Russian tanks suck?

[lordhedgwich]

I am having issues with this game since release. When i play as the soviets my tanks cant spot anything i have to loose 4-5 t34s to take out 1 pzIV. is this a bug with russian tank spotting? Or are they supposed to be this awful. When i play as Germans i have no problems with my tanks spotting. Or problems with my tanks in any other Cm2 game.. If this is a bug will it be patched with the first patch? thanks guys

[H1nd]

and I have heard and seen whine about german tanks not being superior enough in spotting with their "superior" optics. The thing is, there is a lot of luck and chance involved and one player is simply never enough to judge if he is simply unlucky or there is actually a systematic problem = You were most likely unlucky and had a lot of bad spotting in a row. Then again I too have a feeling that I can't spot a darn thing with t-34-85's but even with more additional dudes saying the same means nothing in the statistic "truth" wich we cannot judge since we have no access to real data with enough samples to verify if there is a issue. You might start by doing a test scenario and running it say.. 100 times and we might see some statistically reliable trends and information but just because your tanks have failed to spot germans in few scenarios does not necessarily mean that there is an alarming problem.

[db_zero]

I had a lot of bad results with Russian tanks at first in my h2h games, yet on other games completely trashed my German opponents Panthers, Tigers and other tanks with my T-34's and SU's.

I'm leaning towards the doctrine of KISS (keep it simple, stupid) when playing the Russians. Always use them in mass when possible and keep the objective simple.

Playing the Western armies I don't hesitate to send off a tank or pair of tanks to do something, but with the Russians I send 3 to 6 to do the same task.

I can't say if the spotting is worse for the Russians, but I have had my opponents trash a lot of tanks at range before I could shoot back. I just figured it was more a case of me not knowing how to best employ Russian forces and being patient and learning the best way to do so

[lordhedgwich]

I see what you are saying, but after all the CM scenarios i have played i have never had a problem with any other tanks. thats why i am bringing it up and suggesting it might be a bug..

[Ultradave]

Maybe it's just my usage of them, but my Russian tanks excel at one thing and that's burning after being hit by (usually) one shell.

CLAAAANNGG FOOOOOM! with 4 little crosses floating in the air.

They really are outstanding at this.

It's probably me.

[Splinty]

Keep in mind that the quality and motivation factors of the crew play a big role in spotting ability. I would expect a slower spot/response time from crews who are Regular and below especially if they are nervous or worse for morale.

[MikeyD]

I think it was stated (even in the manual) that you don't play Russians the same way as Americans or Germans. If you use a platoon of tanks in CMBN you'd use a company of tanks in CMRT. I think it was Stalin who said quantity has a quality all its own. I believe in Bagration the Russians had something like a 10-1 advantage in tanks, though many were held in reserve for the exploitation phase.

[Macisle]

If you're talking T34/76s, remember that they have a four-man crew, with the commander doubling as gunner. That has a huge impact on spotting. From the wikipedia entry for the T34, regarding the T34/76:

Individual tank commanders lacked situational awareness due to the poor provision of vision devices and preoccupation with gunnery duties. A tank platoon would seldom be capable of engaging three separate targets, but would tend to focus on a single target selected by the platoon leader. As a result T-34 platoons lost the greater firepower of three independently operating tanks.[54]

The Germans also noted the T-34 was very slow to find and engage targets, while their own tanks could typically get off three rounds for every one fired by the T-34.

With its five-man crew, three-man turret (freeing up the commander), and better gun, the T34/85 is a whole different beast and much improved. Those should be similar to commanding 76mm Shermans.

