Deadly Pistols

[thejetset]

I've seen this issue pop up from time to time ... but it seems that pistols are more lethal in CM.FI than ever. At 30-40 meters I fear a German officer and his mauser more than a SMG.

Anyone else noticing this?? Not a major thing ... but it might be worth revising.

[John Kettler]

thejetset,

I once got a Glisenti kill from my tenente in a CMAK ROW fight. Stopped the Brits from storming my trench! Mind, it was at spitting distance.

Regards,

John Kettler

[thejetset]

At 30-40 meters I fear a German officer and his mauser more than a SMG.

Sorry ... I meant Luger .... I was writing fast from my cell-phone at lunch ... please don't rip me a new one for the oversight!!!

[John Kettler]

thejetset,

GIs wanted Lugers, but were far more likely to encounter this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P38

My Uncle George was in the Navy's Boat Two (Motor Machinst's Mate, 3rd class on an LCM, serving with Patton), and did manage to snag a Luger and ammo. He was most unhappy when he got back to Arkansas and discovered my future father had shot through all of it!

Never got to shoot a Luger, but have fired a war trophy P38. I thought it was a good gun, well designed, well designed and easy to aim and shoot.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

Just wait till you see the Commissars and what they can do with their Makarovs. It's not just the enemy who fear them...

[acrashb]

Sorry ... I meant Luger ....

It may actually have been a Mauser. As JK pointed out, mid-to-late war pistols were mostly Walther P-38s. Many of them were made by Mauser under contract - I have just sold a Mauser-made P-38 to a collector.

Back to your point, a pistol is a decent "spitting range" firearm, but degrades rapidly in utility past this. Anyone who has shot at a moving target, perhaps while moving oneself, will have noticed this. Most new shooters - and this would apply to a soldier using a pistol for self-defence - have trouble hitting an 8.5x11 sheet of paper at ten yards, and would simply miss completely at twenty yards, even in the calm confines of a target shooting range.

A well-trained person would be somewhat likely to get effective hits out to maybe 30 yards, assuming a standing target and not too much motion. By well-trained, I am talking about 50-200 rounds of structured practice per week for about a year.

P38s are reasonably-accurate pistols, although not to the standard of a modern 1911 or any other modern, well-made pistol, but the limiting factor is the person behind the trigger and the simple fact that it is a handgun, not a shoulder-fired arm.

[Baneman]

...P38s are reasonably-accurate pistols, although not to the standard of a modern 1911 ....

Hang on, isn't the 1911 older than the P38 ?

[slysniper]

As mentioned, post have been made about this before in the game, pistols test have been done, they are deadly up and beyond 50 meters in the game are are just too powerful. Exspecially if you run across a tank crew with 5 of them and ammo.

We thought they might finially do some tweeking to it, but likely have not. I dont even want to test it anymore, so just be cafeful when you know they are out there. The one good thing we have going for us is at least crews have limited ammo. They have 16 rounds as I recall

[acrashb]

Hang on, isn't the 1911 older than the P38 ?

Hency my phrase "modern 1911", as in a higher-end off-the-shelf Kimber, Springfield, etc. made in the last ten or fifteen years. I have shot WWII-vintage 1911s - they go bang every time (mostly, the ejection port is small and prone to stovepipes) but shake and rattle like an old Ford and shoot like a muzzle-loader. Loose tolerances are good for production speed / cost and for reliability in inclement conditions (especially with the 1911 design), but do not contribute to accuracy.

[Cpl Steiner]

For something completely unrelated to CM I have recently been researching pistol accuracy and I believe that at 25 yards most decent shooters could shoot a 5 inch grouping of bullets in perfect conditions. Thus, at 50 yards, you are talking about a 10 inch grouping. As already said though, that's target shooting, taking your time to aim without anyone shooting back. For combat conditions I'd probably double or even treble the group size, giving a 20 or 30 inch grouping. That's approaching a whole yard. So yes, 50 yards should be pretty inaccurate and beyond that, almost impossible I would say.

[EDIT] I should point out that my 5 inch grouping at 25 yards is of course just based on averaging out claims by various shooting forum posters and also assumes using both hands to fire the weapon in a good "modern" shooting stance (Weaver or Isosceles). Example random photo:

The squares on the target are 1 inch wide.

[womble]

For something completely unrelated to CM I have recently been researching pistol accuracy and I believe that at 25 yards most decent shooters could shoot a 5 inch grouping of bullets in perfect conditions. Thus, at 50 yards, you are talking about a 10 inch grouping. As already said though, that's target shooting, taking your time to aim without anyone shooting back. For combat conditions I'd probably double or even treble the group size, giving a 20 or 30 inch grouping. That's approaching a whole yard. So yes, 50 yards should be pretty inaccurate and beyond that, almost impossible I would say.

