Whiterider Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 I´d like to know why CMX2 games cannot have a random map generator like CMX1. Still there are loads of people playing CMX1 ladder games using this great feature. Is there a particular reason to avoid it in CMX2? :confused: Or is it just an "intelligent" business decision? :mad: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 There have been MANY threads about this. To answer your questions, yes, there is a particular reason to avoid it in CMX2, and yes, every decision made by a business is a "business" decision. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 It was decided that the maps that CMx1's 'auto-generator' created were pretty crappy. With limited terrain features, non-sensical placement of terrain features (walls an hedges placed randomly), etc. With the additional complexity of CMx2's maps, it was decided it would not be worth the effort to create a map-auto-generator that would make maps that would be even crappier than CMx1's. That's is one of the reasons why there are hand-created Quick Battle maps that are designed for particular actions (Assault, Meeting Engagement, etc.). While these maps aren't perfect, there is a fairly decent selection of them and more can be made by anyone who wants to. Another factor in not creating an auto-generator is that the maps also have AI orders associated with them. Something that would take FAR too long code up in an auto-generator for (if it would even be possible). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiterider Posted April 29, 2013 Author Share Posted April 29, 2013 Thanks Schrullenhaft! That makes sense. I hope one day this feature might be part of CMX3 engine since there are MANY threads about it and MANY people interested. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 ^^^ Me too! Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 I hope one day this feature might be part of CMX3 engine since there are MANY threads about it and MANY people interested. There'll have to be rather more people interested enough to buy x2 before BFC will have the resources to spend on getting an ever more complex mapping paradigm and AI environment completely randomised in a manner that would satisfy anyone at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Well, I am one of those that certainly don´t miss the random map generator. I agree that most of the maps looked awful - to put it mildly. This was especially the case whenever there were man made features involved. And with the much more detailed and sophisticated map features in CM2 the awfulness of auto generated maps would probably increase exponentially. I really hope that BFC will spend their precious time on (in my view) more important features. May I suggest that you might use the maps of the user made scenarios in the repository for your QB´s, Whiterider? Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiterider Posted April 29, 2013 Author Share Posted April 29, 2013 May I suggest that you might use the maps of the user made scenarios in the repository for your QB´s, Whiterider? Cheers I use them , but every random map is different and I prefer them for multiplayer games since you´re sure it was never played before, and also the surprise effect... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdogg Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 I think the map generator would be a great edition. You could open it in the full size editor and touch it up, could be a great time saver for scenario design. I'd like to see more options in QBs in general and a true map generator would be a step in that direction. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Can someone point at some cool maps in the repository. I had a good look, but there didn't seem to be that many. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 While I disagree that the auto-generated maps were "awful", they could definitely produce some odd compositions. Some things were difficult to impossible to do even in the editor however, and that accounted for a generous portion of the problems. But the auto-generator was so simple to use that if the first or second one didn't please me, I could just turn out another one in seconds. So, in general I liked it and I miss it. All that said, there are very cogent reasons, some of them offered here and some more elsewhere, why it was abandoned in x2. Would I like to see a better version return at some point? You betcha, but I am inclined to believe that half of us will be in our graves before that happens. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The good thing about auto maps is that they made for a starting point that was better for adapting than starting from scratch from a blank map. On the other hand so long as we have talented map and scenario designer who enjoy making them, that's more important. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 A (good) map generator is probably quite difficult but a terrain generator which limits itself to natural features doesn't seem too far fetched. It would at least help to start making a map. But since BFC doesn't make money from maps there is no incentive. Maybe we get an import feature for an external terrain generator. Who knows? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 A (good) map generator is probably quite difficult but a terrain generator which limits itself to natural features doesn't seem too far fetched. It would at least help to start making a map. But since BFC doesn't make money from maps there is no incentive. Maybe we get an import feature for an external terrain generator. Who knows? Yeah, I totally agree with this--we don't need a map generator to place every building and tree but it would be great to have one that could spit out a map with predefined terrain characteristics (hilly, flat, mountains, etc.). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I agree with ME about the benefit of being able to swiftly generate maps in CMx1 however we do not have that in CMx2 and there are bigger things to sort out than an auto-generator. However the halfway house of generated topographic maps is perhaps achievable by the community. This may be an attractive option in that the same underlying terrain is made available and open for a quarterly competition for noobie class, senior class etc to have their way with. This hopefully would provide a reserve of decent maps and the critique would drive up standards/knowledge and reward designers. Realism being the goal not how does it play. How any map plays depends on the force types, day/night , and weather [therefore I always think it a vain effort unless you are doing the entire scenario]. As I had sworn off CMBN until V2.00 i don't follow the threads on maps so questions: Does some sort of competition or honour system already exist? Would a small token amount also be an incentive? A permanent thread on forum? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davek555 Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 If I remember correctly, BFC was considering some sort of "tile" system where smaller maps could be joined together to form larger maps for use in QB's. I wonder if that idea has been shelved or if it is still planned for sometime down the road? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 If I had to choose map features, I'd probably choose one that would allow us to use maps from different CMx2 games (ie, use CMBN maps in CMFI or CM East Front); even if incompatible terrain types (eg, bocage in Belorussia) were simply eliminated it would be a huge boost for making quality maps. Automatically-generated terrain meshes would be my second choice however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 If you want to have a random map as a starting point, have you thought about using the graphic overlay import option to provide an arbitrary terrain to start from? It's certainly better than a blank slate, and I'm sure BFC will develop its usability with time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 The primary benefit of the autogenerated maps (as was stated earlier, and to return to it) was to _quickly_ create battles of a known perfectly playable quality and that neither player had seen before. "Quickly" means without going into the editor. While there are many "QB" maps in CMx2 (and kudos to the creators for them) they barely scratch the surface of this problem. This is because there are lots of maps because there are lots of parameters. Suppose I like playing "Medium sized MEs in hilly terrain". There were an infinite number of quite reasonable maps of this nature with the old random generator. Wheras, I have _already_ run out of suitable candidates in the current pool, for the game-types that I like. And what's more, if you pick another one, get all ready to play, then you can discover that your oppo has already played this map! How do you prevent that from happening? Very difficult. This, plus the problem of no limited force composition in the purchasing, makes having a "Quick Battle" a very laborious beast indeed, and one that involves negotiation with your opponent. Suppose you are about to have a "Quick battle" attack game. How many points is the attacker allowed to spend on armour? Which map will you use? If you are creating it yourself, where will the VLs be? How much will they be worth? The game may actually be won during the negotiation process!! The autogenerate maps might not have looked pretty, but they were reasonable reliable in generating a balanced scenario, as were the old force composition rules. I don't know who or how those were put together but they really worked. This is what is missing now - QB's are "laborious negotiation Bs" GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiterider Posted April 30, 2013 Author Share Posted April 30, 2013 Can someone point at some cool maps in the repository. I had a good look, but there didn't seem to be that many. Scenario maps can be used for quick battles if you paste them in "Quick maps" folder and choose them manually. I only have found three maps in the repository that also can be used for QB: "Line of defense"; "CMFI movie map" and "small quick battle with river". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 There were an infinite number of quite reasonable maps of this nature with the old random generator. uh oh, don't get us started again about "infinite" and maybe about "random" too... While I certainly miss the random maps, I accept that it simply might not be practicable to re-introduce them. That is why I think the best way would be to faciliate creating as many non-random maps as possible, by sharing them among all the games. I hadn't thought of womble's suggestion to use a terrain overlay import and indeed am not familiar with the process, but that sounds worth exploring. But where do you get the terrain overlays which can be used to create maps? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Scenario maps can be used for quick battles if you paste them in "Quick maps" folder and choose them manually. I only have found three maps in the repository that also can be used for QB: "Line of defense"; "CMFI movie map" and "small quick battle with river". Wouldn't any scenario map with a plan for the AI be playable as a QB? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiterider Posted April 30, 2013 Author Share Posted April 30, 2013 Wouldn't any scenario map with a plan for the AI be playable as a QB? Michael I think so, but you´ll have to follow the parameters of the scenario (ie. axis attack, meeting engagement, etc.) for your QB. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Wouldn't any scenario map with a plan for the AI be playable as a QB? Michael Hmmm, I don't think the QB AI uses more than .... I'm thinking two groups (although I'm not sure). It's certainly less than the sixteen groups that can be used for scenario making. So without some sort of an adjustment it's probable that the QB force wouldn't fit in the areas allotted for the AI if you were to just do a straight conversion from a scenario map to a QB map. Plus not all the AI groups would be used anyway - well and the victory locations probably wouldn't work right either. I think you have to do a lot of clean up to make a scenario map good for QBs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 But where do you get the terrain overlays which can be used to create maps? There have been a number of discussions on this board on where to get such things. Google Earth is apparently a good source. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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