How to defend?

[Aragorn2002]

What is the best way to defend? Although attacking is the hardest part of a battle, defending isn't easy either, to my experience. All tips, do's and dont's, rules etc. are welcome. Thank you.

[Sergei]

Crush their tanks, drive their infantry before you, hear the lamentations of their FOs.

You must plan to defend in depth so that the enemy has to first spend energy to gain enough elbow room to assault the actual targets. The first picket line(s) should not try to fight the enemy to a stand-still, just delay them enough that mortars can be brought on target and affect some casualties on their scouts. This way your enemy is also unable to bring the full brunt of his artillery on your men. Keep on the move. Also learn to tell your men to hide while waiting for the assault, initial barrages are most effective against an unprepared target.

[ZPB II]

Defense in depth with plenty of outposts and scouts like Sergei said. Be fluid and avoid static defenses, relocate before artillery smashes you. Ideally you will mess the momentum of the enemy and end up in a situation where he moves over your previous defensive positions too fast so when he engages the next defensive line he is out of sync.

[Sergei]

This is how a Finnish officer's manual from 1940 describes it:

Defensive battle

I. Defense position

The defender chooses defense positions and forms in front of and within them a network of fire in accordance with the fire plan. Defense position includes the main line of resistance (päävastarinta-asema) and the forward posts (etuvartioasema).

The forward edge of the main line of resistance is the main defense line (pääpuolustuslinja) and the most powerful effect of the firing elements is affected in the main fire zone (päätulivyöhyke) in front of it. If the enemy breaks into the main line of resistance, the main defense line must be taken back.

Main line of resistance consists of bases (platoon positions) and nests staggered in width and in depth of the line. In front of the main defense line there may be forward bases (eteentyönnetty tukikohta). Within the main line of resistance there are entrenched blocking lines (sulkulinja).

A forward post includes battle stations and in front of them an observation line where the forwardmost guards are stationed.

Defense position is divided into sectors in width.

II. General flow of defensive battle

The forward guards in the forward post may have either solely an alerting mission or it may be combined with a combat mission.

If the forward guards have only an alerting mission, they will open fire and then retreat in the instructed manner, at the same time conducting reconnaissance of the orientation of the enemy attack.

If the forward guards have a combat mission, the bases and nests of the combat forward post open fire as early as possible simultaneously attempting to distract the enemy so that it will start a prepared attack. After the combat forward guards withdraw delaying the enemy, it must further increase its attacking force to push back the combat forward guards.

After the enemy's attack formation has been noted, the chosen fire elements will open fire as the artillery conducts a counter-preparationary barrage and trying to surprise the enemy as they are forming up for the attack. Machineguns will often use indirect fire to disrupt the enemies. After the enemy has started advancing the fire elements will open up according to the fire plan with the intent to block the enemy or at least reduce its attacking power.

After the enemy has advanced to the main fire zone all fire elements of the main line of resistance will open defensive fire, which must form a systematic fire network to the main fire zone. Artillery and machineguns conduct planned fires when infantry asks for them with previously agreed signals.

If the enemy breaks into the main line of resistance despite of the defensive fire, it will be isolated with fire. Nests and bases hold their positions to the end and use their fire to assist counter-strikes made by their own reserves. The counter-strike is conducted at the time of the break-in and are directed into the enemy's flank quickly and surprisingly.

[Sgt Schultz]

I play large/huge QBs for the most part, so this will be biased towards that battle type. I got the bucks for enough toys and tools to do it right.

The average CM battle area is usually too constrained to use true mobile tactics. You have to draw the proverbial line in the sand somewhere. I usually attempt to place the bulk of my forces(MLR) well ahead of any occupy objectives. The objectives are held by HQ/FO/support troops for scoring purposes. Better to stop the enemy than try to take an objective back. The psyop factor also comes into play. If it takes all that effort just to get near the objective... what awaits the attacker now???

Scouts forward to at least attempt to pluck out the enemy's eyes. Scouts back after first contact.

TRPs on your forward positions, which should be the enemy jump-off to an objective, or other area needed by the enemy.

One hard slap with forward forces, then pull back under smoke.

Fire mission on TRP.

Second(main) line opens fire on whatever comes out of the barrage, while initial forces catch their breath and become reserve.

Main line should have foxholes/trenches(sparingly, they are not all that cheap), as the enemy will barrage the area, and your forces cannot leave. Vet/High/+1 troops for QBs make very steady main line defenders. Extreme Motivation should usually help keep 'em in their holes instead of running willy-nilly in a barrage.