There has been a lot of research done about handgun accuracy in stress situations, prompted to a large extent by Law Enforcement concerns. From what I remember of that, stressed shooting is worse than your estimate by a factor of at least 3. In uncertain lighting against an evading target that's returning, has returned or is likely to return fire, 20 feet is a better estimate of effective range.

[dieseltaylor]

Steiner - surely a self-reporting group of pistol fans is very likely overstating the accuracy. They actually spend time on the sport and that they shoot static targets in a more relaxed environment.

People being nasty to you and stressing you out with shots and movement I suggest means your figures may be accurate but not actually much use other than indicating a maximum upper limit in the best possible conditions. Which in itself is useful. : )

[Vanir Ausf B]

However, there seems to be a consensus among practitioners and researchers alike that police marksmanship in real-life (scene of a crime) situations is less than desirable, something along the order of one hit for every six shots (Morrison 2002). This means that in gunfighting with actual criminals, the average police officer effectiveness is at the level of 17% proficiency. This is much less, as you will have noticed, than the 84% proficiency level required for qualification in police training. It also illustrates the problem, that real-life situations are so vastly different from training situations.

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/mstevens/205/205lect02a.htm

[dieseltaylor]

Hit Potential In Gun Fights

The police officer's potential for hitting his adversary during armed

confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of

the rounds fired. An assailant's skill was 11% in 1979.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be

determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%

3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%

7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be

determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%

3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%

7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

The Disconnect Between Range Marksmanship & Combat Hitsmanship

It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can

certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the

reports.

An attempt was made to relate an officer's ability to strike a target in a

combat situation to his range qualification scores. After making over 200

such comparisons, no firm conclusion was reached. To this writer's mind,

the study result establishes that there is indeed a disconnect between the

two.

http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/combat.htm

SO accuracy under stress substantially worse than in game!

[JonS]

I believe that at 25 yards most decent shooters could shoot a 5 inch grouping of bullets in perfect conditions. Thus, at 50 yards, you are talking about a 10 inch grouping.

Are you sure about that? You aren't shooting lazers, and I'm not sure it's valid to extrapolate out like that.

[acrashb]

dieseltaylor's quoted research is spot-on. Cpl Steiner's internet research is, no offence, of no use to the discussion. Slow-fire target shooting with modern pistols in a controlled environment vs combat shooting at small / hiding, moving, shoot-back targets under life-and-death stress - that just takes us back to dieseltaylor's research (and my direct experience which supports it).

Well-trained persons can and do exceed the posted hit rates, but well-trained (at least with a pistol) does not apply to line soldiers or to most police officers (hence the hit rates in the quoted research). Even well-trained, combat-experienced shooters can and do fall apart when stressors are applied (note "can", not "will", it just depends).

Regarding "internet research", here is the other reason it is of little value generally: the Internet Commando syndrome - while this is specific to AR-15s, it applies to other variants of the Internet Commando, who are only slightly better than the infamous Gecko45. In a nutshell, people are prone to a) only talk about their best shooting and greatly exaggerate on top of it. I have seen phenomenal groups purported to be five-shot at 100 yards which turned out to be 3-shot at 25 yards.

Summing it up, handguns are just difficult to operate with any accuracy.

[poesel]

While I was a conscript in the German army I was told that, when the Russians came, I was to take apart my P1 pistol and throw the parts at the enemy.

[cool breeze]

Has anyone tested how much experience effects pistol accuracy? Seems pretty relevant right now. Like for example I'd expect a veteran ww2 unit to do better than the average police officer. Firstly its a war so there is a lot less of the natural hesitation to kill than there is for a peace officer. Secondly they are expecting a firefight, unlike a lot of those startled police. Third they have been getting used to keeping cool under fire for a while. 4th they are only 1 step away from being crack and 2 from elite ( which I wouldn't say for the average cop). 5th if they are lined up with their buddies and are keeping cool under fire then it is a little like range shooting, like at least a few percent, and I think a lot different than a police shootout. 6) People grew up using guns more back then. 7) It doesn't seem like the pistols tolerances would matter much at the ranges and numbers of bullets fired we are talking about. I thought the problem you guys were talking about was that people dont point them in the right direction not that the guns dont shoot straight. 8) My sorta friend/exboss was fighting on point in Iraq and got shot in the leg by a untrained guy with a pistol at what he thought was way to0 long of range for him to get hit, then he dropped to his knee and put 3 rounds in his chest. So it happens. These pistol guys shoot a lot of bullets till they run out.

[cool breeze]

Oh plus in the police shooting its usually I imagine vs just one target, while in game/war its usually a few or more guys in a small area. Like in game if you have a pistol guy shooting at say 20 meters with a 5 foot grouping on crouching guys, about half the shots will go high or low, and depending on how tight the enemies are packed, maybe a 3rd of the shots in the right height will hit someone, so about 1 in 6 shots might hit, even though the grouping isn't great. I don't know maybe that grouping is way to good I just made the numbers up but my point is... I dont know I need to eat.

