Newbie Questions

[WindyCityZeke]

Hi guys,

Having played Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) for 20+ years and having that as my only point of reverence to this game, I was wondering about some things in this game.

AFVs: Is there a way to order tanks to just fire their MGs at a target?

Ht: Can you reload infantry on a halftrack? Can Infantry inside a Ht fire out of that vehicle or do they need to 'Open'.

Buildings: From what I've seen so far, if there are no windows on a side of a building you cannot see out that side. Correct? Wish the floating icons told you what level the guys where on.

Icons: Wish the icons told you if the unit was 'out of action' in other words what state you can determine it is.

LOS: so far it's been mind-boggling to me in this game. I'm at a loss as to why some units can see others while another can't. Bocage is the most confusing, but hey it was in ASL too.

OBA: Don't leave home without it!!

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions, thanks for the help. Great Game!

[SlowMotion]

AFV: use Target Light

Ht: yes, put some move command so the last waypoint is in the vehicle. Infantry can fire at least from some vehicles, can't remember more details.

Buildings: normally they can't see out if there's no window, but I think they CAN see out of some buildings like barns

icons: I think unit's floating icon is lighter than normally when they are in bad shape. And the icon flashes when taking damage

[MikeyD]

AFV: 'Target Light'

Ht: Yes and Yes, though infantry firing over a HT side is frowned upon because that's one way to kill a whole squad with one shot.

Buildings: Though the're somewhat abstracted, especially at very close range, for the most part no windows means no LOS/LOF.

Icons: If an icon fades to see-through that means the unit has gone out of command, perhaps because they're supresses or panicked, or perhaps because they're in the middle of a particular action like boarding a vehicle.

LOS: Some units are veterans, some are green, some have binoculars, some don't, some are lying prone in tall grass and some are up on one knee. It might even make a difference which direction they're facing.

OBA: The Oklahoma Bar Association? Oregon Business association?

[womble]

Hi guys,

Having played Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) for 20+ years and having that as my only point of reverence to this game, I was wondering about some things in this game.

AFVs: Is there a way to order tanks to just fire their MGs at a target?

Yep. "Target Light" does that very thing. If your tank has a pintle mounted MG (like the .50cal on most (?all?) Shermans) that will fire if the tank is "opened up".

Ht: Can you reload infantry on a halftrack? Can Infantry inside a Ht fire out of that vehicle or do they need to 'Open'.

You can load pretty much any leg element into any vehicle that they'll fit in. If it's a towed piece, the vehicle needs room for the crew to hop on, to be able to hitch the gun. I believe the "WAD" is that infantry can fire from vehicles, and have seen that happen in previous versions. I've hit a snag lately where they can't fire from vehicles (and neither can the vehicle's weapon be fired), but haven't had the chance to test to see whether it's me or a bug introduced in v1.11.

Buildings: From what I've seen so far, if there are no windows on a side of a building you cannot see out that side. Correct?

Generally, yes. There are, AIUI, some maps where the windows and doors don't line up with the graphics, or at least there were. Also, "barns" are assumed to be badly maintained, or built with air holes so the hay dries or sumfink, and you can shoot out of even windowless faces.

Wish the floating icons told you what level the guys where on.

That's not an uncommon wish

Icons: Wish the icons told you if the unit was 'out of action' in other words what state you can determine it is.

An icon will go yellow if you click on a unit that reports to the same immediate HQ (or the HQ's immediate reports that aren't other HQs, if it's an HQ itself. It will go bright if it can see the enemy unit you've got selected. It will go orange if you double-click on another unit in the same sub-heirarchy. It will flash if its unit takes casualties. It will fade/become transparent if for some reason it won't be accepting new orders just now. Mostly that's because they are "Shaken" or "Panic"ing, but sometimes it'll be because they're committed to mounting a vehicle and will not be deterred... Apparently, maintaining the floating icons is a huge job for the game engine, and even adding the v2 Fog of War variations was a lot of work. When you consider how many different variables a player might want to be "readily visible", you'll see that a) putting that much info on-screen might be found very cluttered, and adding even some of those elements to Floating Icons would be even more work and strain on your poor CPU!

LOS: so far it's been mind-boggling to me in this game. I'm at a loss as to why some units can see others while another can't. Bocage is the most confusing, but hey it was in ASL too.

It's important to realise that in this game, there's three kinds of seeing: LOS means photons travelling in a straight line from the place you're looking can reach at least one of the sets of eyeballs you've got looking that way; LOF (line of fire) means the unit's primary weapon (if it has one) can bear on that point; spotting means that your unit has realised what is there. It's that last one that's confusing, usually, since sometimes a unit won't "Spot" even what looks to you like an enemy mooching about in the open. But when a potential target is behind concealment (different from cover; cover will stop bullets, whereas concealment only stops photons) there's a better chance your spotter won't see it.

