Time On Target (TOT)?

[Big Boss]

Do anybody knows if Time On Target (TOT) is included/planned as an artillery option on the allied side. I read that it was a somewhat new feature used by US artillery (battalion, division and corps level) during the battle. TOT is where the artillery fire by many weapons is synchronized using a fire direction center (FDC) so that all the munitions arrive at the target at “precisely” the same time.

For standard artillery the first few rounds is most effective when they catch the enemy in the open and unprepared. After the first salvo the enemy troops take cover and the effect is reduced dramatically. TOT could sometimes have an devastating effect and was more economical of ammunition.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Big Boss

[Big Boss]

I guess nobody knows if it’s going to be in CMFB.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Its not mentioned in features for CMFB so no I don't think this will be included.

[iluvmy88]

This is only used in modern weapons, the way it works is the FDC makes all the calulactions via computer and all those calculations are sent to the guns in the battery giving individual firing data, its too complicated to be used via verbal communication so not a  WW2 thing. A paladin battery can lay down 9 rounds simultaiosly by firing at various trajectories and charges. WW2 preplanned was more like such and such battery would fire at  X area for Y time then shift fire or cease.

[herr_oberst]

Hmm. TOT was used in WWII, but not in the manner of a modern Paladin.  It was based on the batteries all knowing where they were, their distance to target, and projecting the flight times for their rounds.  It was less "everyone fires at 0800" and more "everyones rounds land at 0800". The precise firing time for each battery was calculated individually by the battery if I remember what I read some time ago correctly.

[JasonC]

herr_oberst is correct, the US artillery definitely practiced TOT missions at this stage of WW II - and used them with considerable effect in front of the Elsenborn ridge position, among other places.

[Big Boss]

And thats why I thought it would be an interesting feature in CMFB.

[Ultradave]

22 hours ago, iluvmy88 said:

This is only used in modern weapons, the way it works is the FDC makes all the calulactions via computer and all those calculations are sent to the guns in the battery giving individual firing data, its too complicated to be used via verbal communication so not a  WW2 thing. A paladin battery can lay down 9 rounds simultaiosly by firing at various trajectories and charges. WW2 preplanned was more like such and such battery would fire at  X area for Y time then shift fire or cease.

Sorry, I have to disagree with this. As an artillery officer and FDO from the 70s and 80s in an airborne unit (which in the airborne predates the use of any computers), we routinely fired Bn TOT missions, calculating the data at the Bn FDC. Each Battery FDC also had to have the skill to do it themselves for the whole battalion, in case the Bn FDC was unavailable (dead, moving, out of comm). We did it all manually with plotting pins and firing sticks, both at the Bn and Battery level. There was a time standard to meet to have all the data down to the batteries and off hand I can't remember what that was, but it was challenging but doable.

I don't classify this as "modern" weapons, since in our case, the technology used was pretty much indistinguishable from WW2 or Korea. It's not too complicated for verbal transmission. The data is sent to each battery as deflection, elevation and time (for the fuse - if applicable). Firing was controlled by radio. All batteries on the net and Bn FDC gives the order to each battery to fire at the appropriate time. At the battery level we we set ourselves up so that the FDO had line of sight to the battery XO or CFB and gave a arm slash down hand signal to fire, immediately repeated. Only a fraction delay from the radio call (and the same in each battery so the delay cancels.)  I was a battery Fire Direction Officer, and later an Asst. S3 and in charge of the Bn FDC.

We even once did a DIVARTY TOT. (not for real action - as a demo/test). 54 rounds going off simultaneously - mix of PD and time fuses, was really impressive.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Ultradave

[iluvmy88]

1 hour ago, Ultradave said:

Sorry, I have to disagree with this. As an artillery officer and FDO from the 70s and 80s in an airborne unit (which in the airborne predates the use of any computers), we routinely fired Bn TOT missions, calculating the data at the Bn FDC. Each Battery FDC also had to have the skill to do it themselves for the whole battalion, in case the Bn FDC was unavailable (dead, moving, out of comm). We did it all manually with plotting pins and firing sticks, both at the Bn and Battery level. There was a time standard to meet to have all the data down to the batteries and off hand I can't remember what that was, but it was challenging but doable.

