Spotting?

[weapon2010]

Has anyone done tests on wether or not certain tanks spot armor at distance better when they are buttoned up ?

[Luka]

I don't think so but everything should spot better when unbuttoned. Have you noticed any different?

[c3k]

Yes. Many such tests have been done.

What's up?

[Erwin]

My memory is hazy, but I recall a thread back in CMSF days that due to optics etc. some vehicles can spot better when buttoned up - in that everyone is inside looking at screens rather than eye-balling out the hatch. Probably when dealing with long range spotting?

[womble]

The discussions on the Black Sea Forum seem to agree that modern tanks have better senses for the things they're supposed to kill while buttoned up. Older gear pretty much needs to operate unbuttoned when spotting has any significance. The line seemed to be drawn about "T-55", to me. So, since you're asking this in the Red Thunder thread, the answer would be "No tanks spot better when buttoned-up." I don't recall anyone producing any tests to the contrary.

[weapon2010]

I thought that some german tanks with their superior optics would spot better at long range (1500m+ ) in a buttoned position.

[sburke]

I thought that some german tanks with their superior optics would spot better at long range (1500m+ ) in a buttoned position.

Not sure but would have to verify, but from a general perspective the superior optics have a very limited focal point so yeah if you are looking at a single spot they are superior, but if you are trying to watch the horizon you would end up with serious tunnel vision.  Binoculars outside the hatch would be far better.

[JasonC]

Weapon2010 - I think there is a misconception here about the physical layout of things.  The gunner is always looking through his telescopic sight, whether the tank is buttoned or not.  Buttoning only affects the tank commander, a different crewmember at a different station within the turret.  The tank commander does not have a telescopic sight, whether inside or outside.  Inside he has cupola vision blocks letting him look out of the turret in any direction, with only a few blocked areas between those.  On the better, cupola equipped tanks at least, including most German models.  The tank commander generally has hand held binocs, which he can use from either, but are somewhat easier to use outside.  Those give him a wider field of view but less magnification than the gunners telescope.  He can also just use his eyes, for wider awareness, but no magnification.

Things are a bit different on older tanks, early in the war, allied models especially.  Two man turrets require the tank commander to act as the loader, meaning they button to fire and lose wide situational awareness once in a gun duel.  Single man turrets have the commander acting as gunner too.  That is the only case in which being buttoned means access to a gunsight inside, that isn't available outside.  But also requires buttoning to fire etc.

In the typical German 3 man turret with cupola case, the best spotting happens unbuttoned, with the gunner fixing on the current target, as the commander uses binocs to scan for the next, and calls directions to the gunner.  Both have optics, and the gunners narrow straw at high mag, unable to scan actively, is covered by the commanders binocs doing that for him, first.  The TC passes spots to the gunner, who trains to the called azimuth, and magnifies, etc.

I hope that helps...

 

 

Edited November 7, 2015 by JasonC

[Bulletpoint]

The commander never seems to use his binoculars when unbuttoned though. Is that just a graphical limitation? Infantry are frequently shown spotting with their binoculars.

[Doc844]

And he always seems to get slotted by Vassily Zaitsev in every battle.  Big ass Panther coming towards a squad which is about 200-300m away and they decide to have a shot at the TC (and 9 times out of ten kill him) bit silly at times knowing that instant death is sure to follow.  But as people say thats what the pixeltruppen are there for.

[womble]

If they don't geek the TC, death's following anyway. And nailing the TC will often make the tank back off. Overall, the odds favour the soldier that shoots back (if there's any chance of hurting the target...).

[Bulletpoint]

And he always seems to get slotted by Vassily Zaitsev in every battle.  Big ass Panther coming towards a squad which is about 200-300m away and they decide to have a shot at the TC (and 9 times out of ten kill him) bit silly at times knowing that instant death is sure to follow.  But as people say thats what the pixeltruppen are there for.

It's a pretty well known issue, but people seem divided about whether or not it's a problem. The tank commander poking only his head out of a tank seems much more vulnerable than private Joe standing in the open outside. It may be because soldiers in the open get a cover modifier, while tank commanders do not.

[Doc844]

Yeah Ive seen the arguments for and against but for me, shooting at a small head shape from 100m+ with iron sights is a difficult shot, more luck than anything, especially for a bog standard infantryman.  Once in a battle maybe but 3 - 4 TC,s not likely.

[Bulletpoint]

Yeah Ive seen the arguments for and against but for me, shooting at a small head shape from 100m+ with iron sights is a difficult shot, more luck than anything, especially for a bog standard infantryman.  Once in a battle maybe but 3 - 4 TC,s not likely.

I agree. 

[A Canadian Cat]

The tank commander poking only his head out of a tank seems much more vulnerable than private Joe standing in the open outside.

