Gustav Line Beta AAR Round Two PEANUT GALLERY

[c3k]

I think BOTH threads are getting a little too much "advice". But that's just me...

[Michael Emrys]

I think BOTH threads are getting a little too much "advice". But that's just me...

Well, it's me too. (What am I doing agreeing with a known maniac? :eek: )

Michael

[Sublime]

Sub, FWIW, I think you're post about air strikes in Bil's thread is sailing too close to the wind.

Mmm I'd worried about that. But remember I posted that before anyone had posted anything about any purchases or anything. All I mentioned was that it'd be an unlikely (because it's unwise) choice to buy airpower.

[c3k]

As much as I think GaJ needs an armored reaction force, about 2 platoons tanks, 1 platoon mech inf., and a slew of fake entrenchments, with a scattering of sniper's under tight fire orders, all with loads of mines and wire and TRP's, I will not say a word about it on his thread. Skewing and all that. Likewise, my thoughts on Bil's purchases. Lots of armor for the advance through machineguns and artillery, and a buttload of direct fire support weapons to chuck HE. Mum's the word...

[sburke]

I thought the word was Attack!!!

[Michael Emrys]

I thought the word was Attack!!!

Ken's meds have started to kick in.

Michael

[c3k]

^^^

LOL. Thanks.

Back to the AAR. Bil has not yet revealed his force selection, whereas GaJ has.

- Bil's analysis dovetails nicely with GaJ's...with one possibly important exception. (It MUST be noted here that Bil created this map. Yeah, that's a HUGE advantage, but his level of analysis would confer a similar advantage on a map which is new to him. Now, a criticism. I, personally, would NEVER use the editor to deploy forces in the enemy backfield or on objectives, in order to suss out LOS. Bil has done so. That's not a game-breaker, but it breaks the immersion, for me. (However, I do not restrict my camera before the game. I examine the map, but never by using the LOS tool.) So, Bil is the mapmaker AND he has used the LOS tool to check the view from the enemy.) Perhaps he only used the editor to place those units for the purpose of this AAR.

Regardless, the exception to the map analysis: Bil has identified a stream as an obstacle to vehicles over on his right flank (just short of "the spur"). GaJ has not identified that as an obstacle to movement.

GaJ's force: I think a company of Rangers may be a mistake. High morale is great, and I -assume- he's also cranked up their experience. However, Rangers are an offensive unit. Their TO&E is meant to attack. (I know! That's ALWAYS a good thing, right? ) A line company, with a Ranger platoon attached for counterattack may be better suited to take the punishment which is surely coming their way.

The timeframe means that GaJ has few choices for 76mm guns. The ATG's cannot be relied on anything other than one or two shots. A single gun is a goner. A "pakfront", with tight cover arcs, so they won't fire until the enemy is deep in the killzone, is the only way to use an immobile weapon. Afterwards, expect artillery to neutralize them.

Other than the M-10's, I don't see anything with tactical mobility. The M-10's are a mortarman's dream. Bil is anticipating a reaction force. (Kenforce, anyone? ) GaJ is attempting one.

Another point: GaJ stated that he cannot purchase enough obstacles to render the ridge road unusable. That's not the purpose of an obstacle. Channelize the attack, don't try to stop it. I'd think he should've purchased a LOT of mines. He's got to try to hold the tits as long as he can. (Good advice, any day of the week.) Mining the deadzones, a few likely approach paths, etc, would be enough to give Bil pause.

(I have not yet tried to find out what 3500 points (is that the right number?) can buy GaJ. Take the above criticisms under advisement based on that.)

Thoughts?

Ken

[General Lee Irked]

Now, a criticism. I, personally, would NEVER use the editor to deploy forces in the enemy backfield or on objectives, in order to suss out LOS. Bil has done so. That's not a game-breaker, but it breaks the immersion, for me. (However, I do not restrict my camera before the game. I examine the map, but never by using the LOS tool.)

I have never done this either.

Other than the M-10's, I don't see anything with tactical mobility. The M-10's are a mortarman's dream.

I would have bought 2-3 Shermans in addition to the M-10's. AT guns and I seem to agree to disagree. Also HMG Bunkers hmm I would not have spent money on those, again ...to fixed.