I don't classify this as "modern" weapons, since in our case, the technology used was pretty much indistinguishable from WW2 or Korea. It's not too complicated for verbal transmission. The data is sent to each battery as deflection, elevation and time (for the fuse - if applicable). Firing was controlled by radio. All batteries on the net and Bn FDC gives the order to each battery to fire at the appropriate time. At the battery level we we set ourselves up so that the FDO had line of sight to the battery XO or CFB and gave a arm slash down hand signal to fire, immediately repeated. Only a fraction delay from the radio call (and the same in each battery so the delay cancels.)  I was a battery Fire Direction Officer, and later an Asst. S3 and in charge of the Bn FDC.

We even once did a DIVARTY TOT. (not for real action - as a demo/test). 54 rounds going off simultaneously - mix of PD and time fuses, was really impressive.

I would take your word for it your more experienced than me, im not a gun bunny i just work with em =D. i think you would be impessed with what they can do now if you havent seen it already. especially if they throw the MLRS in the mix (you prob seen that little bucket of hell).

[Ultradave]

Oh, I know. Have a nephew in FA.

[Big Boss]

Is TOT or its modern equivalent an option in Battlefront:s modern titles, CMSF or CMBS? I don’t have any of them but it would be interesting if they did. Then it would be “easy” to add that feature to a WW2 title as well. If not then I suspect it slips down a few knots on the priority list at BFC.

[Pak40]

TOT was definitely used in WWII, and as JasonC mentioned, very effective in front of Elsenbone Ridge. I have just read about it in The Shock of War. There's a whole chapter about the artillery on both sides.

As for the reason why it's not used in CMx2, opinion is that it was never used in an ad hoc basis. It was probably only used as a preparatory barrage. These things took some time to coordinate and set up. A prep barrage of this magnitude of multiple batteries can easily be simulated in CMx2 in the the setup phase.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Pak40

[AttorneyAtWar]

And now we have proximity fuses, which I am sure will make it all the more horrifyingly deadly.

[Ultradave]

Also tends to be used for "high value targets". Like a large concentration of troops in an assembly area preparing to move out. Maybe a higher HQ discovered. That sort of thing is just above the level of CM. 

[purpheart23]

7 hours ago, Ultradave said:

We even once did a DIVARTY TOT. (not for real action - as a demo/test). 54 rounds going off simultaneously - mix of PD and time fuses, was really impressive.

Definitely wasn't a Paladin unit/Divarty if you had every gun :). I'm guessing 82nd, 3-319th FA? Just a shot. I don't recognize the crest right off hand but will probably google it as soon as I post this. 

 

Edit- Ah 321st. Very nice. Did some time in C 1-377th at campbell

Edited March 30, 2016 by purpheart23

[Ultradave]

Cool. My time was in the 82d. I was a FIST Chief in A/1-320th FA (supporting C/1-325PIR (used to be the old glider regt), then a FDO in B/2-321 FA, and then Asst S3 in 2-321. In between a Fire Support Officer for 3rd Bde.  This was way back in the day when the two division's (82d and 101st) FA units were all mixed up regimental wise.  We had 1-320, 1-319, 2-321 in the 82d. There have been organizational changes since then. Loved my time, especially in the 2-321. We had a terrific Bn Cdr and an equally great Sgt Major. Great unit, great people.

M102 towed howitzers (105mm and towed by Goats), or carried by Hueys (and then we got Blackhawks and thought we'd died and gone to heaven).

The motto on the crest translates literally to "Do not touch me"  We preferred the looser translation of "Don't f*** with me"

Edited March 30, 2016 by Ultradave

[TheForwardObserver]

They sound great, but Army doctrine restricts use of TOTs to early AM pre-planned barrages when the sole desired effect is waking peacefully slumbering FIST detachments

[A co]

In '87 we did an air assault mission that combined a TOT mission and the firing of a Dragon ATGM.