[Cpl Steiner]

Hi All,

Although my post was pretty much disparaged, I take no offence. It was just a suggested way of looking at pistol accuracy under "best" conditions and extrapolating from that.

I have also seen the police shootout statistics in my own internet searches and do take them on board entirely. The only problem with such data is that conditions can vary widely between different police shootouts, but they are all just rolled together to create the statistics. Lots of the shots that make up those stats were probably wildly aimed or panic fired in very poor lighting, heavy rain, or both. That's fine in a way, as it gives you the hit chance in poor conditions, which are probably more typical than good ones, but it doesn't really tell you how accurate a Luger should be in the game with good lighting conditions and no rain.

As to the comment about handguns "not being lasers", I actually disagree, for the ranges we are talking about. At an engagement range of 25 yards or less, the bullet should fly pretty much in a straight line, meaning that the same "minute of angle" which subtends a 5 inch arc at 25 yards should subtend a 10 inch arc at 50 yards. The maximum range of a pistol round is probably several hundred yards or more, so 25 or even 50 yards is a very small distance to see any noticeable deviation from a straight line. I confess, I have never fired a true handgun (only air-guns) so I could be completely wrong, but I think you probably can extrapolate bullet groupings at short ranges.

[EDIT] Again, some anecdotal forum evidence to support my claim, which you can take or leave as you wish:

A typical 9mm HP at 115 grains and 1150 fps sighted in at 4yds. will rise no more than 3 inches above bore and drop about 3 inches below bore at 100 yds. That would give you a vital zone of 6 inches in total. If you decide to use this as a pseudo "battle sight zero" your actual zero will be 82 yds. The bullets will impact at roughly 2 inches high at 25 yds with that zero and be high 2.5 inches at 50 yds. After 50 the bullet begins to drop rapidly. Hope this helps, good luck with it.

If you can get 2 inch groups at 25 yds. you might be able to get 8 inches at 100. Truthfully, I would sight it for 50 yds and be happy. If you need to shoot more than 50 yds you should be using a rifle. IMO.

Source: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278701

And here's a 9mm Luger round trajectory chart. The climb and drop of the bullet at less than 50 yards is not that much (just a couple of inches). The chart shows that the sight is zeroed for 25 yards. At 25 yards, it hits where it's pointing. At 10 yards, it's an inch low. At 50 yards, it's barely 1/4 of an inch high.

[Childress]

Everybody's discounting the suppression effect of pistol fire. Even if no one's hit the effect of bullets whistling through the foliage a few meters away will concentrate the mind wonderfully. You will slow down or cower.

[c3k]

That chart: it shows the sights are mounted 2" above the barrel. Most handguns have iron sights which are about 1/2" above the center of the muzzle. So, add 1 1/2" to the drop numbers.

Having said that, you're ignoring the psychological/physical issues of sighting and firing at 25 yards vs. 50 yards. If you place a target at 25 yards and get 5" groupings AND, simultaneously, place a backdrop at 50 yards, I agree that you'd get a 10" grouping at the 50 yard location. (Or close enough that it doesn't matter.) However, AIMING at 50 yards is far different than AIMING at 25 yards. The sights wander, your breathing and heartbeat makes a bigger difference, you SEE your sights going on and off target, there's a tendency to rush the shot when the sights cross the target which causes misses, etc., etc.

That's why they actually have shoots at different distances rather than just compute where the bullets would've landed, based on a short-range target.

Re the 20' comment: I'd be surprised at 50% hits at 20 feet in a life or death situation.

[John Kettler]

Fascinating discussion! I'd like to bring some period data to the table, in the form of a formerly Restricted combat firing training film for the M1911A1. In it, you will note, some doubtless in shock, that the U.S. Army trained on vital area (head and torso) briefly appearing targets at 50 yards for prone, 25 yards for kneeling and 15 yards for instinctive shooting. I don't yet have equivalent data for the Germans or anyone else, but I think BFC may not be as out there on pistol marksmanship as people think. One surprise was that some of the positions used both hands.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Everybody's discounting the suppression effect of pistol fire. Even if no one's hit the effect of bullets whistling through the foliage a few meters away will concentrate the mind wonderfully. You will slow down or cower.

Not really. At least, it's not being considered cos it's not the important thing. Most of the suppression my teams have suffered from pistol-totin' badass AFV crews has been because the buggers have nailed one of the team. From a 1 hand standing "duelist" stance. At 50+ yards. Through bocage. While being fired upon by Kar98s (at least). Surely at that range the rifles should have a better chance of taking out one of the tank crew first?

[Childress]

From a 1 hand standing "duelist" stance. At 50+ yards. Through bocage. While being fired upon by Kar98s (at least). Surely at that range the rifles should have a better chance of taking out one of the tank crew first?

You're right, of course. But this rates as just an anecdote.