Deadly Pistols

[c3k]

It seems to me that weapons are designed for certain ranges, and can be practiced at these ranges, but in real life-or-death situations, every weapon drops down a notch.

For example, optimal/possible ranges:

Knives, about 6 feet (extended arm, lunge)

Handguns, up to 50 yards (some more, based on high-tech and training)

Carbines, up to 300m

Rifles, 600m

Machineguns, 1km

Now, in real life, this is what happens:

Knives are used while grappling, well within headlock range.

Handguns are most effective at "knife range", meaning about 6 feet.

Carbines actually hit targets at 50m, and miss at 300m

Rifles are able to cause casualties at 300m (sometimes) and almost always miss at 600m

Machineguns just waste ammo beyond 600m

Now, all the above is VERY ROUGH. The gist is that whatever you THINK a weapon can do, in ACTUALITY, it is nearly worthless until it is used at ranges where you think a closer weapon would be "better".

Just adding another perspective.

[Michael Emrys]

You'd half expect the "experienced" NCO to be better at putting lead on target than the rest of the team...

I would expect their position would depend more on their leadership skills than their personal marksmanship. The two might go together or it might not, but in any event marksmanship would be the lesser priority.

Michael

[womble]

I would expect their position would depend more on their leadership skills than their personal marksmanship. The two might go together or it might not, but in any event marksmanship would be the lesser priority.

Certainly, which is why I said "half expect". That East Front veteran assigned to NCO a bunch of SS PzDiv 12 "Hitlerjugend" 16-18 year olds probably has more chance of actually shooting where it will be useful than his charges. He's Veteran, his boyz are Green or Regular at best. I wonder if a high leadership squad/team effectively has a chance of the leader having a higher Experience rating than the average, is all; I'm pretty certain every pTruppe has their own stats.

[Cpl Steiner]

I'm sure many American posters on this forum must own or have access to pistols, unlike myself in the UK where they are completely banned. Could you not just simulate this using real pistols to get an idea of the sorts of hit rates to expect? Presumably you could reconstruct something like "pop-up" or "snap" shooting at a man-sized target at various ranges and compare that to aimed shots. If you want to simulate combat stress, run round the block first so you are out of breath and your heart is really pumping and then try it. I would love someone to have a go and let us all know the results!

[Wicky]

Cpl Steiner - It's called the Modern Pentathalon :-) - a contest to simulate the experience of a cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, and sword fight, swim 200m, and finishing with a combined event (3 km rub and pistol shooting) all done in one day.

http://www.pentathlongb.org/aboutmp/index.php

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

The History Channel show "Top Gun" had some really good, demanding, courses of fire, but the the pistol shoots, while very tough technically, were nothing like some of the rifle runs, which were uphill! They not only involved running, but different weapons, getting into position, loading on the fly and much more.

Regards,

John Kettler

[SNAFU]

I really didn't have too much of a problem with pistols being too effective in the game (they are) until last night when a lone officer destroyed one of my half tracks with his P38. I had to roll my eyes at that one.

(no grenades were thrown--range was 25-30 meters).

[John Kettler]

SNAFU,

Was the halftrack's visor open or closed? Makes a huge difference in the available target area. Did the shooter have an elevation advantage allowing him to fire down into your halftrack? What was the angle of engagement? What did this pistol marksman hit to kill your halftrack? I take it that "destroyed" does not indicate a crew casualty or multiples thereof?

Shall be most interested in what you have to say.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

I took a look at the Modern Pentathlon link ("Modern" being a relative term), and it certainly looks challenging. I do find it odd, though, that the sword is represented by an epee, where one would expect a saber. The penalties for not scoring from either side are steep, too. Thenks for sharing this, since I'd never been exposed to it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[acrashb]

Could you not just simulate this using real pistols to get an idea of the sorts of hit rates to expect?

[...]

If you want to simulate combat stress, run round the block first so you are out of breath and your heart is really pumping and then try it.

1) It has already been done with "real pistols" and quoted in the police studies in this thread - I don't know why it is so difficult to read them.

2) LMAO. Do that, then have a dozen or so people try to kill you while you "try it".

