What is the hardest Combat Mission...Mission?

[AttorneyAtWar]

The title says it all!

Personally the hardest mission for me (and one I have never beaten) is that bridge crossing in the courage and fortitude mission which is the second one in the campaign I believe...

[jhmorneau]

"School of hard knocks", I think it was called. And I agree it was one of the hardest I've played so far. As a matter of fact I eventually got a minor victory on this battle but there was so much allied blood spilled that it did not taste like a victory at all...

[Doug Williams]

Try playing the CMFI/GL scenario Kiwi Soldiers as the NZers.

It's a tiny scenario so should only take you a few minutes to lose.

[Vinnart]

“School of Hard Knocks”. Perhaps I will try playing it again, but it would mean having to play the campaign again to get to it. I think it would have made a better single mission rather than a campaign one. It looked to me that the map was set up to be un-winnable, and is one of the only missions I have played where I did not seize all objectives. I captured the bridge, but the lead tank hit a mine on the other side. All attempts to sweep the other side of bridge from mines just got ate up by the insane amount of artillery, and MGs the Germans get. Artillery all through out the mission like an endless supply. That along with a choke point out in the open with very little cover, and very poor visibility I chose to go no further than capturing the bridge vs. what looked like the potential of losing the whole force so early in the campaign. Overall I think the mission was over done too much in the defenders favor. The next mission “University of Hard Knocks” seemed more balanced, and I liked it much better.

[TheVulture]

Actually I found "Razorback Ridge" later in the same campaign to be harder than "School of Hard Knocks", although in a very different way. 'School' requires you to accept a lot of casualties and push through regardless. 'Razorback' is much less of a shooting fest, and more about trying to take a lot of annoying small individual German positions in very close terrain. It is harder, although less psychologically intimidating IMHO.

[mjkerner]

“School of Hard Knocks”. Perhaps I will try playing it again, but it would mean having to play the campaign again to get to it. I think it would have made a better single mission rather than a campaign one. It looked to me that the map was set up to be un-winnable, and is one of the only missions I have played where I did not seize all objectives. I captured the bridge, but the lead tank hit a mine on the other side. All attempts to sweep the other side of bridge from mines just got ate up by the insane amount of artillery, and MGs the Germans get. Artillery all through out the mission like an endless supply. That along with a choke point out in the open with very little cover, and very poor visibility I chose to go no further than capturing the bridge vs. what looked like the potential of losing the whole force so early in the campaign. Overall I think the mission was over done too much in the defenders favor. The next mission “University of Hard Knocks” seemed more balanced, and I liked it much better.

Hey Vin, Mad Mike's Scenario Organizer Mod will extract campaign scenarios so you can play them as stand-alones. If you want Hard Knocks scenario, give me a shout and I can email it.

[Col Deadmarsh]

“School of Hard Knocks”. Perhaps I will try playing it again, but it would mean having to play the campaign again to get to it. I think it would have made a better single mission rather than a campaign one. It looked to me that the map was set up to be un-winnable, and is one of the only missions I have played where I did not seize all objectives. I captured the bridge, but the lead tank hit a mine on the other side. All attempts to sweep the other side of bridge from mines just got ate up by the insane amount of artillery, and MGs the Germans get. Artillery all through out the mission like an endless supply. That along with a choke point out in the open with very little cover, and very poor visibility I chose to go no further than capturing the bridge vs. what looked like the potential of losing the whole force so early in the campaign. Overall I think the mission was over done too much in the defenders favor. The next mission “University of Hard Knocks” seemed more balanced, and I liked it much better.

What campaign is this from?

[Erwin]

"Courage and Fortitude" campaign. IIRC "School of Hard Knocks" was mission #2, and mission #1 was fairly easy.

One of the MOST enjoyable CMBN scenarios I have played was the final mission in the "Courage and Fortitude" campaign. You had a Battalion of infantry and more than a company of armor plus dozens of other AFV's, arty... all the toys... doing a US assault on a town.

If you like large scenarios that one is a must.

[Vinnart]

Hey Vin, Mad Mike's Scenario Organizer Mod will extract campaign scenarios so you can play them as stand-alones. If you want Hard Knocks scenario, give me a shout and I can email it.

Thanks Mark, I’ll keep it in mind. When I play single missions sometimes I do some experimenting with tactics with do overs, but when I play campaigns I will only reload a turn if the AI does some very stupid path finding. I find this keeps single play feeling more like PBEM play. You only get one shot at it as in reality. Right now though I have new fish to fry. Any CM time has been dedicated to getting through the single play in CMFI with , and have no desire at the moment to play it again. I’m sure I would do much better as I know what to expect, know enemy positions, and would be more willing to cost more casualties.

