Gustav Line Beta AAR Round Two PEANUT GALLERY

[c3k]

Guys, I love the AT talk. Seriously. But...let's talk about GaJ and Bil: right now neither of them have a single AT mine. Nor do they have Churchills, StuGIII's, Tigers, or StuH 42's. Otherwise we're doing a great job of keeping this thread on track!

Onto the subject: I see GaJ talking about moving his Quad .50 forward. Whereas I love a good attack, or aggressive defense, this seems foolhardy. I don't have access to the map, but it looks like the area GaJ may move his Quad .50 through is covered by Bil's tanks/armor. How long do .50 cal. rounds cook off? (I reserve the right to retract this if GaJ's proposed movement is under cover. )

Since Bil is taking the buildings just short of the tits, can GaJ put any indirect fire on them?

Ken

[TheVulture]

I think GaJ wins the opening round of out-guessing your opponent, although I don't know how much difference it will make. The obstacles on the tits are making Bil waste ammo there shelling non-existent troops, and luring his infantry to that position, which is pretty much what GaJ hoped would happen. I guess the real difference maker is how well GaJ manages to kill the troops 'assaulting' the undefended tits. Fooling the enemy is all well and good, but to make it count you need to make him expose troops in a vulnerable way that you can pick off at little cost to yourself. Just hiding somewhere obscure might fool your opponent, but isn't going to affect the outcome of the battle much.

[snake_eye]

This time, GaJ is playing defence and Bil attack, that makes quite a difference. The ground features are rather good for GaJ offering good defensive positions.

About the mines, they might help temporally blocking the road, but knowing their cost and their efficiency, they won’t affect the denying of it. Besides any Axis force standing on the road is at one time or the other in view of the Allied AT guns and or of a mortar spotter.

I don’t think that the Elephant is such a powerful asset, if it comes close to medium range. It will be best used at shooting from long range. Will it be able to shoot at GaJ the best way?, Looking at the landscape pictures I am dubious about that, too much obstacles in its LOS, will obliged Bil to move it closer.

About the Brummbar, it has a terrific 150mm mortar. Its primary role being to assist assaulting grenadier’s in particular, especially in urban area. However, I think and fear that it does not matter how powerful its rounds are, since it has to come in view of its target in order to fire, it will be an easy prey for any AT guns. It won’t stand a chance, against them.

The game does not model an indirect fire possibility, that’s too bad. In that use, the Brummbar would be a fantastic fire asset, being safe from flat trajectories rounds, hidden in an hollow and or behind a crest

About the 50 Quad mounted in the HT. When used in a ground role it has a terrific effect on infantry, trucks and even light tracks. But, if it is fired on, even by an MG, it will retreat, its crew becoming cautious. It will be best to have the HT fire from a flanking position and not from a frontal position more prone to an abundant return fire.

I might be completely wrong, this is why I am eager to read how the battle unfolds on either side.

GaJ really surprised me. Its troops and tracks deployment seem a hard nut to crack. On the other way, I think that Bil is a bit too confident for the time being. Things might change in the coming moves

[$Pec5]

Bil does not seem to be too confident. He is approaching the tit objectives cautiously under a hail of explosive rounds and MG support fire.

That being said, I definitely think that GaJ will have a better chance in this battle compared to the last battle.

I wonder why Bil has separated his forces on both sides of the road.

[snake_eye]

@$Pec5,

Well I wrote that Bil is too confident (for the time being), having seen the way he handled the previous battle, taking the time to do a pretty good Recon (while playing, besides doing a map analysis earlier) before committing its troops and tanks, and having a QRF ready, just in case.

That battle is certainly quite different. Bil has a real disadvantage since he is attacking. As long as GaJ is staying in defence, that will be.

What worries me is the fact that Bil seems to prefer a road penetration, from the Tits, toward the objective. He has given some very good arguments for doing it. Tactically speaking he is right. More precisely he would be totally right if the road did offer some appreciable concealment. It has nearly none on its right side.

In any case if that concealment did exist, he would be in jeopardize near the crossroad at Point 150, since it would be difficult to deploy with efficiency from there toward the objective Santa Maria.

