More campaigns!

[Erwin]

"They'd be taking the risk of spending a lot of treasure to make a pack of stuff with the expectation of selling it, when the content they would be selling is freely copiable..."

Yes, that is the big problem. Otherwise, if we have to pay $10 for upgrades, it would definitely be worth paying (say) $20 for a well-made campaign pack of at least 5 campaigns of at least 5 scenarios each.

There seems to be tons of user-made scenarios available for all the WW2 CM games now. So, Campaigns is where the shortage is. Perhaps BF could put their emphasis on extra Campaigns being made for each game release and let scenarios be taken care of by users(?)

[Mord]

I don't understand why somebody would complain about having to pay for that....

People were bitching about paying 10 bucks for keeping their games upgraded to the latest features NOW...waiting ten years for another game set in the same theater and then paying full price, is fine though. You have to LOVE that logic.

As far as what you guys are saying about scenario packs and DRM; really all they'd have to do is give the scenario pack scenarios a different file name extension and the appropriate code to allow it to work.

Mord.

[Glubokii Boy]

People were bitching about paying 10 bucks for keeping their games upgraded to the latest features NOW...waiting ten years for another game set in the same theater and then paying full price, is fine though. You have to LOVE that logic..

I'm sorry ! but i don't understand what you mean with this ? Wait what 10 years ? Who said anything about paying FULL PRICE ?

The suggestions have been to be able to buy scenariopacks at a far lower price than the price of a full module or a new basegame.

Hopefully this could be achived in less then 10 years...

[Mord]

You said you didn't understand why people would complain about paying for scenarios.

It was over ten years from when CMBO was made and BFC returned to France in CMBN. BFC announced that that wouldn't have to happen again because they are now doing an upgrade option for 10 dollars, so your game always stays as fresh as the latest release (a CM junkie's wetdream). Some people bitched about it. So my point was they'd rather wait another ten years and pay full price then pay a measly ten bucks every year or so and have the latest version of the engine running with all the new features. IF they bitched about THAT they'll bitch about having to pay for a scenario pack.

Mord.

[Glubokii Boy]

Ok...I understand your point now... and i would have to agree that complaining about that is nothing else then 'bitching'.

I'm in no way a high-income guy but to me 10 dollars is close to nothing. Not many things in life are free and if you like something you usually have to pay for it.

When BF sold us CMBN they never promised us a lifetime of upgrades for free. They sold us CMBN (with continues support regarding bug-fixes). This upgrade option is a bonus and they are perfectly in their rights to charge us a small fee for it (if we want it).

In a simular way i'm sure the game editor was never really meant for a few people to spend hundreds of hours to make campaigns for other people to play and then 'give them away'..

Thoose people that are willing to spend that amount of time to make something for others to enjoy should get paid...that being BF or some member of the comunity does not matter.

Making a scenario or two and posting them in the repository for free is one thing but making a hole campaign or a large set of scenarios should be rewarded by some sort of

salery.

[Mr.X]

I totally agree with your last sentence RepsolCBR...but it seems to me as if BF does not care about such discussions like this one...

[sburke]

In a simular way i'm sure the game editor was never really meant for a few people to spend hundreds of hours to make campaigns for other people to play and then 'give them away'..

Thoose people that are willing to spend that amount of time to make something for others to enjoy should get paid...that being BF or some member of the comunity does not matter.

Making a scenario or two and posting them in the repository for free is one thing but making a hole campaign or a large set of scenarios should be rewarded by some sort of

salery.

not quite, the editor was made so that ANYONE could spend time making a campaign or scenario. I really think folks need to stop looking at this as being impossibly hard. It isn't. If you are trying to do something strictly historical, yeah that may be hundreds of hours, but for a truly fictional campaign I don't think one needs to look at this as some insurmountable mountain. As long as we leave it to a few it won't matter if folks get paid or not, they are still only going to generate so many. If you don't try you will never learn, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I am not good enough so I won't try so I can never learn and am therefore not good enough.

[kohlenklau]

back in CMAK, one thing that was a wild card for playing your own scenarios was the percentage chance of arrival of an enemy reinforcement. I would dial that baby down to 1% and have a tiger possibly show up or a flakvierling or somesuch. Plus I am forgetful and would often not exactly recall what/when/where I had coming as the enemy force. Oscar winners? no. But I did enjoy many an evening playing my own KG Peiper Bulge attack on Stavelot. I didn't even put in a briefing. Just the title and would make changes and save as Title 1 Title 2, Title 3, pretty soon I had so many variations (hey, isn't that a dirty story magazine?) it was as if someone else wrote it and did provide some level of FOW/surprise.

[Glubokii Boy]

I really think folks need to stop looking at this as being impossibly hard. It isn't.

I agree with this.

A number of months ago i decided to put an effort in to try and learn the editor and start making scenarios.