[c3k]

I'm sure many American posters on this forum must own or have access to pistols, unlike myself in the UK where they are completely banned. Could you not just simulate this using real pistols to get an idea of the sorts of hit rates to expect? Presumably you could reconstruct something like "pop-up" or "snap" shooting at a man-sized target at various ranges and compare that to aimed shots. If you want to simulate combat stress, run round the block first so you are out of breath and your heart is really pumping and then try it. I would love someone to have a go and let us all know the results!

Many handgun shooters, military and civilian, experienced and untrained, have posted in this thread already. Actual results have been posted. Youtube links of handgun fights have been posted. Outliers are the deadeye accurate shooters. They are rare, and rarely seen.

To back this up, just yesterday a man walked up to his ex-boss in New York City (right at the base of the Empire State Building), and emptied his .45 into the boss. (In the US, wrongful termination lawsuits are only one option available to you.) After murdering the ex-boss, the killer was followed on CROWDED sidewalks. He was pointed out to two NYPD officers guarding the entrance to the Empire State Building. (They have been variously described as anti-terrorist experts. Whatever.) They accosted the killer who WAS EIGHT FEET AWAY!!!

Remember that: two officers, one bad guy, range is 8'. The killer pulled his .45 out of his bag (it may have been empty, it may not have been; it's still fresh and facts are sparse). At 8', BOTH officers drew their sidearms and fired at least 16 shots. (Some accounts say more.)

At 8', they hit the killer 7 times. Oh, they ALSO hit 9 passersby. (They may have fired more than 16 rounds.)

Trained, had the "drop" (they initiated the confrontation), a man-sized target in broad daylight at 8'. And they still missed well more than half their shots. (At least, they missed their target. I'm sure the folks with various finger-sized holes in the bodies would argue that point.)

So, to sum: experienced shooters, actual stats, and even an incident within 24 hours, all point to the fact that handguns are essentially worthless as a combat weapon.

Their only use is to win a knife-fight. (Oh, and they will LOSE a knife-fight if the fight is initiated by the knifer within 21' and the handgun is in a holster, concealed or duty carry. But that's a debate for another day.)

Adrenalin and handguns equals misses.

[Michael Emrys]

To draw a line under what c3k has posted above, several years ago, three or four NY detectives accosted a suspect inside the hallway of his apartment building. When he reached for his wallet to get his ID, they thought he was going for a weapon and opened fire. They fired a total of 33 rounds of which only 11 struck the suspect. Mind you, this was at a distance of less than ten feet and the subject was not returning fire. In fact, as it turned out, he was unarmed. Not only that, he proved not to be the man the police were looking for.

When I read the account of this incident, two thoughts occurred to me.

1. The detectives must have been awfully jumpy. How justified that might have been was undeterminable from the information in the article.

2. The level of marksmanship was unimpressive. No doubt I have become jaded by watching movies where the good guys never seem to miss. Still, missing two-thirds of your shots at almost point blank range is against a man who is just standing there is...unimpressive.

Michael

[Chek]

While I was a conscript in the German army I was told that, when the Russians came, I was to take apart my P1 pistol and throw the parts at the enemy.

My Dad was told something very similar,more along the lines of if you can throw your gun at the guy and hit him then you stand a reasonable chance of shooting him.

German officers hitting the enemy at 50 metres with a P 38-regularly!

Keep the Iron cross that man deserves an Olympic Gold.

[slysniper]

It does not take rocket science to figure out every aspect of this game. Anyone that has done any shooting with a pistol knows the answer to this question?

It is not a weapon that you just pick up and master, can it be mastered. yes. . Then even after mastering it, then there is mastering oneself to use them same skills when under stress, or excitement, the situation at the spur of the moment and all the other things that can come into play when it really matters.

I can tell you as someone that at least owns a pistol, had training (Limited), had combat competition shoots where we were judged on speed, field positioning and scoring on man targets where we had 2 to the chest and 1 to the head and the maximum score was 30 points for each target.

(which popped up normally at 10 to 15 yards away, maybe 25 once in a great while.) That at them closer ranges, that hitting someone and being able to kill them is very possible. At 50 yards, I would not want to waste my ammo.

As to how often, depends on the person (in the real deal). 50% would be shaking so much in the real event. They likely would not ever hit it. 30% might be able to use it as a close defense weapon and at least have a chance to hit what they aim at,. Now the rest might actually be able to hold their pistol steady, not rush the shot and do some real damage. And out of that 20% I would say maybe 5% of the whole, you might actually find that type of person that has nerves of steel that can and will make a pistol a deadly weapon. No matter what is going on.