Bil thinks like me that an approach toward hills 109 and 126 is to be considered.

I really think that this is the key to the attack, especially while looking at GaJ deployment. Bil does not know it but certainly consider that it is there. That is why he thinks that from the road he will get some Intel. Not wrong at all.

There is a road behind these hills that will be handy to move close to the objective. GaJ has thought the same. He has one AT, two MG’s, a mortar and a tank around. The PZ IV’s could be deployed toward them along with the Elephant with a most than probable chance to defeat them. From there its another story that is not yet written if it ever comes to be. After all the road attack could be highly successful.

[Rocky Balboa]

I wonder why Bil has separated his forces on both sides of the road.

Bill has not split his force, he has support units on both sides of the road to support the assault on the center objective and he has recon units on both sides of the road to locate GAJ's positions. Once he takes the the center objectives and has the results from his recon, I'm sure he will chose which side he wants to assault on.

Keep in mind that even after he has decided on a route of attack, right or left, he must keep GAJ's forces pinned in position as this will hamper GAJ's ability to maneuver. Also securing the ridge road as he advances will ensure that GAJ can't use the ridge road to fire down into the flanks of Bills attack. Once he finishes his recon, Bill has the luxury of deciding which side he wants to take on and can use the bulk of his force in the assault while providing support from the ridge road.

I personally think the ridge road is more a problem for the defender than the attacker. GAJ's forces are split by the ridge road and the road prevents his split forces from supporting the other. GAJ has basically 2 isolated forces and this is a big C2 problem should he lose the ridge road. GAJ does have his M10's as a mobile response force that he can commit once he sees which direction Bill is coming from. I would also hold back the quad 50 with this mobile force and not commit it too soon. GAJ should make every effort to hold onto the ridge road and not allow Bill to use it as a base of support.

[$Pec5]

Ah I see. Thanks for clarifying

[c3k]

Interesting how Bil assumed that the ridge road would be mined. Perhaps that is almost as good as if it had been mined? I mean, what ommander wouldn't mine or block a road going directly into the heart of his position? (Sorry, GaJ!)

Bil is conducting a textbook attack, IMO. He's got support, both direct and indirect. His center is advancing, and his flanks are covered. Recce is moving into the blind spots. He has 8 AFVs to GaJ's 4 SPATG's. Those 15 cm shells can do a world o'hurt.

GaJ should be cautious about having anything more than a single team in any action spot...

Ken

[Michael Emrys]

GaJ should be cautious about having anything more than a single team in any action spot...

Or even adjacent to one, I'm thinking. Even two spots away from an impact point is asking for trouble.

Michael

[newlife]

So, you guys think the cost of the empty fortifications worth the ammunition Bill is spending on it? I don't know the ammo load out on the firing units.

[slysniper]

Bill has not split his force, he has support units on both sides of the road to support the assault on the center objective and he has recon units on both sides of the road to locate GAJ's positions. Once he takes the the center objectives and has the results from his recon, I'm sure he will chose which side he wants to assault on.

Keep in mind that even after he has decided on a route of attack, right or left, he must keep GAJ's forces pinned in position as this will hamper GAJ's ability to maneuver. Also securing the ridge road as he advances will ensure that GAJ can't use the ridge road to fire down into the flanks of Bills attack. Once he finishes his recon, Bill has the luxury of deciding which side he wants to take on and can use the bulk of his force in the assault while providing support from the ridge road.

I personally think the ridge road is more a problem for the defender than the attacker. GAJ's forces are split by the ridge road and the road prevents his split forces from supporting the other. GAJ has basically 2 isolated forces and this is a big C2 problem should he lose the ridge road. GAJ does have his M10's as a mobile response force that he can commit once he sees which direction Bill is coming from. I would also hold back the quad 50 with this mobile force and not commit it too soon. GAJ should make every effort to hold onto the ridge road and not allow Bill to use it as a base of support.

