Simulating a 1941 FJ battalion

[Broadsword56]

If I want to represent a 1941 era FJ battalion, it seems fairly feasible to do that by tweaking the OB editor here and there. But an issue arises with the 4th (heavy) company, which would have had the little 50cm mortars.

I know the 50 cm mortars were considered next to useless, but they do give some HE capability to the formation that I'm not sure I can totally leave out. Which of these options do you think would be best in terms of game effect without throwing the firepower off too much one way or the other:

1. Just give the company more HMG sections and no mortars.

2. Use a tweaked Italian weapons company to replace the German 4th company and let their Brixia mortars stand in for the 50 cm.

3. Leave the proper number of HMG sections in the company, and replace what would have been 50mm sections with standard FJ infantry -- pretending the mortars got lost in the para drop or that the mortarmen tossed them away at the first opportunity.

[iMolestCats]

I believe option 3 would work best.

[Baneman]

I believe you mean 50mm - 50cm is quite large

Whatever the feeling in reality, in game the British version is far from useless, almost always able to snipe a squad or team no matter what cover they're behind.

So I think that option 2 is probably your better bet, perhaps with reduced ammo load.

[Rokko]

Option 4: Wait for CM: Crete

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Option 5 The Dodocenese Camaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodecanese_Campaign

OK so not Crete but very similar with the main historical batles being the German invasions of Kos and Leros in September to November 1943. Interestingly there were fairly large numbers of Italian troops on the islands, this time fighting on the Allied side.

Another possibility might be to do an Allied liberation of Crete.

[Wicky]

Another possibility might be to do an Allied liberation of Crete.

Is that British and Germans fighting together against Greek Communist partisans?

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=12732&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Nominally the head of the 133.FestD, Gen KLEPP, should have been the head of the German forces on Crete.

Due illness, the CO of artillery on Crete (Arko „Kreta“) Obst BENTHACK, from December on GenMjr, became CO of Crete.

On 9th May of1945 GenMjr BENTHACK signed the surrender in Heraklion.

The German forces surrendered to the 28th Infantry-brigade (CO was BrigGen P.G.C. PRESTON).

The Germans waited in vain for the British occupation troops on 11th of May.

Then an emergancy call of the British, who were in heavy fightings with „ELAS“ (a Greek communist resistance movement).

A German assult unit/task force with the tank battallion liberated the British and drove back the Greek partisans.

Afterwards, the car of BrigGen PRESTON was always escorted by two German tanks.

Till the end of June

[Fizou]

Option 6: The paras 81 is very small and could simlate the 50. The 81 is of course more powerful so the ammo could be reduced and the amount of total tubes reduced as well.

[c3k]

I like the brixia option, myself. (Of course, the brixia is FAR better than the 50mm mortar, so perhaps reduce the ammo count.) Second choice would be using British 2" mortar.

[Michael Emrys]

The 50 mm mortar was not useless. It was about as lethal as similar sized mortars. Its big handicap was it was a heavy and complex design for the size of bomb it threw, which meant it was a pain to lug around and bring into action.

Michael

[mjkerner]

I was thinking like Fizou last night, option #6 is probably the best one.

I was also thinking of Option #7, however:

This was a quick bash-up. A little work on the leggings, etc. Once I learn how a Hex editor works, pointing these models to the Fj helmet, and this could work; at least from a distance.

[Broadsword56]

Wow! Nice work there mjkerner!

I did get some OOB resource references from a game designer who really researched this deeply. So, if anyone wants to delve into the details of 1941 FJ TO&E, here you are:

Each Parachute Battalion had 3 Infantry Companies and 1 Heavy Weapons Company (with 2 MG Plts and an 80mm mortar Plt)

Each Regiment had 3 Parachute Battalions and a Recoilless Rifle Company and an AT Company.

The Division had 3 Regiments plus an Artillery Battalion (3 Batteries), MG Battalion (3 Companies), an Light AA Battalion with (4 Companies), a Pioneer (Engineer) Battalion with 4 Companies, and an AT Battalion (3 Companies). Most of the Companies from the separate battalions were doled out amongst the regiments with the exception of the Pioneer Battalion.

Here are a couple of secondary sources available on the internet if you are interested:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40481156/Osprey-Battle-Orders-004-German-Airborne-Division-Blitzkrieg-1940-41

http://www.scribd.com/doc/45228565/7Th-Flieger-Division-Student-s-Fallschirmjager-Elite-PDF-by-Snack

Official NZ history of the Crete campaign:

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Cret.html

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Is that British and Germans fighting together against Greek Communist partisans?

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=12732&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

No that would be a hypothetical Allied invasion of Crete in mid/latte 1943 or 1944 to kick the Germans out! :-)

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

The 5cm Gw36 and the Brixia have essentially identical range, and while neither is especially powerful, if they land a mortar bomb where you are or close, it's going to hurt. Would you stand near a more or less vertically delivered Red Devil grenade when it went off?