Also, most of the time, a unit needs to have at least someone "spotting" (look in the bottom left corner) to be in with a good chance of finding something they might have LOS too. Spotting as an activity is exclusive of other activities, so if your pTruppen are moving or Hiding, they'll probably not see as much (Truppen do maintain some situational awareness to varying degress during other tasks). So it's good practice to let your troops do some sitting around, so they can catch up on what's going on around them. Preferably in some cover/concealment of their own.

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions, thanks for the help. Great Game!

Questions like that will always get answers You're welcome, and welcome to a game that might eat your life.

[Battlefront.com]

Welcome!

If you have tried a demo for CMBN you might want to try the CMFI demo. If you don't find an answer in one you might find it in another. We've tried hard to include a little bit of everything in the Demos, but not necessarily all in one specific scenario.

Having played Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) for 20+ years and having that as my only point of reverence to this game, I was wondering about some things in this game.

You'll find a ton of SL/ASL fans here, so you're in good company already.

AFVs: Is there a way to order tanks to just fire their MGs at a target?

Yes. And with the 2.0 features you can even use a new Command which basically amounts to "fire a couple of bursts, then see if anything shakes out to shoot at".

In addition, your virtual pixel crews try to use or not their weaponry in ways that make the most amount of sense. For example, not using AP on an infantry target unless there's no HE available. Or using an HE round on truck instead of AP.

Ht: Can you reload infantry on a halftrack? Can Infantry inside a Ht fire out of that vehicle or do they need to 'Open'.

Infantry in HTs will use their small arms to engage targets when they think there's a good reason to. Otherwise they like having the armor that someone paid a lot of money to provide for them

Buildings: From what I've seen so far, if there are no windows on a side of a building you cannot see out that side. Correct?

Correct.

Wish the floating icons told you what level the guys where on.

I think after you've played a little while you'll find this isn't much of an issue. I think I can say that pretty safely since I've not seen this request (at all?) over many years of CM play.

Icons: Wish the icons told you if the unit was 'out of action' in other words what state you can determine it is.

There is some feedback from the icons depending on context, but I definitely agree it will be better when we can provide a wider variety of information. We've got a nice plan for this, however everything takes time to do and so far other things have come ahead of this.

LOS: so far it's been mind-boggling to me in this game. I'm at a loss as to why some units can see others while another can't. Bocage is the most confusing, but hey it was in ASL too.

I'd say, more than anything, what separates the great CM players from the mediocre ones is the understanding of LOS, LOF, Spotting, and C2 (command and control). It's definitely easier to understand than it is to master.

Basic stuff... LOS and LOF are separate concepts. You can have knowledge of an enemy's position but not have a good enough shot at the particular where the target actually is. However, you can't have LOF without LOS.

Spotting, on the other hand, is completely separate from a mechanics standpoint. Any two spots can theoretically see each other, but that doesn't mean they spot what is there. However, LOS is always two ways. Which means if you can see a point on the map you can theoretically spot what is there. Just as an enemy in that spot can theoretically spot you. Whether either or the other spots is a separate determination which involves a LOT of factors.

Also separate, but related is Combat Mission's "Relative Spotting" model. 1st Platoon waaaaaaaay over on the other side of the map might be able to see the same terrain as 2nd Platoon, but just because 2nd Platoon sees something doesn't automatically mean 1st Platoon sees it. 1st Platoon either has to spot it on its own or has to be made aware of it through C2 links. In this case 2nd Platoon passing information to the Company HQ and then the Company HQ passing it back down to 1st Platoon. Tricky stuff and situationally dependent on many factors. Some forces inherently have better C2 capabilities than others (radio kits especially), which is an extra challenge when playing the more spartan forces.

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions, thanks for the help. Great Game!

You'll find the group here anxious to help out and not at all adverse to answering basic questions.

Enjoy.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

heh... it's always nice to see CMers with answers that are as good as the ones I provided

Steve

[WindyCityZeke]

Thanks a TON! so far guys, it's nice to see that all the help I gave other players over the years in ASL is being rewarded back. Karma, gotta love it. Also, it's amazing how much more you can get out of a manual after spending 10 hours playing a game.

And yes, this game is eating my life right now. Thanks!

[Lanzfeld]

About buildings with no windows or doors on one side...

I believe that the more you shoot up that buliding then units eventually CAN have LOS/LOF through solid walls to simulate holes in the wall.

[altipueri]

Is there a reason I can't have the icons off and all the unit bases lit up?

This has long bugged me because I loath the icons as I think the unit is where the icon is and not below, which may mean it is this side of a wall or hedge and not that; whereas a lit up base would show me where it is and which way it is facing.

I raise this because womble says in post 4 the icons require lots of computer power, so having them off would be good.

[simast]

Can Infantry inside a Ht fire out of that vehicle

Here is an example:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1411317&postcount=679

But I have seen them firing to the sides as well.