I made a few and posted them in the repository. They may not be as good as the ones that ship with the modules but going by the comments in the repository atleast some people enjoyed playing them.

Those scenarios were not 'impossibly hard' to make...

I'm working on an other one now...

From my limited experince with the editor i would guess that the lack of a good triggersystem is the number one reason why many people are reluctant to start making scenarios.

This 'first turn WEGO' requirement of setting up the AI defences and planing the entire AI defence for maybe and hour long battle 'in one turn' is not very user friendly.

I know it has been discussed many times before but i'm sure that once we get a working triggersystem scenario design from the community will explode.

[Mr.X]

I always hear: "It isn't hard to create a campaign" but actually I haven't seen any user-made one until today. Only great words...And I want to see the reaction of the community, if someone presents a non-historical campaign which has been built in a few hours...:-)

Regards

Frank

[sburke]

I always hear: "It isn't hard to create a campaign" but actually I haven't seen any user-made one until today. Only great words...And I want to see the reaction of the community, if someone presents a non-historical campaign which has been built in a few hours...:-)

Regards

Frank

I'm working on one, but you may not see it for a bit.

I'll try to keep some type of record as to the process to give folks some idea of what it took me (a noobie) to make my first campaign. Note I have done 4 scenarios- 1 for GL and 3 for MG. Those are the only scenarios I have ever done so if you don't think you can do one or they are ridiculously hard, nope. Now are the ones I did as good as some others work. Hell no, but from the reception so far they aren't too bad either.

In some ways a campaign has aspects that are easier. In a scenario folks are always asking if it is playable by both sides, is it playable HTH etc and the expectation is somehow you can create one where it is equally balanced for all those.. ha good luck. A Campaign however can only be played one way and in a sense this reduces the overhead. Now your issue is creating an interesting storyline and a situation where your actions matter without becoming impossible if you suffer too many casualties early or too easy by constantly giving the player too much additional support.... that I think is where our long term campaign makers have a better feel for design.

It is a fair question though Frank so I am going to try and put my money where my mouth is. Wish me luck.

[Erwin]

Regarding paying for a Campaign Pack, perhaps that could be part of an upgrade package that we already pay $10 for... except how about the upgrade costing (say) $20 if it included some campaigns?

If the campaigns were part of an upgrade pack then presumably the campaign scenarios could be made so that they would not work with the previous version of the game. And one can't copy and swap upgrades. So, BF would be getting a secured/guaranteed payment for making those extra campaigns from everyone who bought the upgrade - and that wold be the vast majority of us.

There are some mediocre campaigns out there and some xnt ones. The xnt campaigns I recall had their scenarios have relationships to each other (storyline) with branching options and also included logistics issues like ammo use discipline/economy, reinforcements and resupply. Getting that balance just right seems very complex, and am not surprised that xnt campaigns can take 3+ months (or a lot longer) to develop and test.

Right now there seems to be an abundance of scenarios available. It's the paucity of campaigns that is apparent (for those of us that prefer campaigns to standalone scenarios).

[Skwabie]

Actually I'm wondering if it's possible to ask some of the campaign makers to provide us the core unit file.

This way the force on both sides can be adjusted. You can fight with/against different units from the original campaign and can generate a brand new experience.

I'm thinking Conrath's counterattack, The fleeting moment, Panzer Marsch (from BN) and a moment in time. These have core units on the OPFOR side so just extracting the scenarios, make a new core and re-packing the camp is not practical.

[sburke]

While on the subject, hey Winkelried any update? This one is eagerly awaited.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=108025

[Mr.X]

@sburke: I don´t want to be misunderstood with my comments. I would be really very glad, if you for example would release a campaign for CMBN or CMFI.... because I love playing campaigns. But how many guys here have announced to create huge/fantastic campaigns? And the results? I remember titles like Montelimar, Carillon Nose etc. etc...The reason for these sad results is: IT IS too much effort to create such campaigns and most of them, who try to get it, will fail sooner or later --- not least, because there are much more important things in real life than sitting in front of a PC and building CM-stuff

And that´s the reason for my opinion, campaigns should be created in some kind of "professional" way by designers, who get at least a small salary for doing this.

Regards

Frank

[Mr.X]

Another point is, that some of the few guys, who keep the "designing area" alive, aren´t able to work with the great stuff, they get from BF. When CMBN was released, some guys wanted to mod it to the Italian Theatre or even to the Pacific, when CMFI was released, some guys wanted to mod it to the Bulge and when oneday CM-Battle for the Venus will be released, some guys will mod it to Battle for the Mars There are so many possibilities to create wonderful stuff for Gustav-Line for example. From July 1943 to July 1944...summer...winter...Why is it necessary to make half-hearted Bulge-stuff instead? I don´t understand the world

Regards

Frank

[Skwabie]

The reason for these sad results is: IT IS too much effort to create such campaigns and most of them, who try to get it, will fail sooner or later --- not least, because there are much more important things in real life than sitting in front of a PC and building CM-stuff

And that´s the reason for my opinion, campaigns should be created in some kind of "professional" way by designers, who get at least a small salary for doing this.