The Brixia (informative text accompanies vid)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=16e_1331651883

I think not having some sort of mortar in your depiction is a mistake and deprives your FJ of an important capability.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Erwin]

One can get a lot of TO&E info from cardboard wargames. Those designers did a huge amount of research over the past several decades. eg: Check out GMT Games. Some of their WW2 games come with that sort of info.

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

This may help. Please see breakdown of 1941 FJ company below. It includes the Mortar Troop which provides company level fire support.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1005585#1005585

ROF for the Gw 36 is 15-25 round per minute, so I doubt any tweak on ammo for the Brixia needs to be done as a result. So far, I haven't found the ammo figures for the Gw 36 equipped Mortar Troop (3 x Gw 36).

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

How to use the l.Gw 36, to include that ammo comes in 10-round boxes, which are fitted with carrying handles. 10 rounds = 20 lbs + box weight. Not sure how many rounds total are typically carried.

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-infantry-weapons/german-5-cm-light-mortar.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

According to Inert-Ordnance.net, the Red Devil grenade has an effective radius of 10-16 meters, thus, 1 AS completely (with a bit of spill adjacent) to 2 AS.

http://www.inert-ord.net/italrd/

Not as impressive as the U.S. 60mm mortar round, but still quite capable of killing or wounding an entire squad in a single hit, if WW II combat footage is any indicator.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Broadsword56,

Was looking for something on the M3 GMC when I came across this 1942 Allied Intel report, Enemy Airborne Forces. Hope it helps your war effort!

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/airborne/index.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[ASL Veteran]

Broadsword, I'm just curious, but why don't you ever make something that is actually covered by the time frames contained within the games themselves?

[Broadsword56]

Broadsword, I'm just curious, but why don't you ever make something that is actually covered by the time frames contained within the games themselves?

Good question.

Answer: I often do and I have. Look back in the Repository and you'll find a huge 4km x 4km master map of the area N of Saint-Lo for I did in CMBN. It was for an operational-tactical campaign that sburke and I played and greatly enjoyed. Right now I'm also very happily playing CMBN-CW in its original time period in an op-tac campaign simulating Operation Dauntless, June '44.

Op-Tac campaigns vs. a real person in HTH Wego are the only way I play CMx2. So the maps and scenarios I make get driven by what operational campaign I'm playing or want to play. And that's a function of which boardgames I feel work well with CMx2. There are only so many boardgames that fit the bill, IMHO. So sometimes it's necessary to look for mods and tweaks to get the game experience I want.

Here, for example, I'm interested in 1941 mods because I'm now playtesting the upcoming Crete game in the MMP Grand Tactical Series. It can make a fun campaign while waiting for CMBN-MG to come out. On the Eastern Front, the game I plan to use with CM is Panzer Command. That game is set in Fall '42-Spring '43, so vanilla Bagration just won't work with it without some tweaking.

But I also have a Salerno game that will make a good op layer for GL (Death Ride Salerno: 16th Panzer) and I plan to play that eventually too, using vanilla GL.

[sburke]

Broadsword, I'm just curious, but why don't you ever make something that is actually covered by the time frames contained within the games themselves?

I can vouch on this one, I think the main reason for the perception is that for these projects Broadsword needs assistance. However we are finished one campaign and have another running currently in the CMBN time frame with another planned once MG is out that haven't needed any external input. The issues we are debating have more to do with working out how to manage reinforcements, C2 delays etc. If anything I worry that Broadsword will burn out from having too many pots boiling.

[mjkerner]

Broadsword, did you decide on what you wanted to do with the light mortars for the FJ platoon? I think the vanilla 81mm would work OK, but I also did a quick mod of a Brit 2in mortar team and they look better than the Italians I modded. Unfortunately I didn't take pics and deleted them in the Great Ghost Uniform Hunt of 2013 (see the Fallschirmjaeger thread on Maps and Mods), but can mock one up pretty quick in the next day or so.

Let me know.

[Broadsword56]

Thanks mj,

I'd love to see the Brit 2" mortar teams modded into FJ 5cm teams, but can you actually mod an allied unit and then place it into German OOBs?

[mjkerner]

Yes, you can for scenarios. It wouldn't work in QBs though. You can switch between Allied v Axis, Allied v Allied, and Axis v Axis while you are setting up units in a scenario. I used to think once you chose between those options, you are locked in, but turns out that's not the case. So when you're building your FJ units in an Allied v Axis situation, you just have to switch to Mission and choose Allied to Allied, go back to Units, choose Purchase Axis (in Units, the choice is always Allied or Axis for obvious reasons), and purchase a Brit Para mortar from Specialist Teams. Voila!

[Broadsword56]

After looking through my sources, it seems to me that in Crete the FJ rifle companies had a 4th (heavy) platoon that had a 5cm mortar team, and at battalion level there was a weapons company that had the 80mm mortars and MMGs.