Deadly Pistols

[sburke]

You can delete the last two queries because after the 1st one you already got stabbed 3 times. Point is most people under estimate just the dangers of a simply knive in a combat situation and over estimate what a handgun can do but then that's no shock with internet warriors.

*just wanted to add the 'internet warrior' comment isn't directed specifically at your sburke*

LOL it is the internet! The home of expounding endlessly that which we generally know nothing about.

No worries, I am at least aware of how little I actually really know and when it comes to REAL weapon effects it is miniscule.

[Michael Emrys]

The funny thing about my example, after the repeals, we had to do some rock climbing to get back to the ridges. That was actually much more dangerous and as far as I saw, no one had real problems with that. It really is interesting how it is a mind game as to how we do many things in life.

That's why they tell people not to look down. Just this morning one of my cousins sent me a bunch of outstanding photographs. Some of them were taken from very high and precarious perches and just looking at them stirred my latent acrophobia. The funny thing is that I am not afraid to fly; love it in fact. But being on a high structure that I cannot not imagine falling off of or having collapse beneath me gives me the willies every time.

Michael

[Dadekster88]

Oh, you would have loved the A ladder in the obstacle course then. That top rung is a right mean pyschological @! to get over.

[acrashb]

Thanks

Is the knife sharpened?

how big is the knife?

Is it an amazing Ginzu knife?

It is an African knife maybe, but not a European knife.

The rule-of-thumb is 21'. It is of course an estimate, but knives (not modelled in CMFI) are quite dangerous.

[womble]

It is an African knife maybe, but not a European knife.

The rule-of-thumb is 21'. It is of course an estimate, but knives (not modelled in CMFI) are quite dangerous.

That being the distance away that a competent knifeman can be and still gut you before your weapon has cleared the holster and been brought to bear, not the range of a thrown knife. At least that's my understanding.

[Sgt Joch]

Thought this might be interesting, the video of the shootout at the Empire State building (warning: graphic).

http://youtu.be/EYWgrHwrlf8

Although more of a police situation, it is relevant to combat. The entire confrontation from the time the suspect points his gun at the officers to the time he is down is 6 seconds. The officers fired 16 bullets from very close range in 4 seconds and only 7 hit.

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

With you on that issue, and some of the things they show on TV, at precipices, make my stomach lurch. I don't have the best balance in the world and tend to avoid places like that, atop which, I have to make sure my vital glasses and I don't part ways.

Dadekster, acrashb, sburke

On point!

womble,

Your understanding is correct. If you want a terrifying look at what someone who knows how to run a knife can do upon arrival, see the Israeli Commandos vs SEALs episode of "The Deadliest Warrior" on the Military Channel. Once you do, you'll understand I'm not being hyberbolic here.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Dadekster88]

That being the distance away that a competent knifeman can be and still gut you before your weapon has cleared the holster and been brought to bear, not the range of a thrown knife. At least that's my understanding.

I've done the simulation training for it and it's pretty spot on. This is all assuming you are squared off on one another and you know it is coming as well. Of course most people that plan to shank you aren't going to bother to broadcast that they plan to stab you in the eye in the first place so when you add in acknowledgement of the situation plus reaction time...well it gets ugly fast. :eek: Oh, and a knife is infinitely more concealable than a gun. Anyway, this wasn't about what is potentially better in a CQB situation so sorry about the derailment. I just get bothered when I see people thinking that a sidearm is the end and be all for a pissing distance match.

I'm no expert when it comes to what crews do when they bail out of an AFV but I would assume that it's pretty variable on circumstances. A crew that bails out of an AFV that was just rendered combat non-effective like engine going out probably will come bailing out with a more effective game plan to fight back if needed than one they just escaped from their AFV as it started to brew up on them. The first crew I'd guess would probably fire some rounds off over their shoulders as they beat feet to cover assuming they just didn't faceplant into the dirt on exit. The second situation I'd guess would be close to instant surrender if whatever took them out is nearby, unless the AFV crew just machine gunned half so said enemy squad in which case they know they are screwed probably. If half my brothers just got mowed down I wouldn't be in POW mood either I'd wager. A bit deeper than the game engine models but what is abstracted at the moment seems a bit too Dirty Harry too often for my liking.