The rounds arrived within a couple of seconds of the Dragon hitting the 'enemy tank' (actually a dumpster). We had to hustle to get from the LZ to the firing position in time for the TOT. The idea of the TOT was to suppress any reaction by dismounts against our little Dragon detachment (gunner, Plt Sgt, and yours truly the RTO). 

Probably the most clever and well coordinated thing I ever saw happen in the Army.

Ne desit virtus.

 

[purpheart23]

Besides my stint at Campbell and shooting with the Marines field Testing the M-777, i've been in heavy units. I can absolutely say that light is right, heavy is just Maintenance Maintenance, Maintenance and the stuff is still never fixed. Doesn't help that our budget is practically non existent except to fix deadlines on pacing items.. i.e. the guns. Ah well. Those were the days. As far at the TOT stuff, nothing a few motivated Deltas can't accomplish with a radio and the ol "charts and darts".

[MikeyD]

You got me curious so I did a little in-game test.

TOT can be simulated in the game already pretty nicely.
Purchase lots of separate artillery assets. At setup do a 'short/brief' artillery opening barrage for each of your artillery assets separately. When you hit GO your combined strike should all arrive together - or pretty darned close to together. Maybe even put a TRP under the location for good measure.  
This conforms pretty well to the concept of pre-planned strikes on already known locations by map coordinates without spotting rounds. In the game you can delay your 'opening barrage' for up to 15 minutes so you can maneuver your forces to take advantage of it. In my test I put 16(?) 155mm rounds on top of a single point within 15 seconds.

Don't try this after hitting GO, though. Your FO will need LOS on the target. The AI limits the number of separate artillery missions one FO can call (though you can combine assets into a single strike). Plus arrival times will be iffy due to variations in unit quality and morale.

Edited March 31, 2016 by MikeyD

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, MikeyD said:

TOT can be simulated in the game already pretty nicely.
Purchase lots of separate artillery assets. At setup do a 'short/brief' artillery opening barrage for each of your artillery assets separately. When you hit GO your combined strike should all arrive together - or pretty darned close to together. Maybe even put a TRP under the location for good measure.  
This conforms pretty well to the concept of pre-planned strikes on already known locations by map coordinates without spotting rounds.

Back when BN was newly out I did something similar. I targeted three batteries of rockets to hit a German infantry company on the hop in the first turn. There was no second turn as the TOT had totally wiped the German company out. It was quite spectacular and satisfying if a short game.

Michael

[iluvmy88]

This is why 

 

[purpheart23]

lol, the fisters are always shamming

[landser]

14 hours ago, MikeyD said:

 The AI limits the number of separate artillery missions one FO can call

What is this limit? Might explain the crashes I get starting the second mission in the CMBN campaign Lions of Carpiquet. When reaching this limit does the game not allow further fire missions to be issued, or can you continue assigning them even when exceeding this limit?

[Badger73]

15 hours ago, MikeyD said:

You got me curious so I did a little in-game test.

TOT can be simulated in the game already pretty nicely.
Purchase lots of separate artillery assets. At setup do a 'short/brief' artillery opening barrage for each of your artillery assets separately. When you hit GO your combined strike should all arrive together - or pretty darned close to together. Maybe even put a TRP under the location for good measure.  
This conforms pretty well to the concept of pre-planned strikes on already known locations by map coordinates without spotting rounds. In the game you can delay your 'opening barrage' for up to 15 minutes so you can maneuver your forces to take advantage of it. In my test I put 16(?) 155mm rounds on top of a single point within 15 seconds.

Don't try this after hitting GO, though. Your FO will need LOS on the target. The AI limits the number of separate artillery missions one FO can call (though you can combine assets into a single strike). Plus arrival times will be iffy due to variations in unit quality and morale.

Right.  This is my experience as well.  And you can further simulate ToT by delaying those pre-planned strikes to occur at a later time when creating that initial fire mission.  This would let you target an objective before the game begins, maneuver your forces for the time allotted, then sit tight while rounds fall, and afterwards proceed with your plan from there.