[lordhedgwich]

If you're talking T34/76s, remember that they have a four-man crew, with the commander doubling as gunner. That has a huge impact on spotting. From the wikipedia entry for the T34, regarding the T34/76:

Individual tank commanders lacked situational awareness due to the poor provision of vision devices and preoccupation with gunnery duties. A tank platoon would seldom be capable of engaging three separate targets, but would tend to focus on a single target selected by the platoon leader. As a result T-34 platoons lost the greater firepower of three independently operating tanks.[54]

The Germans also noted the T-34 was very slow to find and engage targets, while their own tanks could typically get off three rounds for every one fired by the T-34

With its five-man crew, three-man turret (freeing up the commander), and better gun, the T34/85 is a whole different beast and much improved. Those should be similar to commanding 76mm Shermans.

maybe thats what the problem is thank you

[db_zero]

What type of radios if any did Russian tanks at this stage of the war? We're they as well maintained as Western armies? I don't think they were and were they using throat microphones?

Conventional wisdom is by this stage of the war the Red Army was a lot better than it was in 41 to 43.

Still I can also say that in h2h I have seen my opponents Mark IVs beat up on my T34/85 at range.

[MikeyD]

I think most Russian tanks besides command vehicles had radio receivers only. They were basically told to start the attack and events unfolded from there. I'm not claiming that's how CM models it.

[MikeyD]

Oh oh, another thought on this topic. It should be noted Russian tanks were designed for a slightly different task than the Germans. Like the 75mm Sherman it was a lackluster tank fighter but it killed infantry with the best of 'em. Excellent HE shell, canister rounds. T34 needs to be seen in the context of a combined arms force. It should be noted too that T34/76 was 'second best' at this stage of the war. The Russians had largely held back T34/85 from battle before Bagration, building a significant reserve of tanks. On 12 August single T34/85 had the disctinction of KOing three King Tigers the first time the KT took the field in the east.

[db_zero]

I think most Russian tanks besides command vehicles had radio receivers only. They were basically told to start the attack and events unfolded from there. I'm not claiming that's how CM models it.

I knew in 41 most Russian tanks had no radios. If the above was true in 44 I would say Red Army players in RT have too much flexibility. I know I've reacted and executed tactics with Russian tanks that would have required good 2 way communications.

Poor radios would also affect spotting as one tank that spotted an enemy would have no easy way to relay info.

[sburke]

I knew in 41 most Russian tanks had no radios. If the above was true in 44 I would say Red Army players in RT have too much flexibility. I know I've reacted and executed tactics with Russian tanks that would have required good 2 way communications.

Poor radios would also affect spotting as one tank that spotted an enemy would have no easy way to relay info.

That unfortunately is probably unavoidable. With the player in control certain aspects of c2 issues can only be truly duplicated if the player refrains from moving units utilizing info they don't yet have. Same issue with infantry really but more noticeable with armor.

Spotting and lack of radios should be in, but it doesn't much matter if you already moved the unit into a good position based on info it doesn't have.

[Michael Emrys]

Maybe it's just my usage of them, but my Russian tanks excel at one thing and that's burning after being hit by (usually) one shell.

CLAAAANNGG FOOOOOM! with 4 little crosses floating in the air.

They really are outstanding at this.

It's probably me.

Soviet tanks were renowned for spectacular brewups. The HE they used was a different formula than was used in the West. It was more powerful, but it was also less stable and thus more likely to blow if the armor was penetrated. And blow it did.

Michael

[John Kettler]

lordhedgwich,

The problem you're having is but an extension of the overall CM experience.

If you're trying to spot, you will find your men unable to determine whether it is day or night, let alone militarily useful specifics. If the foe seeks to find you, you'll be found and engaged ere you draw breath. The AI, going clear back to the CMBN Demo, may be tactically stupid, but it has descended from Olympus itself when it comes to spotting, being possessed of an unholy ability to find exploitable LOS through the most incredibly difficult intervening terrain--such as big patch of dense woods. It never blinks; never misses a firing opportunity. It isn't distracted or tired. Has no cat crawling over the keyboard or frisky GF or spouse doing enticing, concentration wrecking things. And it certainly never needs to use the head.