Channelize the attack, don't try to stop it. I'd think he should've purchased a LOT of mines. He's got to try to hold the tits as long as he can. (Good advice, any day of the week.) Mining the deadzones, a few likely approach paths, etc, would be enough to give Bil pause.

Good points yet I think the cost/risk might be what is keeping GaJ shy of these assets.

As to holding on to the tits ( there is a sig line in your statement)

Do you think that it is inevitable that he will lose this ground and he might be better off delaying Bil's advance and TRP that location so to make that ground costly for Bil? Timing would be key here obviously.

Cheers

Tim

[Michael Emrys]

Did GaJ indicate which caliber ATGs he bought? I would have gone with 57 mm as they are cheaper and should do the job if fired from a flank.

I agree with Tim's point about the HMG bunkers. Waste of points. I would have gone with some ATG bunkers instead. And Ken's point about obstacles is sound. It wouldn't cost all that much to buy enough to channelize the attacks into kill zones for the ATGs.

Michael

[Baneman]

...I agree with Tim's point about the HMG bunkers. Waste of points. I would have gone with some ATG bunkers instead. ...

There are ATG bunkers ?? Is that a new GL feature ?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I agree with Tim's point about the HMG bunkers. Waste of points. I would have gone with some ATG bunkers instead.l

Are ATG bunkers available to the Allies in CMFI? In CMBN the Allies only get machine guns bunkers. But I agree that they are a curious choice, especially given that GaJ is expecting an armor-heavy attack.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Now, a criticism. I, personally, would NEVER use the editor to deploy forces in the enemy backfield or on objectives, in order to suss out LOS. Bil has done so. That's not a game-breaker, but it breaks the immersion, for me. (However, I do not restrict my camera before the game. I examine the map, but never by using the LOS tool.) So, Bil is the mapmaker AND he has used the LOS tool to check the view from the enemy.) Perhaps he only used the editor to place those units for the purpose of this AAR.

I've never felt the need to go into the editor to do it before picking units, but this doesn't otherwise seem much different than plotting a movement point anywhere on the map to check LOS. I thought everyone did that.

[c3k]

Bil has shown his force selection. It looks good. As someone, who obviously has high tactical acuity, suggested upstream as a good choice, he has purchased armored infantry. (Somewhere, an English teacher just looked up from what he was doing and screamed. He will never know why...)

My critique on the paucity of weapons at GaJ's disposal is mitigated by the forces Bil has purchased. However, at the end of the day, GaJ needs enough barrels to dampen the tempo of Bil's advance, no matter which side of the map Bil chooses. Then GaJ needs a force to CRUSH Bil.

My bet is that GaJ will be inclined to split his forces: 2 ATG's per side. Once he sees that he cannot cover enough ground with just 2 ATG's per side, he'll beef them up with his M-10's. Again, probably 2 per side. That will be a mistake. His counterattack/spoiling force (Kenforce!) needs to be a tightly compacted fist, coiled like a snake, ready to leap upon his enemy and ravage him amid the twin tits. Or somesuch.

This is fun. Off to make some popcorn...

Ken

[Michael Emrys]

There are ATG bunkers ?? Is that a new GL feature ?

Sorry, my mistake. I thought that a player could purchase an empty bunker and place an ATG in it. That appears not to be the case. BTW, isn't that a rather insane amount of rarity points attached to the purchase of bunkers for the US?

Michael

[Andrew H.]

GaJ's force: I think a company of Rangers may be a mistake. High morale is great, and I -assume- he's also cranked up their experience. However, Rangers are an offensive unit. Their TO&E is meant to attack. (I know! That's ALWAYS a good thing, right? ) A line company, with a Ranger platoon attached for counterattack may be better suited to take the punishment which is surely coming their way.

I'm not sure that this is a mistake.

On the one hand, the standard US infantry squad is pretty good in a lot of situations: it's big, it's resilient, and it can take a lot of punishment. In the kind of "set-piece" battles I tend to end up fighting in CMBN, it can also dish out a lot of punishment, particularly when firing from behind good cover, like bocage.

