Defensive Setups - How Long?

[GerryCMBB]

Hello All:

How long on average do you spend on your defensive setup for small versus medium versus large battles? Just trying to get a general idea.

Thanks in advance,

Gerry

[Erwin]

Hard to answer easily. If you are competitive, it all depends on how hard the determination of LOS from key positions may be. And that depends on the map.

[GerryCMBB]

I ask as someone on another thread said they spent 6 hours, IIRC, on a setup. I probably spend less than an hour, maybe closer to a half-hour.

Gerry

[Vanir Ausf B]

Depends on map and force size, but I can easily spend an hour or more just moving the camera over the map at level 1 or 2, getting a feel for the lay of the land as ideas percolate in my head while occasionally plotting a movement point somewhere to check LOS. Once a general plan is formulated placing a battalion size force and plotting first turn moves takes me another 1-2 hours. So for a large QB I'd say 3-4 hours.

[Badger73]

I spend enough time to group units together by C2 somewhere large enough to organize all the squads by platoons and (if a larger battle), all the platoons by companies. Then I look to see which units have what assets. Finally, I review the mission and terrain to figure out where to best deploy specific units. Usually 30-45 minutes. Sometimes up to an hour. Then (because I play WEGO), I need to run one turn before creating my first save game for that scenario.

I don't have 6-hour blocks of time for setup but I usually allocate at least an hour to do so. Good luck and good gaming!

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think a lot may depend on if you feel the setup phase is a necessary evil you have to go through to get to the fun parts or if you enjoy it for its own sake. I could probably cut my setup time in half if I tried, but I enjoy the planning process so I don't mind taking my time.

[Broadsword56]

+1 to all of the above.

The only thing I'd add is that IMHO, deployment is at least half the battle -- maybe more -- when it comes to defense -- not only in CM but IRL.

The attacker can improvise to a certain extent. But the defender will really pay a steep price if a potential avenue of approach is left unwatched/uncovered, outposts are poorly sited, fighting positions aren't mutually supporting, defenders don't have covered escape routes, alternate firing positions and rally points, etc.

Not to say one has to do all this -- since it's a game, and supposed to be fun. But I've often spent an hour or more on a (battalion) setup and still I often feel as if I'm overlooking something important.

Ideally, the nature of the battle/scenario should govern a lot of this -- because there's a huge difference in a situation where a commander has all night or several days to set up and improve a defense, and those where, say, an attacking force has paused and is making a hasty defense to brace for an expected counterattack at any moment.

From what I read in WWII books, experienced troops started digging in the moment they stopped anywhere longer than the time it took to brew a pot of tea. And, the longer the troops remained in a position, the scrapes became slit trenches and foxholes. As time permitted, they'd start dragging tree trunks or barn doors over their holes for overhead cover, pile on some dirt, do some camouflage, etc. By then a higher commander would likely have visited the position and critiqued the positioning of the AT guns and HMGs. With more time they might even clear some trees and obstacles to make clearer fields of fire. And, of course, if Engineers were present, they'd start stringing wire, laying mines, sandbags, digging in the AT guns and AFVs, etc.

One thing I try to do in the scenarios I make is have good, logical deployments for both sides already set up in the scenario editor. The players can change them in the battle's deployment phase, of course, but I like to save the player time and not just dump a lot of troops into a disorganized pile on the map. Everyone appreciates it when a battle is ready to just load and play, if a player doesn't feel in the mood to spend a lot of time on the setup.

[JonS]

One thing I try to do in the scenarios I make is have good, logical deployments for both sides already set up in the scenario editor. The players can change them in the battle's deployment phase, of course, but I like to save the player time and not just dump a lot of troops into a disorganized pile on the map.

Even just setting them up in 'parade ground' formation - by platoon, company, and battalion - can save a TON of time.

Sometimes I leave it in the parade ground formation because I don't want to inadvertently leak FOW information that can be inferred based on how I - as designer - would deploy the troops.

[GerryCMBB]

We really appreciate when this is done. Saves a lot of time.

Gerry

P.S. I enjoyed Le Desert.

Even just setting them up in 'parade ground' formation - by platoon, company, and battalion - can save a TON of time.