I feel exactly the same way about this. the terrain aids in the attack more than it does anything for the defender. Bill will be able to swing left or right and bring most of his forces to one side or the other and will then have a huge firepower advantage on one side of the map.

With the unit selected, terrain and objectives. I sure would rather be attacking than defending in this battle. I would not want to be in GAJ positiom if I was looking for a win.

Then there is the fact that Bil is a better player. he is very good at using combined arms and having units in position to support each other correctly, plus he plays aggressively as to how he will move units. GAJ shows some savy and some good concepts but has a ways to go to be at the level that Bil is at. I just hope he gets a little blood this game and is able to make Bil bleed some before he is defeated.

The only thing that would have made this battle much better was if they had to play the other side of the map as is vs each other. That would make for a much closer battle, biut tis not the case

[newlife]

Pretty cool that Gaj just bugged out of the exact spot Bill targeted with MG fire, neither having seen the opposing unit involved. We got psi ops going on.

[Lanzfeld]

Bil writes "I'm convinced now that GaJ is on the reverse slope now as my dismounts are very close..." and "No doubt GaJ is on the reverse slope on the Right Tit as well.."

I love it in this game when you are convinced of one thing only to find out later how wrong you were.

[snake_eye]

@Lanzfeld

That is what FOW "the fog of war" is all about. One instant you think you have the best laid plan to win and next you find out that in reality it is the enemy that has it.

Zooks can not be used inside if you don't have sufficient backward clearance for the blast. It is dangerous to use one from a bedroom and or kitchen, but from an Hotel lobby you can do it. You will burn the walls and the carpet, but that's war.

The Panzerfaust was fired from inside (cellar, room...), but it was rigged and triggered from another place or by a booby trap device. The blast effect is the same than the Zooks.

RPG's can be fire from inside. It derives from late war trials made by the Germans and found by the Russians in 1945

[snake_eye]

Right now, I can not figure out who from Bil and or Gaj is going to make the difference and how. I have a slight preference for GaJ who surprised me by its setting and since he is in defence. However, I can not figure out, how he will fight, that's the unknown.

Bil will certainly surprise us, since he has a real capacity in changing very quickly its plans after a complete analysis of the situation at one moment, taking in account the enemy force and the landscape features. However attacking in that battle is not going to be a piece of cake. The ground features are favorizing the defence. At least that is what I think. I may be wrong.

I am also very curious to see, how the Elephnant and the Brummbar's will fare.

[slysniper]

Right now, I can not figure out who from Bil and or Gaj is going to make the difference and how. I have a slight preference for GaJ who surprised me by its setting and since he is in defence. However, I can not figure out, how he will fight, that's the unknown.

Bil will certainly surprise us, since he has a real capacity in changing very quickly its plans after a complete analysis of the situation at one moment, taking in account the enemy force and the landscape features. However attacking in that battle is not going to be a piece of cake. The ground features are favorizing the defence. At least that is what I think. I may be wrong.

I am also very curious to see, how the Elephnant and the Brummbar's will fare.

Yes, plenty of unknowns, thus what makes it interesting. I am somewhat interested in the AT guns and want to see if Gaj gets good results out of them in the game. They are better at times than in the old CMX1 series, but still can be easy mortar bait also.

But in CMX2 I have had a few AT guns manage to get impressive numbers in kills and also be able to live long enough to do it with arty on the board.

But the trick seems to be in general to being placed in tall grass and far enough back into it to create a great concealment situation and also totally prevents direct fire weapons from being able to lock on the hex as area fire.

[snake_eye]

Bil has just shown its 7th turn movements. The two south hills will be overwatched by the Elephant and some troops at the end of the turn. Will GaJ 76mm AT and or M1O be able to draw fire on them before having some in return ? The M10 can be a real threat, but it won't be able to stay too long on that hill, being a sizable target.

@slysniper

I feel the same about the use of the AT.

The 76mm AT will fare better if doing a flank shot. That does not seem like it is going to happen, the Elephant pathway seems to be set to face the hills. However if the Elephant at the end of the turn, being in view, is hit by a lucky shot of the AT and or M10 on the gun mantlet and or gun barrel it could be put it out of the game, not being able to fire anymore. That happened to me few times with Panthers.