So now you have a small percentage of people that should and could use the weapon correctly and if you listen to those that think they are that type of person, which I have. Most would only want to use the weapon out to 15 yards.

Thus when in the game I see 50 meter kills, I am thinking to myself, has these guys ever tried this stuff themselves. Then it also comes to a situation where every guy in the game as the ability to fight. Thus enhancing the problem. 5 man tank crew in the game, all 5 have a chance of killing someone at 50 yards. In real life. Three are worthless, scared and shaking. One might be able to hit the enemy and if you really lucky one might be an actual killer. Able to take someone down on a consistent basis. At a realistic range. (15 meters maybe)

But you are not going to find charts and data that will prove all this.

But sometimes this attitude we have about getting the game right is a bunch of bull. Because if the game was really correct. About 1 in 10 of your solders would be out there fighting. Kicking 2 or 3 others in the ass to try and get them to help him. And the rest would be in a constant state of trying to save their ass and would be of no worth. I have yet to hear any or you wanting to fix the game to start portraying that, and that is very real.

Back to what I love to say, the game will never be a perfect sim. It's a game.

It mimics real life, but it is not real life. Yes it would be great to get it closer to what is real. But stop over analyzing it.

Bf has not changed the numbers yet, and it has been over a year, so onward I play giving great respect to a weapon that has needs to be feared within the game, the mighty pistol

[JonS]

if the game was really correct. About 1 in 10 of your solders would be out there fighting. Kicking 2 or 3 others in the ass to try and get them to help him.

Yup

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/Wignam.txt

2. ATTACK - BATTLE DRILL

It was my chief concern to see the application of Battle Drill to battle and I watched it very closely. I have come to the conclusion that a number of revisions are necessary if we are to deal with realities.

There is nothing wrong with Battle Drill in theory, but it presupposes that you have a Pl team in which every individual knows his job and his place, and in which every man is brave enough and experienced enough to do as he is told. Of course in practice you have no such thing. Probably about half the Pl really understand the Battle Drill thoroughly, and as I shall show below in any case quite a number of the men in the Pl cannot be relied upon. I have, therefore, come to the conclusion that Battle Drill as at present taught is very useful training, and will give first-class results when applied by regular Bns who have practised it for many months, but we need something very much simpler for this war.

I want first of all to describe how Pls are fighting at the moment. Attacks are invariably carefully prepared, the tps go forward under arty concentrations or a barrage. When the barrage lifts (if the enemy has not gone) he opens up with his MGs, and it is here that the Pl battle starts and it is here that the battle itself is lost or won.

In very rare instances Pl and Coy Comds have applied some sort of Battle Drill to knock out these enemy MGs. Where they have done so they have invariably succeeded in taking the position with very few casualties.

But, in the very large majority of cases, no sort of Battle Drill is used. No attempt is made at Fire and Movement. The positions are taken by what I call `Guts and Movement'. The battle goes something like this:-

Enemy MGs open fire, the whole Pl lie down except the Pl Comd and three or four gutful men. Five or six men start making tracks for home, meanwhile the gutful men under the Pl Comd dash straight in to the enemy position without any covering fire and always succeed in taking the position. In some instances some positions are taken by as few as two men, and every Bn Comd will confirm that it is always the same group of nine or ten who are there first, and on whom the battle depends.

I have personally seen this method of attack used in all, except one, of the battles in which I took part, and this explains one of the mysteries I have never been able to solve before - that is the saying of many experienced soldiers that `you must never allow men to lie down in a battle'.

This method of attack is peculiarly British and from the point of view of sheer courage it really has no equal. I am convinced however that we can find other and better methods, and I make the following observations:

(i) Some Comds say that this method is successful with few casualties. This is true if you speak of casualties in quantity, but it is far from true if you speak of casualties in quality. The Pl in action is almost invariably twenty-two strong and of whatever Regt good or bad, every Pl can be analysed as follows:

Six gutful men who will go anywhere and do anything, 12 `sheep' who will follow a short distance behind if they are well led, & 6 who will run away.

I have discussed these figures with many people and they all agree, although there is some slight disagreement on figures. These figures are roughly accurate as shown by the number of Court-Martials for running away that follow every Campaign. Every Bn has between forty to sixty and there are, of course, many others who aren't caught.