[womble]

I think after you've played a little while you'll find this isn't much of an issue.

While this is largely true (the transparency of the building your pTruppen are in generaly allows a good idea, once you're used to what you're lookin' at), this...

I think I can say that pretty safely since I've not seen this request (at all?) over many years of CM play.

...says you've missed (some of at least) a couple of "interface improvements" threads, perhaps. The request for more concrete info to be displayed on the troops' elevation wasn't for floating icons, it was suggested the info could be shown in the unit detail pane, the request for some way other than counting floors to determine what storey a unit is at has been made.

[Reaper28]

Not trying to be rude... but did you bother to read the manual?? Alot of the basics are covered with tips in the tutorial missions.

Can't believe no one mentioned to actually look at the UI to see your units status... It tells you everything there as far as morale damage C2.

Use target arcs to cover a specific Cone you want to shoot at or hold shift while using it and it will make a radius of cover.

check these out too the tactics series:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=armchair+general+combat+mission&oq=armchair+gener&gs_l=youtube.1.2.0l6.557.3520.0.5663.14.7.0.7.7.0.164.875.3j4.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.nnohP7cMGHc

[WindyCityZeke]

Thanks for the link. Yes, I have read through the manual, and I played through and read through the training campaign. Sorry to ask such newbie basic questions. I don't remember every single thing I read especially a new game.

As for unit status, I was thinking about the icons, not the UI, that I know. duh.

Not trying to be rude... but did you bother to read the manual?? Alot of the basics are covered with tips in the tutorial missions.

Can't believe no one mentioned to actually look at the UI to see your units status... It tells you everything there as far as morale damage C2.

Use target arcs to cover a specific Cone you want to shoot at or hold shift while using it and it will make a radius of cover.

check these out too the tactics series:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=armchair+general+combat+mission&oq=armchair+gener&gs_l=youtube.1.2.0l6.557.3520.0.5663.14.7.0.7.7.0.164.875.3j4.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.nnohP7cMGHc

[John Kettler]

WindyCityZeke,

Welcome aboard!

Speaking as someone who played SL and COI, this is something altogether different. For starters, the battlefield is infinitely more complex, as you've discovered with LOS and LOF. It's also highly unpredictable, as opposed to the far more deterministic, quantifiable system you're used to.

It's much easier to let your AFVs and antitank weapons auto target than to try to figure out LOS for yourself. This comes from frustratingly won experience and numerous AFV losses, coupled with sage advice from those who suffered before I did.

If you've upgraded to 2.0, you have Cover Armor Arc at your disposal, with which you can keep your guys from prematurely opening fire and forcing them to concentrate on armor, with better results coming from higher quality, in better shape troops, preferably in command. This keeps your antitank weapons from firing on relatively unimportant targets and from way outside effective range. You can also use it to very effectively set up historically correct armor formations in which each AFV covers a particular azimuth sector in the advance or retreat, with some overlap in coverage to prevent gaps. This looks really impressive when you see the armored formation on the move.

You might as well get used to seeing German tanks firing on the move, though they couldn't. This is how the game treats firing from the short halt, and it's more than a bit jarring visually. It used to be horribly accurate but has since been toned down somewhat.

While there are indeed vehicles and armor which can carry all sorts of things inside them, please be advised there is no external carrying of men or gear atop AFVs. I don't care if you've got a picture of a StuG III with two dozen PanzerGrenadiers aboard rolling down a Normandy road, you simply can't do it. Nor can you put a fireteam on the back of a Stuart and bust hedgerows while your "Tank descents" spray the hedgerows to keep the Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts at bay, as was also done historically. We could in the CMx1 games, but try as we might, we couldn't get it here. Part of the problem is that the animations would've been a big project in and of themselves. That and BFC didn't see a need for it. Recognize also that German AFV's pivoting in place is NOT correct, is glacially slow and can and will get your turretless armor killed. Where possible, plot short movements and turns to get the coverage you need. Of course, if the Americans get the drop on you...

This thread, in which I describe my own experiences with CMBN, may prove useful to you.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105379

Regards,

John Kettler

[WindyCityZeke]

John, thanks again. Very useful stuff there. Been playing a lot today, had one experience where a US MG held off a bunch of HTs and the HTs didn't have sight to them to fire back. Figured I'd open up the HTs to see if that mattered and it did, but they all panicked and ran away like little girls. Finally flanked that puppy with a Panther. Should have taken a screen shot of that one. The MG was looking through two low Bocage rows and was in a foxhole.

This game really is addictive! Glad I found it, thanks to the guys on the 'Rise of Flight' and IL2 forums.

Oh yea, one more thing, I'm running 2.0 and the CW Package.