[sfhand]

“School of Hard Knocks”. Perhaps I will try playing it again, but it would mean having to play the campaign again to get to it...

You don't have to play the campaign again to get to it... look for:

CMBN_Scen_Organiser_v0.22 (I don't know if there is an updated version but this will work with the campaigns shipped with the base game at least, I suspect it will work with later campaigns but I haven't tried)

in the Repository.

Again, kudos and thanks to Mad Mike for this little beauty

edit: I guess I should have read the entire thread prior to posting... good call mjkerner

[Erwin]

In that, definitely take a look at the final mission in "Courage and Fortitude". It's terrific.

[Mad Mike]

You don't have to play the campaign again to get to it... look for:

CMBN_Scen_Organiser_v0.22 (I don't know if there is an updated version but this will work with the campaigns shipped with the base game at least, I suspect it will work with later campaigns but I haven't tried)

in the Repository.

Again, kudos and thanks to Mad Mike for this little beauty

edit: I guess I should have read the entire thread prior to posting... good call mjkerner

I renamed the tool, the Scen_Organiser is the old variant.

For the new tool, CMx2 ScAnCaDe (Scenario Analyser and Campaign Decompiler), see the link in my signature (I'm not uploading to the repository anymore).

It's an improved version which corrects quite some minor and major shortcomings.

[rocketman]

I renamed the tool, the Scen_Organiser is the old variant.

For the new tool, CMx2 ScAnCaDe (Scenario Analyser and Campaign Decompiler), see the link in my signature (I'm not uploading to the repository anymore).

It's an improved version which corrects quite some minor and major shortcomings.

Downloaded it - looks like a great tool. Especially for breaking up campaign-files.

How do "The Road to Montebourg", "The Scottish Corridor" and "Courage and Fortitude" play after the patches? Are some scenarios too hard with regards to boosted MG:s and harder spotting for tanks and so on?

[aleader]

Wow, funny this thread came up as I'm trying to get through the 'School of Hard Knocks' mission in the campaign. Playing it through from an early save for the 3rd time now. There was a bug I ran into in this mission when CMBN first came out and I never could finish it. I think subsequent patches have made MG fire far more brutal than the original release, but this battle must not have been re-balanced. I didn't realize they lowered tank spotting, but it's apparent in this battle that tanks have a real hard time seeing anything buttoned up. Unbuttoned is suicide in this one. Tanks panic right away, even without casualties.

There's also an issue with not being able to select units on or around the bridge. The only way I've been able to do it is by using the Shift-select and hope to get the right unit. Armchair General actually has a training video of this battle on youtube:

Of course, he makes it look easy, and I think it was pre-patch. My infantry get tired crossing the bridge, suppressed instantly by any incoming fire, and hammered by the constant arty and mortar fire. There must be several TRPs for the germans because it seems that they can call strikes in within 1 min or so of my units showing up. Add in AT guns with huge FOV, and it is a brutal mission. By the time my tanks get over the bridge (two of which were immobilized last time by mines on each side) they're out of HE rounds too. I think you need to use the engineers to 'blast' the ground on both sides to destroy the AT mines. It seems you hit them sometimes and injure you engineers when blasting open the barbed wire. If anyone has any tips, I'm open to suggestions. Gonna give it another go tonight...

[Sergei]

If anyone has any tips, I'm open to suggestions. Gonna give it another go tonight...

My suggestion is to admit that it is a Kobayashi Maru scenario, and hit ceasefire. This battle is a frontal assault straight from the move - it's a very demanding task, nearly suicidal in real life. If you hit ceasefire you will be given another go, this time with more preparation.

It can be done though - you have plenty of firepower to suppress enemies with and smoke provides concealment, but you can't avoid casualties in the crossing.

[Erwin]

IIRC if smoke conceals a location the AI cannot target it with arty. It's pretty obvious where the enemy spotters must be. Try bombarding and/or smoking that location (and even smoking your advance over the bridge).

Also IIRC one doesn't actually need all the units one is given, so keep most back in safe locations until the way over the bridge is open and the enemy has too many targets on their side of the river to bombard everything.

[YankeeDog]

@aleader:

SPOILER: School of Hard Knocks

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..

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I've played through this battle both before and after the v2.0 improvements and I think it's actually easier after the 2.0 improvements. Remember, the increases to machine gun suppression work both ways: they make machine gun fire from the defenders more dangerous, but they also make it easier to suppress the defenders with machine gun fire.