Sometimes I leave it in the parade ground formation because I don't want to inadvertently leak FOW information that can be inferred based on how I - as designer - would deploy the troops.

[LongLeftFlank]

The only thing I'd add is that IMHO, deployment is at least half the battle -- maybe more -- when it comes to defense -- not only in CM but IRL.

The attacker can improvise to a certain extent. But the defender will really pay a steep price if a potential avenue of approach is left unwatched/uncovered, outposts are poorly sited, fighting positions aren't mutually supporting, defenders don't have covered escape routes, alternate firing positions and rally points, etc.

Yeah, it took me a while to recover from the brain muscle I pulled trying to lay out a defense for that Le Hamel nightmare map! I think that's what drove me to put bocage aside for a bit.

[Broadsword56]

Yeah, it took me a while to recover from the brain muscle I pulled trying to lay out a defense for that Le Hamel nightmare map! I think that's what drove me to put bocage aside for a bit.

Well, LLF, I know sburke appreciated your contribution, because he ended up winning the battle!

[c3k]

Even just setting them up in 'parade ground' formation - by platoon, company, and battalion - can save a TON of time.

Sometimes I leave it in the parade ground formation because I don't want to inadvertently leak FOW information that can be inferred based on how I - as designer - would deploy the troops.

As a player, I REALLY appreciate it when the designer does this. If the designer has the units pre-positioned, I keep 'em there, figuring that's part of the gig. If they're NOT set up, having them organized by unit makes it SO much easier for me to allocate setup zones.

[sburke]

Well, LLF, I know sburke appreciated your contribution, because he ended up winning the battle!

LOL and I probably still spent well over an hour. The thing that was killing me was knowing my armor was confined to one side or the other of the map. It is things like that which can really cause you to spend some time as the commitment isn't for just part of the battle, it is for the whole shebang.

[ZPB II]

I don't want to inadvertently leak FOW information that can be inferred based on how I - as designer - would deploy the troops.

Heh, I often place units in mediocre locations. I don't want them to be in arbitrarily bad places, but what I do want is to give the player the kind of "Ahaa!" moments as he notices the unit is in a sub-optimal location and is much better off elsewhere, both on the offense and on the defense.

"Why is this platoon of tanks deployed next to the road? Roads don't sound like very safe places."

"Who put this MG so far forward? It's awfully vulnerable!"

"Why is the FO in the church tower? That's the most generic location for an FO to be in, surely my opponent will area fire it!"

To address the original question, it completely depends on my mood. If I'm going for a more action-oriented game, a defensive deployment might take 15 minutes without all the fine-tuning.

If I feel like roleplaying a real commander who is interested in the lives of his men instead of explosions, loud noises and possibly a medal, the deployment might take several hours. Maybe days, if the roleplay extends so far as to temporarily convert my apartment into an officer's mess with liqueurs and prost- Wait, this is going a bit far.

So yeah, hours.

[Steven482]

As others already pointed out, the time spent on on a SetUp heavily depneds on the circumstances of the scenario. However I tend to take a very slow approach.

Here is what I normally do (in any scenario vs. a human opponent, but generally also vs. the AI):

1) How does my OOB look like in detail? (60min)

I have created a specific scenario Excel-Template that I use to jot down each single units details so that I fully understand which troops are at my disposal. I am crazy enough to take note about morale, bullets, formations, chain of command and all others aspects available to me as a player, NOT using the editior. I normally start by clicking on an enpty spot on the map and then use the '+'-key to move through my formation step-by-step (i.e. unit-by-unit) until I return to the top level unit I started with.

2) How does the map look like? (30min)

I take Screenshots of the whole map from Top-Down as well as 8 directional angles with the view settings 3 or 4. If the map is really large, I zoom down quite a bit and puzzle the individual Screenshot pieces together within a Paintshop.

3) What are the environmental conditions of the scenario? (5min)

I take notes about the weather, wind and other conditions. What are the victory conditions? What is the time limit?

4) Roaming the map from a defenders / attackers perspective (20min)

Depending on the task of the scenario, I spend about 15-30min roaming the map from the player's perspective. I try to identify ridges, sunken spots and other important factors. Where is the objective? Where are the most logical areas of advance? Where are good spots for Overwatch positions? Where would I put my defense line?