(birds chirp, the sun shines)

The tanks advance, their TCs' confident, and with good reason. They fight for the opposition! Watch as, no matter what you do, they drive with impunity through your cover armor arcs, evade your mines and possess a charmed life against all threatening infantry antitank weapons. Naturally, they take some casualties, but they are not enough to stop the Russian tank assault's inexorable drive to victory. Urrah! Urrah pobieda! is the last thing your men hear as the PPSH 41s brrp brrp from on foxhole occupant to the next, amid the wrack and ruin only the all-conquering Red Army can create. And those who evade being ventilated are hacked to pieces by sharpened entrenchment tools. No quarter for the remnants of an SS unit. That's what things look like from the foe's side.

(Cut to your battle experience)

The objective circumstances, to use a Marxist-Leninist military pedagogical term, are the same in all respects except...your opponent has a secret ally, one whom the most intense razvedka has been utterly unable to find or assess.

The attack goes in, carried out in what the Combat Regulations clearly require: "the exact fulfillment of the komandir's intent." The komandir's intent, though, is as wheat before the scythe when it encounters Marshal Murphy. More indefatigable and peripatetic than Rommel at his height; whirling about the battlefield at a pace which would kill a dervish. And yet for all this activity, the good Marshal seems to leave behind something akin to abrasive glue. Things get stuck; connections fail and, despite all the adhesive everywhere you turn, your attack manages to fall apart.

The komandir was busy with his komandir, so you decide to do something which would assuredly get you a free trip by SMERSH to field tribunal, then a penal battalion. You advance one Tank Company and cover its advance from semi-covered positions. Your static tankisti relentlessly looking for a sign, any sign, the hated Hitlerite dogs are present. They see nothing, even through binos held by TCs standing in their turrets, with hatches illegally open.

Frolov's company advances in full assault mode, the tankodesantniki resolutely clinging to their iron steeds, their hearts burning with socialist fervor to kill the fascisti. About that point the battle plan suddenly ceases to work. One of Frolov's tanks suddenly gouts fire and rolls to a stop. The scene is so awful it's best not to describe it. Is it a mine? An antitank gun? A T IV, a T V or T VI. Oh, please not those high numbers. Or any T number for that matter. The top of the head of an overwatching TC in Artemov's company vanishes in a gout of blood, bone and brains. Other shots miss, but are close enough that the overwatch force hastily buttons and has suddenly lost half of its combat potential. At the worst possible time! You pray (not very Communist, but Comrade Stalin can't solve all combat problems) and ask that this be as bad as it gets. Crack! The unmistakeable sound of the high velocity gun (attached to what?) rings out. Another of Frolov's tanks is hit, but neither catches fire nor explodes. The front roller's hit, the track parts under the impact, and the wounded beast abruptly turns sideways and is brought to a halt. The tank riders, now lashed by MG fire from weapon out there, somewhere, leap off and shelter on the friendly side of their former ride. They're pinned down and can't reach their still unlocated tormentor with their pa pa shas.

Unfortunately for your original plan, Frolov went into the fight with only seven T-34/85s. One was killed in an earlier battle, immolating the crew. Another had a transmission failure during the relentless drive toward Poland and was likely lost for days, what with the rate of advance. A third was having electrical problems, and Party workers spoke darkly of sabotage and began eyeing members of the technical element which worked all night to ready two tank companies for battle. Why two? That was all the battalion could muster, and the overwatch force had but six. Not good.

Several more sharp cracks are heard. Earth fountains from shorts, but the terrible metallic clang is heard above the din, and Bog Voiny will have his way here. Before your horrified eyes the tank seems to blossom from within, hurling the tankodesantniki through the air like broken rag dolls, some flaming. And the pride of Nizhniy Tagil is no more, likewise its crew. From a distance, it's hard to believe it ever was a tank. Mortars burst all around Frolov's tanks as the enemy mortarmen try desperately to keep the thundering herd at bay. At least force the tank riders off their mounts and into interlocking MG fires. You have to admire Frolov. Guts and panache. DTs chatter from turrets and bow mounts. One great 85 mm splinter shell after another hurtles forth from his company's cannon. You know how hellishly hot it is in his tank, how hard it is for the loader to keep his footing in the pitching, heaving tank. Onward Frolov! Onward!