Send scout teams forward to draw fire, making maximum use of available cover. Make sure to have teams with binos in good observation positions to spot whatever shoots at your scout teams. You should be able to get at least "?" spots to enemy infantry positions.

If you analyze the terrain closely, you'll find that there are actually positions you can put your tanks in which allow them to area fire on the enemy infantry positions, without engaging the enemy AT guns. Add to your tank MGs the suppressive fire from your M1919 and M1917 HMGs and you can basically overwhelm the defense with suppressive MG fire, freeing your rifle infantry up to move quickly across the bridge and past the danger area of the TRPs before the mortar shells actually start to fall. Note that the river itself actually provides defilade that you can use to hide your infantry from the enemy, and the Computer AI will not target artillery at an enemy it can't actually see -- it's not smart enough to "know" that an enemy it saw running into a small defile is probably still there.

Generally, don't waste your limited tank HE shells on "?" targets -- maybe a few shells here and there if a certain unit is particularly difficult to suppress, but in general save the HE for spotted targets and especially high-value targets like AT guns and bunkers. MG fire will keep the enemy infantry heads-down just fine.

It's also not that hard to get the enemy AT guns to reveal themselves by shooting at your infantry, and/or taking poor percentage shots at your tanks (hull down, long range). Once they do this, you have plenty of artillery with which to take them out.

You don't really need to worry about getting your tanks across the bridge; they can lend fire support to the infantry just fine without crossing. But if you want to get them across, it is possible to destroy the mines by targeting the barbed wire with demo charges from your engineers.

Fundamentally, this is a pretty straightforward FIRE and maneuver battle. I Put "FIRE" in all caps for a reason. Figure out which of your units are "ammo deep", and keep them shooting -- if one of your MGs isn't shooting, it's not contributing. You have time. You have bullets. Use 'em.

EDIT to add: Since I see several comments regarding the use of smoke, FYI, I didn't use smoke at all in this mission. The problem with smoke it that it also works both ways -- it blocks enemy LOF on your maneuver element, but if you're not careful it also blocks the LOF of your overwatch. And smoke is temporary; if you're not careful it dissipates while you're still maneuvering and you get caught in the open. I found it easier to just shoot the crap out the enemy and then maneuver. But I'm sure there are ways smoke could be used very effectively in this battle, if you're careful about where and when you place the smoke screen, and maximize the maneuver window it gives you. It's just not my style.

[womble]

Moar spoilers...

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If you do want to use smoke to evade the TRPs, don't forget that your tanks have both main gun and smoke discharger smoke. When I did it, having gotten rid of/evaded the mines at the bridge, and mortared the ATGs to death, I leapfrogged Shermans up the road behind smoke discharger curtains, accompanied by a company of infantry.

It's important, when you're using your support teams (MGs and mortars) to be willing to skedaddle at a moment's notice when you see spotting rounds coming in. You lose some continuity of supporting fires, but it's better to be able to resume than to lose the fires for the rest of the scenario and any others until you get reinforcements.

It also used to be entirely possible to cross the river only with tanks and your engineers, and keep every other unit in defilade behind the start line. Whether the toning down of tank spotting has changed that to an unwise tactic, I don't know. I think there are few enough positions where ManPAT can hide that you could just use the old "lead broom" to sweep them out from beyond effective tube range, but it'd be more of a gamble than it used to be, if you miss one.

[bodkin]

Actually I found "Razorback Ridge" later in the same campaign to be harder than "School of Hard Knocks", although in a very different way. 'School' requires you to accept a lot of casualties and push through regardless. 'Razorback' is much less of a shooting fest, and more about trying to take a lot of annoying small individual German positions in very close terrain. It is harder, although less psychologically intimidating IMHO.

This was a nightmare, the Germans had a perfect view of any of your troop movements and didn't spare the ammo letting you know.

[aleader]

First, the word 'easy' should never be used to describe this scenario, because it's not. Maybe if you managed to get a lucky roll of the dice and your mortars manage to take out the AT guns early. My mortars can't seem to hit them very often even with direct LOS. Also, visibility changes as the battle goes on, so there are eventually no 'hidden' spots from the AT guns where you can still provide accurate fire. At least, none that I've found in 4 plays through it now. One AT gun seems to move each time too (the AI must be able to place one?).