My impression is the oposite: guys in tbe open are much more vulnerable than tank commanders. I see TC s duck down sucessfully frequently. Time for you guys to do some tests and show that something is off.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Once in a battle maybe but 3 - 4 TC,s not likely.

I don't know how likely, but it's not inconceivable.

All the Israeli tank and APC commanders were standing in their turrets.

The column came to a halt, and began receiving heavy small arms fire, also coming under attack by hand grenades. Within minutes, twenty out of the twenty-four Israeli tank commanders were hit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suez

[Bulletpoint]

 

I don't know how likely, but it's not inconceivable.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suez

Well, that is a story about an ambush inside a town. At short ranges in built up areas, I think most here agree tank commanders should be very vulnerable if they poke their heads out..

Edited November 9, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[Doc844]

Urban fighting is a whole new ball game, a 360 degree battlefield.   I did say on my post ranges from 100m+ over iron sights, aiming at a low profiled head in a copula is a difficult/lucky shot and to me it just happens to frequently.  Especially at the level of formations we are talking about, I mean it'd not as if we are taking a divisions casualties into consideration.  But as IanL said, testing is the only way to verify this so over the coming weeks I will hopefully be able to compile some meaningful data.

[womble]

I mostly lose TCs to either bursts of automatic fire or snipers. Autofire is meant to increase the chance of hitting "something" by putting more bullets in the air, and it seems to work. A head shot at 100m over iron sights is difficult, but when you've got entire squads of troops shooting, that small chance becomes more likely to come up, and when at least one of those is spraying automatic fire, it goes up some more. Indeed, at 100m, I'd expect to lose the TC to any overlooking LMG, in the course of a minute's potshots. Buttoning should happen way further back than that.

I'd prefer my TCs to be a little more wary of incoming small arms rounds, but I also don't want them getting too squirrelly too early in the fight, so I more often pick High motivation than Low (if I have a choice), and that's probably a factor in many folks' experience of daring TCs, braving hails of lead.

[Doc844]

Or you could just use an 88mm to snipe a TC lol.  (At 1:05)

Edited November 9, 2015 by Doc844

[Sgt Joch]

On the dangers of being a TC, on december 23rd 1944, U.S. 4th armored division, CCR was just outside Bigonville on the road to Bastogne. In the course of a few hours, nearly all the TCs in one tank company were picked off by rifle fire.

[Vet 0369]

Yeah Ive seen the arguments for and against but for me, shooting at a small head shape from 100m+ with iron sights is a difficult shot, more luck than anything, especially for a bog standard infantryman.  Once in a battle maybe but 3 - 4 TC,s not likely.

Well, I could, and probably still can, put 10 rounds into a group you can cover with your hand at 200 and 300 yards. That is with an M-14 or a WWII M1 in the prone position with standard aperture sights. I know I can hit a man's head at that distance. If the vehicle is moving it's a little more difficult. An exposed TC might not even hear a missed shot depending on how noisy the environment is. As a Marine or soldier, I'm going to be aiming for the highest value target and hope no one spots me. I'd say that a good marksman with a rifle could very conceivably take out multiple TCs before he gets taken out himself. Remember, the tanks will be protected by infantry. 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARINES - November 10, 1775 - 240 years young!

Edited November 10, 2015 by Vet 0369

[Doc844]

Now a base level must be established of how the game quantifies shooting in general.  I take it the game takes into experience so we would have to start with conscript level and work up the way.  So would conscripts be trained to the level of a modern US Marine, NO.  so this where it becomes difficult because there are so many variables to factor in.  Again did the russian infantry spend hours, weeks, years on the range honing their skills, NO.  Plus a a two way firing range is a different ball game to a nice flat range if it wasn't then terry taliban would be dead 10 times over by the amount of rounds fired in afghan and that's with modern rifles.

[Bulletpoint]

Maybe the tank commanders are poking up too much from the turret? I guess in real life, you'd just need to get your eyes above the level of the hatch to take a look around. Not your whole head, and definitely not your torso. Of course, if you wanted to see the area immediately around the tank, you'd need to raise yourself a bit more. But I suppose you wouldn't really want to do that if you had any suspicion there might be enemies next to the tank.

(there is a loading screen with two tank commanders quite far out of their hatches though, spotting something in the distance.. not sure if this was standard practice or just in that moment)

Edited November 11, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[Bloody Bill]

I don't understand spotting at times it really seems to make no sense.  I had a situation today where one Russian T34-85 buttoned up killed five Panzer IV.  T34-85 was regular buttoned up and nervous as all his buddies around him were dead.  The Panzer IV's were all Veteran and unbuttoned.  The fight was at 1,032meters.    The icons said I could see the Russian tank and eyeing it myself seemed to be able to see it as well.  The T34-85 just systematically shot and killed all five with one shot as fast as it could and my tanks kept pointing at the T34-85 but would not shoot.