On the other hand, when I play a CMFI battle, which tends to be larger and more open and involve a lot of split squads, the Panzergrenadiers give my Americans fits because they have so many automatic weapons - two of the three teams have MG-42s, while the US squads will have only one team with an automatic weapon, which is just a BAR. Even the German HQ squads are deadly at 200 meters or so because of their SMGs. (I don't think US HQs have thompson's in Sicily; also US armored infantry squads don't get any BARs in Sicily).

On the other hand, a ranger platoon gets either: (1) a 4 man HQ with 2xThompsons, 1 Garand, and 1 marksman, plus two 10 man squads with 2 Thomspons, 1 BAR, 7 Garands (plus two satchel charges); or (2) the same 4 man HQ, plus 2 7 man squads with 5 Garands and 2 Thompsons, *and* two 3 man MMG teams. (There's a zook in the mix, too).

So I think this would be a reasonable defensive choice to deny Bil's infantry scouts on a large map like this. The weakness, of course, is that they are somewhat brittle, as each Ranger platoon consists of 20 men plus HQ, as opposed to 36 men for a standard company. (Which does cost more, however).

The timeframe means that GaJ has few choices for 76mm guns. The ATG's cannot be relied on anything other than one or two shots. A single gun is a goner. A "pakfront", with tight cover arcs, so they won't fire until the enemy is deep in the killzone, is the only way to use an immobile weapon. Afterwards, expect artillery to neutralize them.

I like the 4 ATGs; I just hope he can keep them far enough back that they will be useful. I like 76mm because of its anti-infantry capability - not its primary function, but they can sometimes take out a half squad without being spotted. Or take out a mortar team that is trying direct fire. You're right that arty is their weakness, though,.s - particularly in this battle where Bil has *so much* arty.

Other than the M-10's, I don't see anything with tactical mobility. The M-10's are a mortarman's dream. Bil is anticipating a reaction force. (Kenforce, anyone? ) GaJ is attempting one.

I think I would have gone for Shermans over M-10s. While the M-10 can, I think, penetrate the Elefant from the side, it has too many other shortcomings: it doesn't carry many HE rounds, it doesn't have a BMG (like the Ferdinand at Kursk!), and it's vulnerable to artillery. Because I think it's very unlikely that Bil would allow a flank shot against his Elefant, betting on an M-10 on the off chance of getting a kill seems too speculative.

.

Another point: GaJ stated that he cannot purchase enough obstacles to render the ridge road unusable. That's not the purpose of an obstacle. Channelize the attack, don't try to stop it. I'd think he should've purchased a LOT of mines. He's got to try to hold the tits as long as he can. (Good advice, any day of the week.) Mining the deadzones, a few likely approach paths, etc, would be enough to give Bil pause.

(I have not yet tried to find out what 3500 points (is that the right number?) can buy GaJ. Take the above criticisms under advisement based on that.)

Thoughts?

Ken

I haven't run the number on the mines, but I think they end up being fairly expensive in large enough quantities to have a meaningful effect. But then again, I suck at placing mines, so there is that to consider.

But I like the bunkers even less: I don't think you want to be fixed in place in this battle.

Since GaJ decided to go with the m-10s, I wonder what a platoon of Stuarts would have cost as a rapid anti-infantry reaction force? At least in CMFI, their canister is devastating against infantry at likely ranges; they also move quickly and have a lots of MGs. (It's also easier to resist the temptation to use them against the big tanks, although of course they can take out a Pz IV from the side...

Edit: I did a quick CMFI point value check (some values are approximate due to crew quality variations):

Sherman: ~180 pts.

Stuart: ~110 pts.

HMG Bunker: ~80 pts.

10x AP mines: 150 pts

10x AT mines: 250 pts

10x mixed mines: 300 pts.

[womble]

Sorry, my mistake. I thought that a player could purchase an empty bunker and place an ATG in it. That appears not to be the case. BTW, isn't that a rather insane amount of rarity points attached to the purchase of bunkers for the US?

Michael

The US pay a hefty rarity premium for fortifications in BN and FI. I suppose because IRL they weren't often defending field fortifications (or much at all).