The biggest issue (obviously) is getting across the bridge without having everyone pinned by fire. Nothing on your side can reach the MG bunkers with suppressive fire until about the 20th turn, which means you have to either put smoke in front of them to cross, or have your tanks move up and try to destroy them. I've found that the arty is totally inadequate for knocking out anything on that hill.

In my last play, a single SMG was able to pin my squad of Engineers with one burst, which was immediately followed in less than one turn by an ultra-accurate mortar barrage that destroyed them w/o having the chance to blow anything. You also need to be careful with placing the engineers so they actually blow the barbed wire and not the walls beside them, which they do with frustrating frequency in this battle. They also run directly into fire or onto mines after they've blown the wrong thing. Why don't they stay put!

You also have to use move commands or give pauses to get your infantry to the bridge without tiring them out, which gives the AI plenty of time to have a barrage waiting at the bridge.

Haven't been able to locate the spotters yet, although I seem to remember them on the hill in one of the trenches from my playthrough a year or so ago. Smoke or a lucky arty hit is all that could slow them.

I'd love it if a few others could play through this again with the 2.12 patch and see what your results are. I think if you can win in this one, you shouldn't find anything else difficult!

[Erwin]

"I've found that the arty is totally inadequate for knocking out anything on that hill."

But, arty will at least suppress (the FO's esp.) and provide dust which is as good as smoke, although maybe not as long-lasting... which is useful.

Also, you can get your inf fairly close to the bridge and HIDE them (safely) for a couple turns - so they start "rested" for the final run to the bridge and the defilade offered by the river bank.

[sburke]

At least, none that I've found in 4 plays through it now. One AT gun seems to move each time too (the AI must be able to place one?).

I haven't examined the scenario, but you can have different placement depending on which of 5 possible AI plans is in effect when you launch the scenario.

[A Canadian Cat]

There's also an issue with not being able to select units on or around the bridge. The only way I've been able to do it is by using the Shift-select and hope to get the right unit.

There is a problem with an old workaround option in the game that is there for older ATI card drivers but no longer needed for the new ones. Check out this post:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1463852&postcount=14

If that does not help you, one workaround that has served me well is to move the camera up higher and point it straight or nearly straight down. Now selection will work better for units around bridges. But really once I turned off that unneeded option for the old ATI drivers my problems with selection and way points around bridges are gone.

[womble]

I've found that the arty is totally inadequate for knocking out anything on that hill.

Really? I found it utterly devastated the defenders. But then I used 2 whole modules of 105s.

In my last play, a single SMG was able to pin my squad of Engineers with one burst...

One of the things that I found you have to appreciate is that the first turns are in near-darkness, and so there's nothing in visual range of the bridge to pin your engineers while they happily clear away the wire (and any sympathetic mines). Of course, if you rush down there too fast, you get splashed by the pre-planned barrage...

...which was immediately followed in less than one turn by an ultra-accurate mortar barrage...

That mortar barrage was inbound before the pin, even with a TRP, so they were already destroyed. Only question was whether the pin stopped them blowing anything up. Again, though, if you get on the bridge in the pre-light turns, you'll not suffer because the AI won't shoot unless it can see something with one of its elements, and turns 2-5 (or at least "long enough for the engineers to do their work") are too dark for any AI units to see onto the bridge. If you shilly-shally about until it's light, you're screwed unless you use smoke.

...need to be careful with placing the engineers so they actually blow the barbed wire and not the walls beside them, which they do with frustrating frequency in this battle. They also run directly into fire or onto mines after they've blown the wrong thing. Why don't they stay put!

That just takes practice with using engineers. Keeping the suicidal bunnies from getting themselves shot up is its own art form.

You also have to use move commands or give pauses to get your infantry to the bridge without tiring them out, which gives the AI plenty of time to have a barrage waiting at the bridge.

The AI just drops its mortars when it sees something within range of the TRP. It doesn't think "Oh, here come some more dogfaces, I'll have some shells waiting for them." Those are the shells it fired at the last targets. It is possible to dash through in the gaps.

[aleader]

There is a problem with an old workaround option in the game that is there for older ATI card drivers but no longer needed for the new ones. Check out this post:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1463852&postcount=14

If that does not help you, one workaround that has served me well is to move the camera up higher and point it straight or nearly straight down. Now selection will work better for units around bridges. But really once I turned off that unneeded option for the old ATI drivers my problems with selection and way points around bridges are gone.

Thanks. I have a Radeon 6755 G2 card (laptop) with the newest drivers. Checked and it was set to 'on'. It must have switched to on when I applied the last patch, because it was off. I'll check to see if it helps.