c3k Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 "No poor bastard ever won a war dying for his country. He won it by having the other poor dumb bastard die for his" – Patton. I think Patton may be on to something here Chasing after “Moby Mill” as clever, and funny as that call sign is may not be the way to go at this point Ken. Perhaps a more sneaky ambush mode, while getting a strong hold on the town would be a bit more productive. Feeding failure will only produce more failure says uncle Sun Tzu. Since there were no objectives on the allied side for Bil to capture I thought the town was supposed to be the main objective. I never inderstood why you were pushing for the intersections in the first place. Shape the battlefield and draw him in close, and play to your strengths or this may not be a happy ending for you. All the pink paint rounds in the world won’t save you now pal Ok Michael, I’ll upload this if you insist. Very nice. Intersections: I've had objectives turned off, but there are a total of 5 on this map. They are Town Center, 3 intersections (forming a triangle, the apex is behind the windmill), and an errant one in Bil's setup zone. So, 4 of 5 are basically in Bil's backfield. I pushed towards the Windmill for several (not very good) reasons. My biggest one was, well, because it's there. I could then spin a web of tactical reasons supporting that move, but I won't insult your intelligence by doing so. Do I mind that No. 4 platoon is being, literally, shredded in that attempt? Not at all! They are MINE. This what I want them to do. Let them eat cake. Battle "management": gamewise, I knew I'd have a tough time with capturing the objectives. It's a meeting engagement and he's sitting on 4 of 5 objectives. Sheesh. (We agreed the "errant" objective inside his setup zone would be untouched. Shrug. Perhaps if it has no one inside it, it won't count. We'll see. Bil also offered to restart and adjust the map. I thought it best to continue.) Back to the management aspect: I would, in all seriousness, after finding out that I faced a fully mechanized foe, have pulled back, leaving just a few teams out, and forced him to hunt me down. But where's the fun in that? "Turn 72: My men continue to HIDE. Bil is conducting a search." Plus, this way I get to find out what my men are made of, don't I? Not that I'm throwing the game for the sake of "fun". Not at all. I have most of a battalion of Para's. I've been assigned the objective of taking some intersections and a town. We can imagine that HQ knew of the impending German attack, mechanized, down the road, and wanted my men to take the intersections to deny the Germans movement. Perhaps my battalion is protecting Eisenhower's favorite wine and dine location. Shrug. I'm supposed to grab the intersections and the town. Now, I could either say, "We tried. I looked at the correlation of forces, ran some quick simulations, and realized it would be too bloody, so I created a bastion in the woods to await reinforcements. The Germans go through." Or, I could say, "We tried. It was bloody, and most of my battalion was destroyed in the attempt. The Germans got through." I know which one I like. So, I've pushed. Too hard, probably. And a dribble here and there doesn't help. Some of that is due to my desire to have some overwatch, some is just my mistake. But, a lot is due to the tiredness of my troops. I pushed hard and fast, figuring I'd rather have exhausted troops ON the objective than have well-rested troops trying to figure out how to assault an enemy position. That hard push has them tired. It paid off in the Town Center. I was short at the road intersection. Bil's mechanized advantage is huge. The response time (call it decision cycle) of his troops is far tighter than mine. If he wants to shift a platoon 500m, they arrive there a couple of turns later, rested. This shows, in a microcosm, why airborne troops are considered strategically mobile, but tactically immobile. I can get them anywhere by plane, but once they're on the ground, they're not going too far. (Logistics, support, etc, the "tail" is often not there. When they replace line infantry, like the 101st on "The Island" or the 82nd in The Bulge, then that is not quite as true. However, today's fully mobile US Army highlights that difference even more. The 82nd (our only Airborne division) has no organic transport (to speak of). They are foot sloggers. Try moving tactically sufficient quantities of ammo for a division on foot. For more than one fight. Nope, where they land is where they fight. But that's a long digression.)))) My men in the Ardennes are half and half rested and tired. I'm trying to rest them all up and use that as a bulwark. Bil is very good. He may do something about them at his leisure. My goal is to entice him into it. He certainly shouldn't get sucked into it. If I were Bil, I'd be sad. But that's a subject for another time! (insert smilie!) If I were facing the situation from Bil's side, I'd pin my guys in the woods, sweep across my force, picking off my support guys, then surround the town center on 3 sides and have some high explosive fun before sending in the troops. Bil's move from my left towards my center is exactly part of that type of move. I'd like to pull his sweep in, just a bit, towards my men. I'm willing to lose a unit or two to do so. (Otherwise ALL of that combat power of mine will be out of place.) Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 This to me shows something is off with tank spotting..A lone sniper prone in a wheat field gets spotted and picked off...? Tanks spot Inf to well and Inf seem deaf.. This could be a can of worms. I strongly request that if we want to discuss spotting, that we do so in a fresh thread. I'll leave this subject with a few observations, with no conclusions. 1. Bil was shooting that way earlier. The wirbelwind may've been area firing. (FOW, don't tell me.) 2. The sniper had been firing earlier. The wirbelwind has guys sticking up looking around. They could've spotted him. 3. Spotting is VERY complex behavior. Charles has created some seriously cool magic with it. I've tried many times to suss out, through controlled tests, what's going on behind the scenes. There may be some instances where it seems spotting is wrong, but there are many instances when it seems just right. Now, if there is more spotting stuff specific to this AAR, let's toss it around. But if we want to use examples from here to discuss spotting in general, let's do that in another thread. (Recognizing Fog of War issues allow YOU to see it from both sides, but I can only see it from mine, for now.) Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Plus, this way I get to find out what my men are made of, don't I? Results so far indicate they are made of flesh and blood, thankfully pixelated 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 This could be a can of worms. I strongly request that if we want to discuss spotting, that we do so in a fresh thread. I'll leave this subject with a few observations, with no conclusions. 1. Bil was shooting that way earlier. The wirbelwind may've been area firing. (FOW, don't tell me.) 2. The sniper had been firing earlier. The wirbelwind has guys sticking up looking around. They could've spotted him. 3. Spotting is VERY complex behavior. Charles has created some seriously cool magic with it. I've tried many times to suss out, through controlled tests, what's going on behind the scenes. There may be some instances where it seems spotting is wrong, but there are many instances when it seems just right. Now, if there is more spotting stuff specific to this AAR, let's toss it around. But if we want to use examples from here to discuss spotting in general, let's do that in another thread. (Recognizing Fog of War issues allow YOU to see it from both sides, but I can only see it from mine, for now.) Thanks, Ken Pretty wild discussion about Tanks and their spotting abilities here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111325 I suggest we keep those discussions there 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Oh that does suck. Been there before - we all have. What did the hit text say for that one? Was it a penetrating hit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Pretty wild discussion about Tanks and their spotting abilities here: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=111325 I suggest we keep those discussions there Yep, there is even a test scenario. Run some more, use it as inspiration of your own or just change it and get more information. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Bummer with the hit on the assualt gun with the piat as it appears to not have had any effect. I think that was a good setup. You had the team in a good spot for ambush with the tanks coming to you. More like that should increase your chances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Plus, this way I get to find out what my men are made of, don't I? Mostly dead meat in this case. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Schurtzen are doing very well against Piats I noticed too 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Yeah, the piat shell had a glancing angle. Good shot anyway. An engine hit would've made my day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 Turn 43:00 to 42:00 Bil remains focused near the Windmill and the left, incorporating the Dunes. On the far left, he continues to feed troops through the gamiest edge hug I've -ever- seen in ALL my years of gaming! Not just CM mind you, but I include every game I've ever played, including checkers. Here's a picture... Sweet. One friggin' 6 pounder. Sigh. More... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 43.00 to 42.00, cont. Windmill With Aitcheson's demise, my high water mark has been reached. Now I ebb. Later, I will flow. More... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 13, 2013 Author Share Posted September 13, 2013 43.00 to 42.00 Dunes A man silly enough to get up like that, well, you know. And one more... I am refusing my left flank. That sounds a bit grand, doesn't it? Actually, I've got 2 teams out there, only to make Bil take a pause before he sweeps in. The woods will be bloody for him, but only if he enters. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchman55555 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 If (IF) I could share one screen capture with Bil, it would definitely be this one... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Back to the management aspect: I would, in all seriousness, after finding out that I faced a fully mechanized foe, have pulled back, leaving just a few teams out, and forced him to hunt me down. But where's the fun in that? "Turn 72: My men continue to HIDE. Bil is conducting a search." Plus, this way I get to find out what my men are made of, don't I? So far in two AARs where Bil played as the Germans his preferred force mix has been similar in each instance. I think it is a pretty good bet that if Bil is playing as the German his force mix will be similar most of the time. Even when he played as British Paras his force was partially motorized so I think Bil's preferred force mix is becoming a bit predictable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 IIRC Bil is a former US Army officer with the 1st Cavalry Division so it's no surprise that he prefers his infantry to be highly mobile with plenty of armored support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Edgehugging is a dealbreaker for me. If i spot my enemy doing it, I will call him out on it and call the battle forfit. It's only valid if there happens to be a road at that edge and he is following the road. And even then it is a pretty dodgy move... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Edgehugging is a dealbreaker for me. If i spot my enemy doing it, I will call him out on it and call the battle forfit. It's only valid if there happens to be a road at that edge and he is following the road. And even then it is a pretty dodgy move... It is only a game and the game allows it... Life is too short... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Lee Irked Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Turn 43:00 to 42:00 On the far left, he continues to feed troops through the gamiest edge hug I've -ever- seen in ALL my years of gaming! Not just CM mind you, but I include every game I've ever played, including checkers. Perhaps Bil could write up a tactical tutorial on "edge hugging" on his new blog ... I could use a few pointers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 Perhaps Bil could write up a tactical tutorial on "edge hugging" on his new blog ... I could use a few pointers. I am suprised he hasn't lost his units off the edge he is that close 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 It is only a game and the game allows it... Life is too short... Oh you mean kinda how my opponent once bought Heavy battleship and rocket artillery for his entire alotted points in a quickbattle and proceeded to wipe my forces from the map on the first turn? Yes its a game, but using gamy tactics to the extreme ruins the fun and that means I dont want to play (because I play to have fun). Life is indeed too short to waste on people who ruin the fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 It's only valid if there happens to be a road at that edge and he is following the road. And even then it is a pretty dodgy move... To me, edge hugging isn't as much of a cardinal sin it was in the CMx1 games. In a CMBB QB ME a large randomly generated map would be 4-6 km wide with the VLs concentrated near the middle. The map in this AAR is 1.6 km wide and one of the VLs appears to be locate almost right on a map edge. On CMx2 maps you have to use whatever terrain there is and assume your opponent will do the same. It's your responsibility to make sure your flanks are anchored on some impassible terrain or map edge or are at least adequately guarded. It looks to me in one of the recent screenshots that there may be a raised berm that runs parallel to the map edge where Bil's forces are advancing. In some of the zoomed-out shots it appears there is little more than an open field on the other side of the berm. So Bil either hugs the edge or runs them across an open field, probably in LOS of Ken's forces in the Dune's area. If the mapmaker puts the best, or only, cover along the extreme edge of the map I find it hard to blame a player for using it. I blame the mapmaker if anyone. Ken's left flank is not anchored on anything. I'm not sure if he didn't notice the dead ground along that edge and thought Bil would have to cross the open field, or if he just assumed Bil wouldn't dare make use of it. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Churchmoor Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 ...On CMx2 maps you have to use whatever terrain there is and assume your opponent will do the same. It's your responsibility to make sure your flanks are anchored on some impassible terrain or map edge or are at least adequately guarded...Ken's left flank is not anchored on anything... Have to agree with Vanir. I have never (pbems in CMx1 and CMx2) understood that 'edge hugging' would be or is gamey. "You are not allowed to move your troops 20/50/100 meters closer to map edge! It is gamey!1!" I play CM mainly because of realism and protecting your flanks against an attack or flanking your oppo is and has been basic military doctrine for the last xxxx years. I think Bill is doing the right thing here using Ken's unprotected flank. Sorry about the slight OT here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuderian Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I do not think edge hugging is gamey or unrealistic. IRL commanders often attacked at the juncture of two formations so the edge could represent this. Everyone knows extreme flank attacks are common so one prepares for it, no? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted September 13, 2013 Share Posted September 13, 2013 I think some people are reacting because he has a column literally right on the map edge rather than just near it. But if that's where the map maker put the dead ground then so be it, IMO. By persistently hanging on the enemy's flank, we shall succeed in the long run in killing the commander-in-chief. -- Sun Tzu 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.