[Dadekster88]

Thought this might be interesting, the video of the shootout at the Empire State building (warning: graphic).

http://youtu.be/EYWgrHwrlf8

Although more of a police situation, it is relevant to combat. The entire confrontation from the time the suspect points his gun at the officers to the time he is down is 6 seconds. The officers fired 16 bullets from very close range in 4 seconds and only 7 hit.

It shows you many things tbh of which three stand out.

1. The advantage initially goes to the suspect...he has his hand reaching for something as the officers close the gap.

2. The officers initally are in each others line of fire as they both head for the closest cover as training kicks in.

3. The suspect begins to advance on the officers of which the one in the back begins to move lateral to increase distance as well as be able to return fire.

Suspect goes down.

Oh, and people like the one wearing the red shirt bother me too for various reasons. If you see something similar like what happened here, don't do what she does

[MikeyD]

About the 'sharpened knife', that reminds me of another Vietnam war tanker memoir. An M48 tank gunner in the middle of a battle feels something spray the back of his neck - Blood! He swivels around to see the TC with with one hand wrapped around the barrel of an AK pointing down into the turret, the other hand holding a Bowie knife he had just pulled from his boot and stuck into the neck of the topside enemy soldier. I suppose if the TC had had a .45 with a clear chamber he would'a been out of luck because he didn't have both hands free to chamber a round. :eek:

[acrashb]

out of luck because he didn't have both hands free to chamber a round. :eek:

We are now well off-topic, but you can do it one-handed. I don't know if armed forces, particularly Vietnam era, trained to do so. In any event, outside of Isreal I believe modern armed forces teach condition 1 (round in, hammer back, safety on). It is certainly the condition in which I would prefer to carry.

Police do train one-handed load / reload today.

Which means they can get a pistol into action with one hand, and still miss the bad guy due to stress etc. - bringing us back on topic.

[dieseltaylor]

Yup

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/Wignam.txt

This is does highlight one of the problems I think with CMx2 and that is that all units are at full strength were as we know this would be uncommon. In fact I believe thta where soldiers werwe a bit gunshy thye would be dropped out of the platoon for reserve as their value in combat was marginal or dangerous.

Why we cannot have reduced squads I am not sure as it was a nice feature in CMx1

[MikeyD]

You can have reduced squads. Its right there in the editor. You can drop the headcount all the way to 50% if you want. Not in QBs, in QB you adjust headcount by the 'force edjustment' menu. But QBs have always been a blunt instrument when compared to real editor-built scenarios.

[dieseltaylor]

My apologies.

[slysniper]

Oh, you would have loved the A ladder in the obstacle course then. That top rung is a right mean pyschological @! to get over.

So True, I almost watch a mans death from that one. To this day I still do not know how he managed to not fall to his death other that someone from above decided it was not his time yet.

[slysniper]

About the 'sharpened knife', that reminds me of another Vietnam war tanker memoir. An M48 tank gunner in the middle of a battle feels something spray the back of his neck - Blood! He swivels around to see the TC with with one hand wrapped around the barrel of an AK pointing down into the turret, the other hand holding a Bowie knife he had just pulled from his boot and stuck into the neck of the topside enemy soldier. I suppose if the TC had had a .45 with a clear chamber he would'a been out of luck because he didn't have both hands free to chamber a round. :eek:

As for the knife, in the hands of someone willing to use it. It can certainly be the weapon of choice when things get close and personnal. I know a few Vietnam vets and one guy comes to mind. He said he had 4 knifes on him when out in the field, , One on his chest strap, one behind his head in gear, on in his boot and one on his thigh. To me that seemed crazy and just more gear to have to keep managed. But his view was, needed one available to be able to grab where his hand was presenty at. Since he also killed at least 4 eenemy soildiers with them knives, I guess his methods were not all that bad.

[Redwolf]

It can't be that hard to get the pistol issue under control?

[Killkess]

I am not sure if BFC already acknowledged this as a bug or, like many other issues, see this as a feature.

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

That's quite the story!

slysniper,

That guy's definitely not someone I'd want to mess this. Four knife kills? Eek!

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

I found a remarkable story of a forty yard and closing engagement with a pillbox firing an MG at the .45 firing scout who assaulted it. It's from here and can be read online.