5) Sort my troops into parade formations (10min)

I really appreciate if the scenario designer has setup all troops in a logical sequence, i.e. along the OOB defintion so that I can clearly identify them on the Map. If this has not been taken care of by the designer (or if I play a QuickBattle), I will arrange all my troops along the logical order of the OOB. I tend to group them by HQs. All my Fortification assets I also group by type. Just to have a clearly defined initial starting config, I select all my troops and assign them a facing towards the enemy and define a general 360degree target covered arc of 25m.

6) Define an overall plan (20min)

Now the time comes when I start defining in more detail an Overall plan that also takes into consideration the time limit of the scenario. If I am the attacker, I define the main axis of approach as well as an alternative / supportive axis. Then I define where firesupport will come from. I also define a timeline, where my troops should be at a given time (H-Hour + xmin). Normally I devide the scenario timeframe into 4 phase (e.g. 0-15min, 15-30min, 30-45min and 45-60min for a 1hour scenario). For all of the approach venues and the fire support, I define where the units should be at then end of those segments. If I am the defender, I do pretty much the same things. However instead of defining the areas of approach, I define the areas of defense. Normally I have Skirmishers, defense 1, main defense and last stand. I also define a main rally point, usually around the last stand.

7) Sketch a map (25min)

Now from the Screenshots (especially from the TopDown-View) I derive a full map. This will be Overlaid with arrows / circles / notes that summarize the plan somewhat.

8) Assign the troops (20min)

At this time I will then assign my troops broadly to their specific tasks. Normally I try to maintain the formational structure as much as possible. That mean for example that dealing 3 Platoon will be assigned to the skirmisher role, while 2 Platoon will man the Main defense line when defending. I pay very close attention to the quality of the troops I assign. Normally I select the best Platoon for the Main task. Within the Platoon I also rate the individual squads. Typically I have unit 1 (the best), unit 2 (midlle) and a reserve (unit 3). But it depends on the mission.

9) Place units on the map (90min)

Now is the time to split the overall plan into its location subsegments. For that area I select the earlier defined troops and put them onto the map. I analyze the immediate surroundings of that location and position the troops to their final location. I might split them as needed. Then I also define their individual targets arcs for that location, speficify weather they should remain hidden and pay extreme attention that they are all in good C2 communication with their HQ. I cannot stress the latter enough as it drives my crazy to find my troops being cut off from C2. As I mainly play on Iron-Level, it is of utmost importance to keep our assets together. At this time I also issue all my movement orders to the subunits and align their first turn movements with the right sequences.

10) Check the final Setup (30min)

After all this is done, I check each individual unit one more time starting with the highest ranking one. I work my way through all of them and doublecheck the LOS, the hide settings as well as the C2 links. Finally I save the game one more time and I am ready to click the red action button.

There you have it. If I sum up all the individual time-segments, I get an average time for prepartion (w/o having played a single turn) of about 310 min (about 5 hrs)

It can even be longer for larger scenarios.

For me part of the fun of these games is the planning and analytical part. I do not want to rush things. Everything that my troops do should have a max. effect to the ultimate goal of winning. The setup is an important part of this.

As there the saying goes: Luck does ot exist, it all comes down to poor / good planning.

Steven

[winkelried]

a bit of wisdom from real life:

identify your key assets and place them first (e.g. AT-assets, FOs, armor) then place secondary assets (e.g. to protect the primary assets). then place your eyes (e.g. always try to see the enemy before he sees your primary assets).

then a bit of Clausewitz: "Who defends everything, defends nothing!" which means, that you may need to concentrate some force to protect your key areas and leave other areas (almost) undefended.

and last, but not least: keep a mobile reserve, since "planning is the substitution of randomness by error" and things rarely work out as you planned.

with this approach i get pretty acceptable setup times: 30 to 90 mins with a battalion sized force on a rather large map.

[slysniper]

It takes as long as the amount of skills you have. In other words, Players with more skills normally take longer because of all the things they are running through in their set-up of units.