Yes straight to the point Mr. X... guess tis what i was trying to say at the start but not that well expressed

another point is, if the mission editor is easier to use, it would make things better. But obviously it is a long shot at best.

[kohlenklau]

Mr. X/Frank,

I didn't like that "half-hearted" comment about someone's efforts to make some Bulge scenarios. In my opinion, that kind of criticism is often what stops beginners from cranking out a scenario which might be a hidden gem. It wasn't necessary for Los to make those scenarios. I see that he did it as a memorial to the anniversary of the Bulge and a tip of the hat to some other bubbas who created the mod. I liked the scenarios.

I have a love-hate relationship with the labors of making scenarios, campaigns and mods. Do we have more important things to do? Of course. Right now, I gotta log off and go to my day job. Hard to play CM if I can't pay the electric bill.

You've a right to your opinion but I find it crass.

But thanks for the great idea about modding Battle for Mars. I will round up the wagons and get crackin' with some other bubbas. mjkerner! Can you mod Venusian yellow sulfur terrain to the Martian iron-oxide red color? We need screenshots and a new thread!

[Los]

I think we can mod the Italians to make them into the Green Men. Perhaps a simple new layer can be applied to the Germans to make them the red men.

[Sixxkiller]

I love BFC customers. Eventually you all find something you think is an absolute must and kick the door in and go full tactical.

[easytarget]

This thread discussing whether customers have an obligation to create content for the games they pay for is text book Stockholm syndrome.

[JonS]

This thread discussing whether customers have an obligation to create content for the games they pay for is text book Stockholm syndrome.

There's no obligation, although every customer who purchased CM does have a fully functional scenario editor.

And, just as there is no obligation on customers to create scenarios, there is no obligation on BFC to create additional content either. You have been provided all the tools you need. If you actually want more content, it's no good demanding other people create it for you. The responsibility to create it is yours.

[Los]

I guess if people want some actions designed perhaps one could start a request thread for missions and we can consider designing them.

I'll just point out that one has to be inspired on the scenario/mission they are designing as its actually a lot of work. Given that the Pacific and Bulge interest me and that it is the time of year when the Bulge was fought I am motivated to work on those subjects. Also I see that the mod designers put a tremendous amount of effort into this very meticulous work and I think rewarding them by using their work is a way to say thank you.

E.g. If someone said today that they wanted to make a Crete module, I would pitch in 100% on that effort from a map scenario side if things. (Hint hint Broadsword and others).

Los

[Childress]

Another point is, that some of the few guys, who keep the "designing area" alive, aren´t able to work with the great stuff, they get from BF. When CMBN was released, some guys wanted to mod it to the Italian Theatre or even to the Pacific, when CMFI was released, some guys wanted to mod it to the Bulge and when oneday CM-Battle for the Venus will be released, some guys will mod it to Battle for the Mars There are so many possibilities to create wonderful stuff for Gustav-Line for example. From July 1943 to July 1944...summer...winter...Why is it necessary to make half-hearted Bulge-stuff instead? I don´t understand the world

Surely you're not suggesting there's a cross-dressing impulse in evidence here?

[kohlenklau]

The world is easy to understand to me. You take what is available and try and get what you really want. You don't have to just sit and play only the boot of Italy. I recall it was a total shock that CMFI came out. Who was screaming for the Italian theater? Maybe the guy who was modding CMBN into Italy I now recall! I guess he had a dream come true.

I always wanted to play in the Ardennes. Way back when CMAK came out I modded it for myself to be able to play solitaire some Bastogne and KG Peiper type battles. If CM Bulge had just come out, I personally would not try and make it into say Monte Cassino. Somebody else might and that is fine by me. I would also like to play some DAK/Rommel battles. That would be fun to mod if we could get early war British tanks.

People that want to fight in Tunisia or Crete and decide to take on the modding effort.... I see that as totally understandable. It is sad but true that not everyone shares the dream and maybe the mod only gets a small number of downloads and inevitably the mod gathers dust and drifts slowly towards the bottom of the forum thread list with each day not another post... <violin music now, possibly the theme to Shindler's List...>

Hey, how about the games are offered without the scenario editor and it is cheaper but BUT BUT you cannot download free stuff from the repository. Some kind of key technology. You can only buy $$$$ the professional stuff. No mod tools, no rez explode.

Some kind of Orwellian nightmare to me...

I will now depart and go make some maps and scenarios and maybe mod a vehicle.

I try not to be half-hearted. Half-drunk, is an entirely different matter.