American Courage, American Carnage: 7th Infantry Chronicles: The 7th ...

By John C. McManus

You want page 336 and the amazing account of the heroics of Private Robert Green.

Regards,

John Kettler

[SelfLoadingRifle]

For something completely unrelated to CM I have recently been researching pistol accuracy and I believe that at 25 yards most decent shooters could shoot a 5 inch grouping of bullets in perfect conditions. Thus, at 50 yards, you are talking about a 10 inch grouping. As already said though, that's target shooting, taking your time to aim without anyone shooting back. For combat conditions I'd probably double or even treble the group size, giving a 20 or 30 inch grouping. That's approaching a whole yard. So yes, 50 yards should be pretty inaccurate and beyond that, almost impossible

It should be noted that accuracy with any firearm in an adrenaline rush situation is degraded by at least 50%. Also, as other members of this thread have noted, the pistol is NOT a shoulder weapon. Perhaps for this reason it is also a weapon that novices find very difficult indeed to shoot accurately. The 1911 Colt also kicks like a mule which encourages aforementioned novices to flinch, which of course degrades accuracy even further.

Under real conditions it is perfectly possible to miss at 3 yards with a pistol. At 10 yards you would probably connect less than 50% of the time and at 15 yards you would be unlikely to hit anything at all.

SLR

[acrashb]

To my mind, the simplest objective way to manage this is to take the well-known police shooting stats and set that as the baseline for 'green' troops. Make some adjustments for increasing levels of experience. It won't be perfect - but it doesn't have to be, it just has to be a) good enough and have some basis in fact instead of supposition of just plain guessing.

[slysniper]

well first

some new testing of the game should be done to see where it stands.

But the last test I recall was someone placing a team with pistols against a team with bolt action rifles at 50 meters apart behind walls and letting them duel each other.

Needless to say , both sides could win the little fire fight. But the pistols had the advantage in getting suppression and kills.

I just LOL when I saw it.Thinking what the chances would be in real life to get killing shots at that range with cover with a weapon that is that unsteady.

[slysniper]

It should be noted that accuracy with any firearm in an adrenaline rush situation is degraded by at least 50%. Also, as other members of this thread have noted, the pistol is NOT a shoulder weapon. Perhaps for this reason it is also a weapon that novices find very difficult indeed to shoot accurately. The 1911 Colt also kicks like a mule which encourages aforementioned novices to flinch, which of course degrades accuracy even further.

Under real conditions it is perfectly possible to miss at 3 yards with a pistol. At 10 yards you would probably connect less than 50% of the time and at 15 yards you would be unlikely to hit anything at all.

SLR

I agree and I disagree

As I was trying to point out, for most people in that situation you are correct. But i also know there are those out there that do have ice running through their vains, Born Killers is one word for them. In situations like this there is no massive adrenaline rush. they can handle the situation and focus on doing what is needed to kill someone. For them that 10-15 yard shot is very makable and very high chance of success. And there is plenty of stories to prove there is such people out there.

But back to the game, it does not reflect that aspect at all So cannot be a direct factor of what to expect from the game.

[LongLeftFlank]

Just had a Sherman crew bail after their tank was KOed by a Japanese (modded British) demo charge (Breach) team (I deliberately had the Sherman NOT spot and kill the DC team, which it would otherwise quickly have done -- the test was whether the AI side will throw DCs at a moving tank of its own volition. They do)

Range is point blank; the Japanese have rifles and are in cover. Two crewmen fall at once; a third cowers. The last guy pulls his 45, kills one Japanese more or less immediately, moves a few meters left then pins and kills the other after about 6 shots. Seems not unreasonable for a motivated, hacked off tanker.

Intrigued, I swapped vehicles for a M7 Priest. Bailed the Veteran/High crew (8 pistols) and had them advance on a Japanese (British) rifle squad over a crest that let them close to within 20 meters before LOS gained. Result: the Earp brothers did hit 4 Japanese (Regular/Fanatic) during the shootout, but the squad Sten and Bren gun made fairly short work of them.... pinning and then killing. Done within about 30 seconds; no grenades used until the very end when it was already over. Again, not unreasonable under these unusual conditions. FWIW.