As for my one bit of advice. The more I have played over the years. The more i look for trying to set up as much of a reserve as i feel i can. Units behind the front lines that i can move and locate to what I see is needed when I read my opponants offense. Since this units require no detailed placement other than being organized in command and located where they have good access to the different frontal areas of the map. It has saved me alot of time setting up my defence. But dont be afraid to take time doing that first turn. its worth the effort.

[GreenAsJade]

First +100000 cheers for designers who parade the units. The game should do this.

I probably spend 1-2 hours for small, 2-3 for medium, 3-4 hours setting up large defenses

GaJ

[TheVulture]

Another vote for unit parade formation. Even if the designer has set theunits out in some kind of formation, the firat thing I do is group them up by platoon, company, battalion so I can see what my OOB is.

[sburke]

Another vote for unit parade formation. Even if the designer has set theunits out in some kind of formation, the firat thing I do is group them up by platoon, company, battalion so I can see what my OOB is.

Besides, who doesn't like a parade?

[Broadsword56]

Besides, who doesn't like a parade?

Ask that guy with the push broom who sweeps up after the elephants!

Actually, I love the parade and setup part too, because I get to enjoy the spectacle of my force in all its awesomeness, they look so invincible, my plan seems like a sure thing, and no one has died yet.

[newlife]

Funny, when I did some fan-made scenarios back in CM1 I got comments against parade setup. Personally I love it as I need to know what I'm working with. A nice (but rarely seen) middle ground are setups with troops deployed in slightly reasonable defensive positions but tightly grouped enough to see the OOB. Platoon 1 is all grouped on the town, platoon 2 is the crossroads and the heavies and specialists are near the back.

I like this as it resembles my own defense setup pattern.

1) study the map. Look from the air, definitely walk around on the ground. Look from the attackers perspective. Identify key locations.

2) study your troops. Oh, I have two inf companies and a pltn of tanks plus some trps and non-FO artillery. if there is a weak spot (few AT assets) this gets priority attention.

3) place troops by large groupings as if I were the commander one level above. Company A takes the western ridge, Company B guards the pass and road of more likely advance. Then I put myself into the lower commanding positions. As Company CO I need to guard the ridge, where do I put my platoons? As lt of 1st pltn, where do I put my squads? And so on. I find this helps in the big battles to not be bogged down trying to coordinate every last team in a Btln as if I were the Btln CO. This often results in extra units which is fine as these become natural local reserves. (say two squads are enough to cover an ambush, so the third waits in the second position)

4). Place the support units. So in the ongoing example the tanks would now be placed on the map as either a mobile reserve or shoring up the weak points.

This can all get interrupted when I realize a selected position is untenable due to LOS issues. Oh, that ridge doesn't overlook the whole valley. And then I back up or adjust as needed.

[sburke]

Funny reading your process newlife makes me remember just why I like spending time on the setup. It not only is good overall for planning etc, you also get to know your force and it's situation much more intimately. Good summation.

[womble]

What takes the longest time for me is finding good spots for AT assets, especially ATGs. Those are generally the most critical to the defense (the job of an MG can be done more easily by an infantry squad than the job of an ATG), and need to be well-sited. This process can often involve loading up a test scenario in hot-seat edited to remove the enemy forces and to place lots of "targets of interest" (tanks for the purpose of ATG sighting) in spots where LOS from my potential ATG sites is "marginal" (i.e. I think a tank there would be spottable, but the gun in setup can't target there because the empty ground isn't). Driving the enemy dummy tanks (set to Fanatic and with short cover arcs) round gives a sense of where tanks will show themselves, and letting the ATGs fire on the targets gives a sense of how soon the ATG will get itself spotted in the location you've chosen.

[newlife]

Thanks sburke.

That's dedication womble! I'll sometimes use my own tanks for sighting if the LOS I'm interested in is inside my setup zone. Sometimes I'll take things as obvious and occasionally get burned for it. I'm still learning the newer CM2 conditions and terrain so on occasion I'll fire up a separate QB on the map and conditions in question if its new to me.

e.g. I was surprised when I was able to spot tanks from long distance at night. Of course intel tells me my friend and opponent has 2 companies of tanks so even at low odds of spotting one, I have good odds of spotting something!