Monte Cassino

[Sequoia]

I was just wondering if it would be possible to re-create the town Of Cassino and the Monastary on top of the mountain in the editor, or would the required map and elevation change be too big?

[JonS]

On the same map? Yes, you'd easily be able to fit both on a single map. The diff-alt is only around 4-500m, and the Monastary is only about 1km west of the town. In fact, you could get the whole of Monte Casino township and all the way over to the ridge about 1km west of of the monastary on the same map, if you really wanted to.

Actually making that map, though, would be anything but easy :eek:

[MikeyD]

There are any number of AMAZING maps under construction currently. I'm not making any of them, myself, so can't comment specifically. One small issue with a full Cassino/monastary map would be the sheer volume of forces needed to stock it properly. Outside of the scope of the game engine. I can imagine, considering the nature of the fighting, one or two 'master maps' being made then chopped up into several discrete battle for discrete forces with discrete objectives. A single infantry company isn't going to make it from the foot of the mountain to the monastary center on one go.

[JonS]

the sheer volume of forces needed to stock it properly.

True. There were multiple divisions, on both sides, fighting in that small area. That's the one thing about Monte Casino that CM can't really cope with.

[Fenris]

I was traveling up Italy to Rome about 10 years ago. Sitting on the train, my brain firmly in neutral watching the world go by I spotted a building high up on a rocky ridge. I'd never been there before, did not have it in mind and had no idea we were going that way but I recognised it right away.

I got quite excited, it was pretty cool... Well at least I thought so, my future wife did a great "that's nice" giving the perfect impression that we'd been together for 30+ years.

-Fenris

[altipueri]

Isn't it monastery in both English and American?

[Sequoia]

Isn't it monastery in both English and American?

You're quite right. It's monastery even in 'merican. I have to assume the others copied my original spelling error.

[permanent666]

i read a bit about the battle and the monastery and came to the conclusion that you cannot model the destroyed monastery with current means. I am wondering if they will include some new rubble flavor objects or change the way rubble-buildings look like?

[ChrisND]

It is possible to model the elevation changes for this area in the editor. I just made a quick prototype map of the eastern slope to see what it would look like, and it is definitely workable, although it will require a very large amount of fiddling with the elevations and winding roads to get it to look right. After all, the extremely steep slopes in this area are a bit of an outlier for the battlefields that CM is designed to depict!

A huge map covering both the monastery and the Cassino town is doable, but will be quite difficult when you factor in the saturation of combat units, the size of the town, the distances involved, and the elevation changes. It's probably better to make smaller maps focused on the important battlefields.

The heights to the northwest of the monastery are definitely doable. I know because the map for it has already been made. One of the four module campaigns, the Polish campaign, will cover this map for the fourth battle of Monte Cassino. This map is about 2kmx2km large and is centered on Phantom Ridge, Cavendish Road, Snakeshead Ridge, and the Albaneta Farm. At least, the master map is that large. Actual scenario maps will be smaller chunks of it.

We have no plans to make a special building structure for the Cassino monastery. It's huge, geometrically complex for a CM building, initially intact and then mostly rubbled after February, and not actually the scene of any major Combat Mission-scale battles itself. It'd be a tremendous waste of artist and programming resources to make. Modular buildings butted together will suffice and still present one heck of an intimidating structure.

[Wodin]

I understand it's too much work and time to make but it is a shame we get no Monastery.

[Buzz]

It is possible to model the elevation changes for this area in the editor. I just made a quick prototype map of the eastern slope to see what it would look like, and it is definitely workable, although it will require a very large amount of fiddling with the elevations and winding roads to get it to look right. After all, the extremely steep slopes in this area are a bit of an outlier for the battlefields that CM is designed to depict!

A huge map covering both the monastery and the Cassino town is doable, but will be quite difficult when you factor in the saturation of combat units, the size of the town, the distances involved, and the elevation changes. It's probably better to make smaller maps focused on the important battlefields.

The heights to the northwest of the monastery are definitely doable. I know because the map for it has already been made. One of the four module campaigns, the Polish campaign, will cover this map for the fourth battle of Monte Cassino. This map is about 2kmx2km large and is centered on Phantom Ridge, Cavendish Road, Snakeshead Ridge, and the Albaneta Farm. At least, the master map is that large. Actual scenario maps will be smaller chunks of it.

We have no plans to make a special building structure for the Cassino monastery. It's huge, geometrically complex for a CM building, initially intact and then mostly rubbled after February, and not actually the scene of any major Combat Mission-scale battles itself. It'd be a tremendous waste of artist and programming resources to make. Modular buildings butted together will suffice and still present one heck of an intimidating structure.

Thanks for the Monte Cassino map info Normal Dude. Actual scenario maps in smaller chunks in a campaign would IMO not only be more easily played on moderate CPUs but more in keeping with the multiple battles over 4 months.

[MikeyD]

The Monastery ('abbey' is so much easier to spell), for all its fame, is really rather dull looking in general outlines. You can certainly do a 'good enough' job for game purposes with modular pieces. As Steve once said long ago, we're not out to make a dedicated landscaping sim.

Oh, about the slope of the ground leading up the winding road. Behold, in all its Google Earth Glory! The slope angle almost 45 degrees.

[Buzz]

"The slope angle almost 45 degrees." That qualifies as steep or N.H. rugged.