Looking at these figures it will be seen that the group from which casualties cannot be spared is the gutful group, yet I would say that casualties in this group are often 100 per cent per month. We must find a method of fighting which is more economical.

(ii) Battle Drill or Fire and Movement is Not applied because in its present form it is too complicated, and it presupposes that when a Section is told to do a thing that it will do it whilst in actual fact, as the above Pl figures show, they will probably do little or nothing.

What we need is an extremely simple Battle Drill which takes cognisance of the fact that there are only ~6 men in the Pl who can be absolutely relied on to do as they are told under enemy fire.

[Paper Tiger]

About 1 in 10 of your solders would be out there fighting. Kicking 2 or 3 others in the ass to try and get them to help him. And the rest would be in a constant state of trying to save their ass and would be of no worth. I have yet to hear any or you wanting to fix the game to start portraying that, and that is very real.

No need to fix that. Give them POOR or LOW morale and they will behave like that in the game too. Especially when you reduce their experience a bit too. But then, that's not Fun for some folks.

[Michael Emrys]

I think I'll stop playing wargames.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Paper Tiger,

I'd think that adding in some typical fatigue levels would help. Consider, for example, the plight of the poor Desert Rats in Normandy. They'd spearheaded the British end of every landing prior, were "too pooped to pop," yet got the job again for D-Day, too. They were both war weary and resentful. From an experience level, they'd have to be rated Veteran-Crack for sure, but their motivation sucked and they were simply worn out.

By contrast, the boys (and most of them were) of SS Panzer Division Hitler Jugend were super motivated, highly trained, eager for war, and though Green themselves, led by highly seasoned officers and noncoms. That division fought with enormous ferocity and courage.

Study after study has shown that it's not the veteran outfits that do amazing things in combat. It's the ones inexperienced in war, full of P*** and vinegar, with something to prove. Believe you've heard of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team?

JonS,

A most excellent find! Rather reinforces some of the hated conclusions reached by S.L.A. Marshall, I think.

c3k, slysniper, Michael Emrys

Good points, and I know some police horror stories myself, including one where, starting from 10', a cop burst in, fired some 14-16 rounds at the perp on a couch, who was shooting back, reloaded and fired some more, still not hitting the bad guy, who was somehow eventually taken down.

Contrariwise, police departments are expected to hit the 50 yard, briefly appearing torso , target with 2 of 10 rounds, and one SpecWar group I know of trains on 100 yard targets and is expected to get "at least one hit, preferably more" on the same briefly appearing human torso target. So, the question becomes: Are these pistol accuracy issues a general problem in the CMx2 games (any evidence of this in CMSF?) or could we simply be seeing the result of the AI's "rolling hot" and random walks occurring?

Regards,

John Kettler

[slysniper]

Jon S, a great example

Paper tiger, exactly : The more you make it realistic , the less fun it is. I came to a conclusion long ago. I want to play with hero’s or see someone do amazing things in a game environment that seems realistic. Which happens presently still. But in the real world, it really comes down to the few that are willing to do what the many will not.

As for the real numbers as to what percentage that is. Who really knows???

I was out this weekend repealing with a bunch of young guys. 9 of us. (For some it was their first time ever.

It is really safe repelling (except for the fact that people fear falling)

Out of the 9 we had there, 1 that had no fear, was taking risk and just into it.

We had 3 that had no real issues, showed respect for it and were safe and enjoying it.

Had 3 that really did not want to do it, but were doing it because they needed to check their man cards, So with encouragement, they managed to do it and overcome their fears.

For the last 2, from the beginning to the end, they were in constant fear. It did not matter how many times we did it. They never enjoyed it, For them it was a struggle of fighting against their fear the whole time.

It is part of human nature, In combat I think the number go up because the environment is very deadly, so the mind is sending plenty of signals to say , get the **** out of here.

All I know, is you can do things to help that factor in training. But when the real tests in life come. The natural man comes out in people and from what I have seen, about one in 10 to 20 have a very high no fear level. About 30 -50 % that have ways to place fear where it belong and can overcome it. And the rest. Its just a real challenge from within, that really for them is not something that can be easily removed.

The funny thing about my example, after the repeals, we had to do some rock climbing to get back to the ridges. That was actually much more dangerous and as far as I saw, no one had real problems with that. It really is interesting how it is a mind game as to how we do many things in life.