[slysniper]

However if the Elephant at the end of the turn, being in view, is hit by a lucky shot of the AT and or M10 on the gun mantlet and or gun barrel it could be put it out of the game, not being able to fire anymore. That happened to me few times with Panthers.

less than lucky, we had another thread going discussing how often it happens in the game and that it might be that the design of the game mechanics there is off compared to what would happen in real life. Seems way too common of a result.

[snake_eye]

The eighth minute gone, we'll see what will happen on the next turn. Nobody on the Tits, looks like it is inviting an allied artillery barrage. I'll not feel comfortable over there, Tits or not Tits !

[c3k]

GaJ's 76mm ATG setup in the open has been spotted and fired upon. I've found out the hard way that ATG's are impossible to hid when setup like that. Using it to FACE the enemy's approach invites disaster. (Again, I point to the shattered hulks of dozens of ATG's that I've misused to show whereof I speak.) ATG's need to be hidden, and set -as much as possible- to take an advance in the flank.

An ATG on a hill does not protect the hill. An ATG off to the side of the hill, aiming at it, protects the hill.

We can argue about the setup concealment bonus, or lack thereof, for ATG's, but that won't change how it works right now.

I'm glad GaJ is going to open up with that mortar. He needs to get some ordnance on target! Bil needs infantry to control; tanks are to destroy. He's got the firepower, but he is limited in manpower. GaJ, of course, doesn't know that, but every team he kills gains him an edge in the endgame.

Bil's doing a very nice job of isolating his immediate objective, laying down suppression on likely points of resistance, and keeping some overwatch for targets of opportunity.

The Hardenberger machine grinds ever forward!

(sig material available for a nominal licensing fee. )

Ken

[snake_eye]

An ATG on a hill does not protect the hill. An ATG off to the side of the hill, aiming at it, protects the hill.

Bil's doing a very nice job of isolating his immediate objective, laying down suppression on likely points of resistance, and keeping some overwatch for targets of opportunity.

/quote]

I agree for the correct ATG setup that should have been done by GaJ.

Bil is doing a normal tactical drill for the attack on the Tits, but for the time being, besides closing toward some good overwatched spot, nothing happened.

He has not yet anymore Intel than he had earlier.

If GaJ does not react in the next turn, besides firing its mortar, against the coming Elefant that could give the lead to Bil.

[Freyberg]

I feel like, in an attack/defend battle, assets like AT guns are a bit 'naked'. With a little preparation, they would be quite well camouflaged, and more difficult to spot, until they fired, than is modeled in the game. ...though I guess that gun was quite out in the open.

[c3k]

I feel like, in an attack/defend battle, assets like AT guns are a bit 'naked'. With a little preparation, they would be quite well camouflaged, and more difficult to spot, until they fired, than is modeled in the game. ...though I guess that gun was quite out in the open.

Yeah, it'd seem like an ATG setup in defense should have some sort of better camo bonus. I don't know what the differences are right now. I'd guess that a well camouflaged ATG wouldn't be spotted until after it had opened fire, and then only after a few rounds, depending on the terrain. (Shells can be tracked by their wake in tall grass, for example.)

[Freyberg]

I'd love it if the game modeled the appearance of camouflaged defensive weapons.

I was also a little surprised GaJ couldn't see Bill's infantry moving forward, they weren't crawling. I feel like mine get spotted pretty quick when they advance - I wonder how he does it. Is it because he uses pauses on the waypoints?

[Michael Emrys]

Yeah, it'd seem like an ATG setup in defense should have some sort of better camo bonus. I don't know what the differences are right now. I'd guess that a well camouflaged ATG wouldn't be spotted until after it had opened fire, and then only after a few rounds, depending on the terrain. (Shells can be tracked by their wake in tall grass, for example.)

You have to keep in mind that the 76 mm is a fairly big piece of ordnance and not at all easy to conceal. That's one more reason why in GaJ's shoes I would have preferred to buy 57 mm.

Michael