now it has ...evolved? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36852805 http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us/politics/donald-trump-issues.html?_r=0 Basically completely undermines Art V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 2 hours ago, AtheistDane said: Trump is not going to abolish NATO. What he has said is that he wants the members of NATO to pitch in a lot more than they are now - in terms of spending and responsibility/capability. He has rightly pointed out that the US does a more lot of NATO's heavy lifting than they used to during the Cold War Era. I believe that his rhetoric should be seen as an intent to pressure NATO members to do their part to free up US forces to focus elsewhere. I'm sure that one of Trumps previous contenders for his VP slot said that Estonia was basically a suburb of St Petersburg really helped in terms of "pressuring NATO members to do there part". All it does is make us seem insane and destabilizes the entire region. Its nonsensical babble by people who have no idea how foreign policy works and want votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 4 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said: Not just courage, but it's what American ideals sound like. What made us great in the first place, not some cheap tarted up buzz words and blatant racism. Amen. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I like the fresh non anti-Russia perspective Trump brings, I like most of his ideas for the US as well. But the way he projects his ideas to get more popularity makes him seem racist/radical. If Trump becomes president I dont think much would change as congress is the big guy. And I dont think he would be able to take the US out of NATO, wouldn't congress have to approve of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) Of course you like Trump. Putin said Russia likes Trump. I like all the non western hating fear mongering politicians and journalists in Russi- oh wait they all get murdered in some stairwell without valuables being taken and noone ever solves the crime. Edited July 28, 2016 by Sublime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said: I like the fresh non anti-Russia perspective Trump brings, I like most of his ideas for the US as well. But the way he projects his ideas to get more popularity makes him seem racist/radical. If Trump becomes president I dont think much would change as congress is the big guy. And I dont think he would be able to take the US out of NATO, wouldn't congress have to approve of that? Trump doesn't like Russia because of who you are as a people, he likes Russia because he makes a lot of money from your country. He would have no problem hating on you tomorrow if for some reason a business deal fell through, he is not a competent leader and I really think you should read up on him before you start fawning over him. Edited July 28, 2016 by Raptorx7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Oh but he has raptor from such unassailable news sources such as sputnik and RT no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Placebo Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 My impression (from over the water in UK) is that Trump says anything that comes into his head, then if everyone says "thats stupid" he just changes his position the next day, if not that is his policy. Scary times, I just hope he gets some good advise from the military if he is is ever put in charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Oh yeah please roast me for being a Russian and liking Trump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 11 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said: Oh yeah please roast me for being a Russian and liking Trump... Heres an olive branch for you that will probably make you get the point. I know for a fact that Putin is a smarter leader than Trump is, for all the awful things Putin has done he doesn't get the stupidest presidential candidate award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladimirTarasov Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 The thing is people assumed I Iike Trump because of Putin... This is incorrect I supported him before Putin said anything about him. I have family members living in the US, which I talk to about politics. And I like the republicans way more than the democrats. But anyways this is the most extreme off topics I've been too sorry but I had too On topic, is there a way Trump could be able to take the US out of NATO if he's president or is that one of his PR stunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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