[Sgt Joch]

On the incidents discussed above regarding the NYPD, you have to remember they are now armed with semi-automatic pistols and trained to keep firing until the suspect is down. Even if some bullets miss, the theory is that enough will hit to neutralize the suspect. In the Diallo case in 1999, 41 bullets were fired in less than 15 seconds, as I recall, and 19 hit mr. Diallo.

Other than stress, on a firing range you can also factor out the environmental factors, take your time aiming and firing until you know exactly how to hit that particular target at a particular range most of the time.

In a real life situation, a police officer has to decide in a few seconds whether to shoot or not; he is unfamiliar with the location; there may be wind, dust or poor visibility; he may not be in the optimum firing position and/or moving; the target may be moving and/or worse firing back.

You also have to remember that a pistol is inherently difficult to aim. With a rifle, you can stabilize the weapon with both hands and shoulder and you have that long barrel as an aiming point. A pistol is only held in one hand and even with a two handed grip, it is easy to be slightly off and miss completely. With a semi-auto pistol, you also have to contend with the cumulative recoil of all these rounds being fired in quick succession, each one of which will throw off your aim slightly. Getting 1/3 to 1/2 of the bullets in the target in these situations is not abnormal.

Back to CM. A pistol is only useful as a very short range defensive weapon. There seems to be an issue with pistols in the game. We have had some internal discussions on possible solutions, but like everything else, there never seems to be enough time to solve each and every problem, but it is on the list.

[sburke]

Jon S, a great example

Paper tiger, exactly : The more you make it realistic , the less fun it is. I came to a conclusion long ago. I want to play with hero’s or see someone do amazing things in a game environment that seems realistic. Which happens presently still. But in the real world, it really comes down to the few that are willing to do what the many will not.

While there is ddefinitely something to be said for your guys doing what they are told I did find playing with a less optimal force pretty interesting. In Hamel Vallee Broadsword had set the German fitness level really low and it completely changed the character of the game for me however it did not change how the TAC AI altered the actions of individuals in a team, still plenty of very cool exciting stuff. I think folks should be more open to giving that a shot and trying to feel what it is like when you have to pay more attention to your troops motivation levels to get a task done.

[Broadsword56]

While there is ddefinitely something to be said for your guys doing what they are told I did find playing with a less optimal force pretty interesting. In Hamel Vallee Broadsword had set the German fitness level really low and it completely changed the character of the game for me however it did not change how the TAC AI altered the actions of individuals in a team, still plenty of very cool exciting stuff. I think folks should be more open to giving that a shot and trying to feel what it is like when you have to pay more attention to your troops motivation levels to get a task done.

Thanks. And BTW, the German fitness level was set super-low in that battle not just for the heck of it (or to handicap sburke because his Landsers continue to kick GI butt every time) but to simulate the effects (disruption, lack of sleep, messed-up C3) of an operational-level overnight bombardment by the entire 29th ID artillery that hit them just prior to the battle's start.

Not everyone will want to play an op layer or model events like that, but it's worth noting that these are they types of things that went on IRL, outside the scope of CM, that would have had a bearing on the forces, soft factors, and conditions at the tactical level. So if you omit those types of factors as "inputs", be prepared to accept a different set of "outputs" in the behavior and outcomes you see in your CM battle.

[Dadekster88]

Handguns in this game are vastly over powered when it comes to AFV crews bailing out of their vehicles and employing them. A sidearm is what I would use when I can't punch someone in the face but they are still too close to use a hand grenade on. Anyone who thinks you can use a handgun on someone accurately at over 20' under serious stress is naive or has never experienced serious stress I'd wager. Hell, most people on this board probably don't even know what the lethal range for someone armed with a simple knife is without looking it up. :mad:

[sburke]

Hell, most people on this board probably don't even know what the lethal range for someone armed with a simple knife is without looking it up. :mad:

Thanks

Is the knife sharpened?

how big is the knife?

Is it an amazing Ginzu knife?

[Dadekster88]

Thanks

Is the knife sharpened?

how big is the knife?

Is it an amazing Ginzu knife?

You can delete the last two queries because after the 1st one you already got stabbed 3 times. Point is most people under estimate just the dangers of a simply knive in a combat situation and over estimate what a handgun can do but then that's no shock with internet warriors.

*just wanted to add the 'internet warrior' comment isn't directed specifically at your sburke*