[John Kettler]

WindyCityZeke,

Happy to assist! Given you're running 2.0 (we hope after installing 1.11), you now have more total features and game options at your disposal than do the CMFI players. Sounds like you got shots into the HTs from below the LOS and LOF of the MG or MGs mounted on the HT, but the higher infantry on them did have LOS and LOF but couldn't take much advantage from it and lost the exchange of fire.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Macisle]

WindyCityZeke,

Wecome to CM from another ASL'er. IMHO, these two games, each in their own medium, are the two greatest games ever made. You're going to have countless hours of pure gaming pleasure.

As other folks mentioned, the Armchair General series is excellent and a must-see. I don't think this link has been posted yet, though:

It's for CMBN v1, but it's an excellent primer for the newbie and even as time links by topic (click show more). If you have V2.0, some things may differ a bit, but the video is still very valid and helpful, I think.

Like the ASL world, you'll find some of the coolest/nicest/most helpful people you'll ever meet on this forum. But you'll also encounter a small number who always seem to see pee in their cornflakes.

Never hesitate to ask a question. Like ASL, this game is DEEP.

All the best,

Macisle

[Doug Williams]

It's much easier to let your AFVs and antitank weapons auto target than to try to figure out LOS for yourself.

Yes, this is something that can be hard to get used to, if you are accustomed to games where you have to micromanage every action of every unit, but once you understand it, you will do better. I rarely issue target commands to any of my units, but I very often give them target arcs.

[easytarget]

Not trying to be rude... but did you bother to read the manual?? Alot of the basics are covered with tips in the tutorial missions.

Can't believe no one mentioned to actually look at the UI to see your units status... It tells you everything there as far as morale damage C2.

Use target arcs to cover a specific Cone you want to shoot at or hold shift while using it and it will make a radius of cover.

check these out too the tactics series:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=armchair+general+combat+mission&oq=armchair+gener&gs_l=youtube.1.2.0l6.557.3520.0.5663.14.7.0.7.7.0.164.875.3j4.7.0...0.0...1ac.1.nnohP7cMGHc

Chill out, answers to these questions, in fact any questions raised in this forum about game play, are read by more people than you think and are therefore always useful discussions.

In fact I'd go so far as to call them the Pièce de résistance of this forum, and/or Raison d'être.

[mjkerner]

"Also, it's amazing how much more you can get out of a manual after spending 10 hours playing a game."

LOL, yes, it is amazing, isn't it. That's how I've always learned games. I mean, you gotta know what to ask/look for, right?

Welcome aboard

[WindyCityZeke]

Hi guys,

Just some thoughts and observations after playing the last two days. Played through a scenario called 'Le Desert' and all during the two times I played it I was cursing out my Ht's as they didn't/wouldn't drive in a straight lines toward the WPs I was giving them, in a nice 'open' area of the map. Looked like the 'keystone cops' driving all those things. Was able to get a German victory on the second playing. Went to start another scenario and realized I had the trees turned off from the first time I played three scenarios ago, went back to the last saved game of 'Le Desert' and noticed why all the things I couldn't understand happened the way they did. It's a whole different world out there with trees! So if you turn trees off they'll stay off no matter which battle you have loaded.

A couple of other cool things I noticed and watched happen. Knocked out a Tank Destroyer only to have it cook off rounds and kill off a few of my guys who had been given WPs past it that same turn. No, No, No....crap! Saw a individual man with a PF laying on the ground with his head to the dirt looking right. Tank pulls up 30 meters to his left and he couldn't see it.

Many more things keep amazing me about how detailed this game is.

I have been giving fire commands to my tanks to fire at buildings that look vacant, they weren't firing into those buildings with just arcs assigned. Good thing cause they softened up those buildings very well, killing a few units and making the others surrender when I entered them.

[John Kettler]

WindyCityZeke,

I, too, have made the same mistake of turning off the trees, only to wind up undone by what happened as a result. Notably, I completely screwed up Attack at Dawn, and you can read that via going to my link earlier in this thread.

Regards,

John Kettler

[weapon2010]

Speaking of asl, back in the day of early cm1 there use to be a slew of asl scenarios converted to cm to choose from, that would be so cool if we could see some converted to cmbn/cw moving forward into mg.

[WindyCityZeke]

Yep, I used to design ASL scenarios and did a ton of playtesting back in the day. Once I get a handle on this game I'd love to go back and convert some of those to CMBN.

John, been reading your thread a few pages a day. Good stuff.

[Doug Williams]

Yep, I used to design ASL scenarios and did a ton of playtesting back in the day. Once I get a handle on this game I'd love to go back and convert some of those to CMBN.

This is something I would *love* to see, as a former SL/ASL player.

BTW, Alt/T will toggle through the three stages of "tree display", which are (1) see all the trees, all the time, (2) see tree trunks of those trees close to your "floating camera", see entire trees further away, and (3) trees completely invisible. I have mine set to (2) most of the time.