Now those even more rugged "Maine-iacs" might do this in the snow without boots;) but it looks pretty darn steep to me especially if folks are trying to shoot me on the way up!

[Broadsword56]

The Monastery ('abbey' is so much easier to spell), for all its fame, is really rather dull looking in general outlines. You can certainly do a 'good enough' job for game purposes with modular pieces.

I was thinking a similar thought about how CMFI might re-create the Tabaccificio Fioche (The Tobacco Factory) near Salerno, another architecturally distinctive and infamous building complex that featured so prominently in the fighting on mainland Italy:

http://www.wwiithenandnow.com/index.php/italy/salerno-operation-avalanche/persano

(a much-loved community-made scenario in CMAK, which I hope we'll see return with a vengeance in CMFI Gustav Line)

[MikeyD]

it looks pretty darn steep to me

I recall someone mentioning that he once did a vacation tour of Normandy battle locations, especially in the Caen area, I think. After reading for years about the "battle for Hill #XXX" he got to the location only to ask 'Where's the hill?' I guess the least little rise becomes a significant obstacle of there's Tiger tanks using it for hull-down firing.

[Buzz]

Baxter state park in Maine has some fairly rugged climbs. Some sections are very steep but I don't remember any in a week of hiking we did that approached 45 degrees. Some of the boulder scrambles getting up to the top of Katahdin may have been close :confused: but these were literally foot hold boost up and on the upper boulder and no one was shooting at us. We just had day packs no lugging battle equipment. Add weather like a thunderstorm and almost zero visibility (like when we came down off the top of Katahdin) and no one shooting at us it makes one appreciate just how difficult Mountain fighting is. Then think back to WWII and the high tech "body armor" these folks didn't have. Get wounded on the side of a 45 degree slope and you don't get a air lifted off the side of the 45 degree slope.

[herr_oberst]

I'm just happy that BF came up with Cassino (or some variation thereof), and put a temporary end to my attempts to find period maps online and start building a scenario of my own.

I haven't given up completely (you never know what the Library of Congress in DC might have in it's map archives), but that requires a day off work to go and scrounge around, which are in desperately short supply lately (like since November).

[noxnoctum]

There are any number of AMAZING maps under construction currently. I'm not making any of them, myself, so can't comment specifically. One small issue with a full Cassino/monastary map would be the sheer volume of forces needed to stock it properly. Outside of the scope of the game engine. I can imagine, considering the nature of the fighting, one or two 'master maps' being made then chopped up into several discrete battle for discrete forces with discrete objectives. A single infantry company isn't going to make it from the foot of the mountain to the monastary center on one go.

More info please ?

[noxnoctum]

The Monastery ('abbey' is so much easier to spell), for all its fame, is really rather dull looking in general outlines. You can certainly do a 'good enough' job for game purposes with modular pieces. As Steve once said long ago, we're not out to make a dedicated landscaping sim.

Oh, about the slope of the ground leading up the winding road. Behold, in all its Google Earth Glory! The slope angle almost 45 degrees.

I don't know much about Monte Cassino in general. Were they assaulting up that hill specifically?

If so wow... that's steep.

[Michael Emrys]

I don't know much about Monte Cassino in general. Were they assaulting up that hill specifically?

If so wow... that's steep.

They tried it that way. ISTR it was the Kiwis, JonS will know. A lot of men died trying before the generals got a clue and called that one off. What finally succeeded was a more indirect approach. If you can find a copy, there is an old issue of After the Battle magazine with a long article describing the series of fights, complete in their usual fashion with lots of then and now photos and a pretty good map or two.

Michael

[Chek]

The Kiwis retook Castle Hill after the Nisei(those guys were just plain nuts) had originally outpaced the US advance and were forced to pull back.They snuck up at night, surprised the German sentries and overwhelmed the defenders. They then handed it over to the Indian Division who got the living hell kicked out of them but managed to hang on to it. Castle hill was crucial to launching an attack on Monte Cassino itsself.The NZers spent most of there time capturing and holding the township.

Everybody had a crack at it starting with the Goums attempting out flank it and suffering a staggering 70% casualties and finishing with the Poles making a direct attack.The Germans had been outflanked at this point and were falling back but even so it was no mean feat getting up that hill and into the Cassino, the climb alone was impressive.

There were numerous attacks and outflanking attempts across rivers,through mined marshlands,over steep narrow tracks with no cover, thru the township itself it was an epic Infantry battle with a lot of close quarters melee in abhorrent conditions.

In my youth I worked with a vet who'd been there. I could usually coax an anecdote out here and there about his various experiences(did you know that the bodies in brewed up tanks smell like roast pork and an 88 shell can magically make a man disappear)but when it came to Cassino all he could muster was "not good", followed by a somewhat lengthy silence as I waited for him to elaborate.

[Sybma]

Triggered by Chek's story, what are good books to read on Monte Casino, or broader Gustav? I've read Peter Caddick Adams recent book. More tips? Like to read from both sides and all Allies (Rick Atkinson focuses to much on US for example (to my taste)).

Any good suggestions?

Best.

[JonS]

Carlo D'Este "Fatal Decision" is good

Ian Gooderson "Hard way to make a war" is very good (whole Italian campaign)

Shelford Bidwell "Tug of War" (again, the whole Italian campaign)

[Chek]

Peter Caddick-Adams 10 Armies in hell is on my list to read.Want to finish Ian Blackwells Battle for Sicily 1st though,then maybe something on Salerno.