[Hister]

I'm cheering for GaJ because he has the least chances to win and is the less experienced/skilled player. Not that he can win with what he has purchased against what Bil's got but there's to hoping...

[c3k]

Andrew H.: Thanks for running the points. I still think GaJ should've spent some AP mines and just a couple (at least) AT mines. Nice analysis of the Rangers vs. line infantry. I agree that the lack of men may be telling. The "boom" factor may make up for it... (What would separate 'zook teams have cost??)

Womble: Nice observation about the rarity cost for US fortifications. That may render my fake entrenchment defense a moot position.

Ken

[Andrew H.]

Andrew H.: Thanks for running the points. I still think GaJ should've spent some AP mines and just a couple (at least) AT mines. Nice analysis of the Rangers vs. line infantry. I agree that the lack of men may be telling. The "boom" factor may make up for it... (What would separate 'zook teams have cost??)

Ken

Separate zook teams are 34 pts.

Separate MMG teams are 37pts.

I knew a standard rifle company was more expensive than a ranger company, but I didn't realize how much more:

Ranger Co.: 350 pts.

Inf. Co.: 740 pts.

[newlife]

I think Gaj did fine here with purchases. Without the map to zoom around in, it's hard to know for sure. Bill won't have the tanks be a lead scout element with a high probability of ATG guns. Instead they'll sit back behind heavy frontal armor. If Gaj has the right kill zones that demand the box be taken out before advancing, then a tank has to come forward. Presumably the ATG is back enough with the right angle and view to take out the side armor. It's a fine idea and theory, lets see what the map brings.

[A Canadian Cat]

Back to the AAR. Bil has not yet revealed his force selection, whereas GaJ has.

I am a little behind and have not read the latest on either thread - just my thoughts on your thoughts for now:)

Now, a criticism. I, personally, would NEVER use the editor to deploy forces in the enemy backfield or on objectives, in order to suss out LOS. Bil has done so. That's not a game-breaker, but it breaks the immersion, for me.

Agreed. For a quick battle I want map preview on and I will look around and perform an informal analysis (from reading Bill's AARs I think I should really step up my analysis - looks like it helps). Using the camera I will look from the enemy locations and from my own to get a sense of how visible the various avenues of approach are. Once we are in setup phase I have no reservation about using the LOS tool to poke around a bit. Including placing way points on the enemy side of the map and looking at how a hill effects visibility - for example.

Regardless, the exception to the map analysis: Bil has identified a stream as an obstacle to vehicles over on his right flank (just short of "the spur"). GaJ has not identified that as an obstacle to movement.

I wonder if GaJ missing out on this will effect the game. Would he have concluded that due to the stream there will be no armoured attack there and change his defensive positioning? This could be an important factor in the out come of the game.

GaJ's force: I think a company of Rangers may be a mistake. High morale is great, and I -assume- he's also cranked up their experience. However, Rangers are an offensive unit. Their TO&E is meant to attack. (I know! That's ALWAYS a good thing, right? ) A line company, with a Ranger platoon attached for counterattack may be better suited to take the punishment which is surely coming their way.

It is good to see a more considered side of you here:) I like your suggestion about the regular infantry augmented by Rangers. I have not played with rangers yet but faced them in a CMFI battle as the Itallians - got slaughtered.

Other than the M-10's, I don't see anything with tactical mobility. The M-10's are a mortarman's dream. Bil is anticipating a reaction force. (Kenforce, anyone? ) GaJ is attempting one.

Yeah, I see the appeal - the 76mm gun - but they are fragile. A possibility would be to have M10s instead of AT guns and add some tanks to top up the points.

Another point: GaJ stated that he cannot purchase enough obstacles to render the ridge road unusable. That's not the purpose of an obstacle. Channelize the attack, don't try to stop it. I'd think he should've purchased a LOT of mines. He's got to try to hold the tits as long as he can. (Good advice, any day of the week.) Mining the deadzones, a few likely approach paths, etc, would be enough to give Bil pause.