Luck favors the bold, and suddenly, victory appears possible, despite already awful losses. Somehow, one of Frolov's shots hits the tow vehicle for an 88 a few hundred meters back from the front lines. Smack in the ammo locker. The tow vehicle disappears, but it's impossible to tell whether the gun and crew remain, but it's comforting to know that even if it lives, it has been defanged. An antitank gun without ammo may look scary, but is useless.

The radio is alive with a blend of frightened chatter, shrieks and calm orders. You assert your authority and get your men sorted out. The 88 is out of the fight, but that other gun won't quit. With all the dust and debris in the air, it's hard to see much of anything in the flailed objective area. What's this? The tankodesantniki are dismounting and charging into battle. Or so you think. A quad 2 cm cannon starts rapid firing from the flank, sweeping the tank riders off tanks like some witch's awful broom. Artemov's on the ball, as through the swirling dust and smoke, he somehow spots the tracers streaming from the newest obstacle to your plan. He can't tell quite where it is, but two volleys of splinter from his shell of a tank company appear to silence the gun.

There may be hope yet. Frolov's force, though in tatters, is nearing the objective. This time the tank riders are leaping off. Those still able to do so. Finally!

The antitank gun, if that's what it is, is either dead or can't bear. But your elation vanishes as that confounded gun begins to range in on the overwatch force. You frantically try to order Artemov out of his now compromised position. Too late! In rapid succession 2nd platoon (Trofimov's, was it?) is lashed. Trofimov's tank is hit. Mercifully, it doesn't explode, but the gun now looks like some perverse form of an elephant trunk. And while you're taking that in, a turret takes wing from the tank next to Trofimov the Helpless. And the blast from that drops half of a sergeant on his thoroughly unmanned crew, causing it to bail. To all intents and purposes, Artemov's company is done for, but it has done its job, beaten down the defenders enough, maybe, to help Frolov carry the day.

Meanwhile, one of Frolov's tanks crashes through a barricade, hits something and upends. and another is marked down by a Faustnik. Hard. Two tanks and a handful of tank riders are on the objective. A bridgehead of sorts? A springboard for the battalion's attack tomorrow.

But as quickly as it began, the dream dies. Foreign devils come rushing forward, faintly visible from your COP. And behind them? A pair of heavily camouflaged Ferdinands, those squat, hard to hit SAUs the tank starved Germans somehow manage to uncannily conjure up when it hurts most.

The fanatical Fascisti who have all but annihilated your depleted battalion will die. That's a certainty. But not today and not at your hand. The regimental komandir, known for eating subordinates alive, is surprisingly understanding, even solicitous.

"I've been monitoring your net, Yuri Ivanovitch Hedgwichkov, and you did all and more anyone could ask. I'll personally ensure the politruk knows how fiercely your battalion fought and will see what I can do for the families of the fallen. When darkness comes we'll send out the razvedchiki and the medic to recover and tend as many of your men as can be found before daylight. Speaking of daylight, at dawn, Katy will wail her enraged tune. The division komandir is unloading a Guards Mortar Regiment on the accursed place, after which our sister regiment will finish what you so bloodily started. Death to the Hitlerites!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Placebo]

When we see the earlier years on the eastern front, I will be expecting the tank platoon flag communications to be fully modelled

[Odin]

When we see the earlier years on the eastern front, I will be expecting the tank platoon flag communications to be fully modelled

I know you were writing this tongue in cheek, but I think it could be done. EG Only command tanks could give an area fire order, and only those tanks in the platoon with LOS on the area would be able to fire on the area (I think something similar could be done for infantry units in CMBN, FI, and RT which could be offered through a new difficulty level to better reflect the problems of co-ordinating WWII infantry fire).