I am not sold on purchasing mines. They get pretty expensive if you buy a LOT:-) Place them in the wrong place and they are all for naught. I can see some utility to have some for key locations or to block an avenue of attack. In this case GaJ felt that he cannot block the ridge road and I am not sure if he really can channel anything into a kill zone up there both his and Bills analysis shows that visibility is actually pretty poor up there.

(I have not yet tried to find out what 3500 points (is that the right number?) can buy GaJ. Take the above criticisms under advisement based on that.)

Always the kicker. Balancing all the things you want against each other. Then you look the amount you spent on artillery and think should I get another tank or two instead.

Thoughts?

Very refreshing to see more than your usual mantra. Although telling everyone to attack can be entertaining:-)

[c3k]

Bil has updated his description. Apparently, the stream on his right is NOT an obstacle to movement for vehicles or infantry. Points to GaJ.

All of Bil's vehicles are non-turreted. If GaJ can put his ATG's in reverse slope positions, oriented 90^ to the likely axis of advance, he can put a lot of hurt on Bil's vehicles. Elefant, Brumbars, JgdpzIV: all must PIVOT to face a flank threat. Once those ATG's are placed, they're staying there all game. If Bil finds them before they can open up on his vehicles' flanks, then Bil's mortars could neutralize them. So, GaJ needs good placement and good fire discipline. (Assuming they can stay unspotted before they open fire.)

Number analysis: GaJ thinks a stuart would just be cannon fodder. Does the US have anything that can withstand the weaponry Bil is going to unleash? Meaning, is a Sherman any LESS cannon fodder than a Stuart?

AP mines: GaJ identified the blind spots around the right tit. A few AP mines in the sheltered hollows near the base of the tit would be pretty useful.

Hindsight: it all seems so clear.

Ken

(And a big P.S.: my criticism of Bil's setup on the tits is tempered by the realization, as I posted in the original critique, that he may've done that ONLY for the purposes of the AAR.)

[c3k]

A defense setup for GaJ. Bil has his Okra and his Metro and whatever other military jargon he throws down with abandon, then draws on maps like a child on Christmas morning with a new set of markers. Bah. I like to call this defense my "xyz" setup. It's useful whenever there are two parallel axes of advance,separated by a ridge, guarded by two small, but proud, tits.

"X" is the left flank. Stick 2 ATG's there, oriented towards the center, with a ridge in front. Toss a few steady men with 'zooks nearby for close defense.

"Z" is the right flank. This is the same as the left.

If he comes up the middle, X and Z can cover the road.

What's Y? (Who's on first?) Y is all four of the M-10's, located in the middle center, backfield. Kind of like a middle linebacker, they'll stuff the run. Centrally located, they can assist left or right, as needed, then reposition.

If the front of the ATG's is threatened, the M-10's can paste the exposed enemy.

GaJ's lovely little quad .50 should be used for showmanship! Zip in, shred a halftrack, zip back. Boo-yah! A little ma-deuce loving, heading Jerry's way.... Playing peek-a-boo, that machine can rip the halftrack force to pieces. (BIl's riposte will be some area target goodness from a Brumbar. "Ja, und how do you like my grosse gun, ma-deuce? Is big, ja?") GaJ needs to be nimble with his mobile assets.

[Seedorf81]

Bil has updated his description. Apparently, the stream on his right is NOT an obstacle to movement for vehicles or infantry. Points to GaJ.

All of Bil's vehicles are non-turreted.

Ken

Ehm, did you see that Bill has also 4 pzIV's? The H-version.

[Chudacabra]

All of Bil's vehicles are non-turreted. If GaJ can put his ATG's in reverse slope positions, oriented 90^ to the likely axis of advance, he can put a lot of hurt on Bil's vehicles. Elefant, Brumbars, JgdpzIV: all must PIVOT to face a flank threat. Once those ATG's are placed, they're staying there all game. If Bil finds them before they can open up on his vehicles' flanks, then Bil's mortars could neutralize them. So, GaJ needs good placement and good fire discipline. (Assuming they can stay unspotted before they open fire.)

I believe Bil has a platoon of Panzer IVH's, but they're not visible in the screenshots so far. I might be mistaken though.

Should be an interesting battle though. I think I would have bought AT mines over bunkers if I were playing as GaJ though.