Likewise for the movement of early war Soviet tanks, unless a crew is panicked and trying to get out of harmsway, tanks cannot be manoeuvred beyond short distances (say 30 metres max) without a platoon movement order coming from the command tank which brings about the movement of the whole platoon.

[sburke]

I know you were writing this tongue in cheek, but I think it could be done. EG Only command tanks could give an area fire order, and only those tanks in the platoon with LOS on the area would be able to fire on the area (I think something similar could be done for infantry units in CMBN, FI, and RT which could be offered through a new difficulty level to better reflect the problems of co-ordinating WWII infantry fire).

Likewise for the movement of early war Soviet tanks, unless a crew is panicked and trying to get out of harmsway, tanks cannot be manoeuvred beyond short distances (say 30 metres max) without a platoon movement order coming from the command tank which brings about the movement of the whole platoon.

I understand the intent, but am wary of something that requires too much coordination as the AI will just fall apart.

[Melchior]

Oh oh, another thought on this topic. It should be noted Russian tanks were designed for a slightly different task than the Germans. Like the 75mm Sherman it was a lackluster tank fighter but it killed infantry with the best of 'em. Excellent HE shell, canister rounds. T34 needs to be seen in the context of a combined arms force. It should be noted too that T34/76 was 'second best' at this stage of the war. The Russians had largely held back T34/85 from battle before Bagration, building a significant reserve of tanks. On 12 August single T34/85 had the disctinction of KOing three King Tigers the first time the KT took the field in the east.

The T34's gun in 1941 was enough to kill about 99% of the tanks it could possibly run into anyway. Fact is the T34 was pre-Barbarossa design of only around 24-26 tons. What they got out of a chassis that should have been retired to secondary duties sometime in 1943 was impressive. The nature of the war though meant that no opportunity could be passed up because a fancy new tank model was working its way into the lines. Delays don't win the war. Look what happened to Citadel because Hitler wanted the Panzer Divisions to reequip with Panthers and Tigers first.

[Michael Emrys]

Look what happened to Citadel because Hitler wanted the Panzer Divisions to reequip with Panthers and Tigers first.

Divisions? I thought that since there were so few Tigers and Panthers (at that point in time) that they were not assigned to divisions but held in independent battalions that were assigned to corps. Is that not so?

Michael

[Melchior]

The Tiger definitely, the Panther was supposed to be equipping at least half of a Panzer Division's armor component by the middle of 1943. I've never heard of them being grouped into independent battalions since the Panther was supposed to be the Panzer IV's replacement and was usually assigned on the Regimental or at least Company level.

I'd also heard Hitler would have preferred to simply not reinforce any front line unit at all in 1943. He wanted to have entirely new formations built from scratch and standardized with all the wunderwaffe uber tech instead of working with what the Heer still had. Guderian talked him out of the first part I presume and he still more or less got his way by prioritizing the Waffen SS for resupply.

[Oddball-47]

I am having issues with this game since release. When i play as the soviets my tanks cant spot anything i have to loose 4-5 t34s to take out 1 pzIV. is this a bug with russian tank spotting?

Lord Hedgwich, I recently played a PBEM game as the Russians with T34/85s and Su76s for armor. I lost about 20 tanks/SPGs to German armor at ranges of about 1200 yards tops and none of my tanks/SPGs could even see what was tearing into them so badly.

It mattered not if they were buttoned or unbuttoned. To be honest, I found

it quite frustrating. As to the "why" behind it, I've not a clue.

Regards, Oddball CAF

[Heirloom_Tomato]

I am playing a pbem at the moment as the Russians and have taken out at least 5 panzer IV's without any losses to my own tanks. The ranges are all 1000 meter plus andI have the T-34/85. Spotting has been pretty decent.

[lordhedgwich]

I just played another scenario and i have to say the T-34/85s were way better at spotting than those damn 76s, but they are still lacking compared to the german tanks imo