If German, use best armor available to destroy enemy armor. JagdPanther is basically a win button if used intelligently, and with just a little luck. lol

If Allied, use numbers, movement, smoke and numerous other tactics to achieve flank shots. If defending against German heavy(Tiger+) armor, buy zook/PIAT teams and hide the f*%kers very well and deep near likely advance lanes. SLOW move them when you hear the rumble and the enemy troops have(hopefully) passed by. Pray that the glare from your burning Shermans distract the enemy long enough for a shot or two.

ATGs/IGs are sacrificial units on defense. Make sure you can get your money's worth before they go poof. Ensure their foxholes can be occupied by reserve troops once the gun is out of action. It was a good spot right? Keep it as long as possible.

Single HMG bunkers behind main line can help defend against rushes and may cause enemy to use more smoke. HMG teams are like trailers in a tornado's path. The more you need them, the greater the chance a random mortar round will land right on the gun crew. The bunker is worth it for that last-ditch support weapon.

81mm off-map mortars and all the TRPs you can afford are better than squandering points on large-bore silliness. You must react quickly, and Vet mortars paired with Vet FOs working with TRPS helps make that happen. A decent TRP web and three to five batteries can just flat out ruin an attacker's day.

On-map 81s for point targets. Purchase at least one with ammo vehicle whenever possible. Share ammo with cheaper teams that can be purchased separately. Just pay shipping and handling.

EDIT -

German tip - Scout and Tank Hunter Teams can be used to make an old-skool supertoon/SMG toon. Not cheap, but will puree anything within 80 metres. Strip a platoon of all squads. Replace with 4-6 Scout Teams, 3x Tank Hunter Teams, and 2-3 LMG teams. Voila. Buy a vehicle and stock up on 9mm, as these fellas can go through it. Urban, or reverse-slope foxhole/trench... anywhere you can engage at short range, this line should hold until something heavy comes by. Again, this is also a psyop experience for the enemy commander. You have to see them at work from both sides to appreciate it.

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Then there is the Fionn Kelly "Defense".

Load up a flank, and hit the attacker with everything you have. Pre-planned barrages that seal off your lane. Smoke everywhere and massive infantry charge. Break through with armor into the enemy rear and just have a grand old time watching the enemy react. EDIT - Germans are just wonderful at counter-attacking. The equipment mix available makes a schwerpunkt force that can be quite a handful.

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[slysniper]

Sgt Schultz

Some good and interesting advice.

It sure does remind me of why I do not enjoy playing QB's.

Some of you Guys get really masterful at crafting forces that give you some great abilities on the field of play.

As to the original question. Keep in mind , it is actually harder to play good defense. It takes more skill and experence to normally be good at defense, many players do not develope good defensive tactic.

In scenario play, it becomes even more challenging. because you are not able to select your forces. So each battle is giving different units to work with, and many a time they are lacking some of the tools to make a solid defensive set up. So learning to adapt to what you have and situation can be very challenging.

So just keep that in mind, you are looking for good concepts. but there really is not one set of rules that will be able to be followed to lead to the best answer for what is needed.

[sburke]

Sgt Schultz

Some good and interesting advice.

It sure does remind me of why I do not enjoy playing QB's.

Some of you Guys get really masterful at crafting forces that give you some great abilities on the field of play.

As to the original question. Keep in mind , it is actually harder to play good defense. It takes more skill and experence to normally be good at defense, many players do not develope good defensive tactic.

In scenario play, it becomes even more challenging. because you are not able to select your forces. So each battle is giving different units to work with, and many a time they are lacking some of the tools to make a solid defensive set up. So learning to adapt to what you have and situation can be very challenging.

So just keep that in mind, you are looking for good concepts. but there really is not one set of rules that will be able to be followed to lead to the best answer for what is needed.

Funny, maybe just a matter of perspective I prefer defense. I feel it is really really hard to put together a good offense in CM (especially in CMBN bocage country). It could be just a matter of experience (I have played defense a lot more often), but trying to put together an offensive plan is harder for me than putting together a defensive one. However you are right about choices when it comes to scenarios. I fought one CMBN-CW module battle recently and when laying out my initial defense I looked around and thought, where the f**k are my PzShk? Uh oh.... It is a good thing though as you learn (well you hope to anyway- I'm still working on that) how to use different tools.

I haven't leaned toward QBs as I tend to look at them as these strange "what if" hodepodge of choices. Nothing wrong with it, the Germans in particular frequently threw together ad hoc formations especially during MG. Just not my cup of tea - yet.

[c3k]

It's interesting how well this game replicates the "meat grinder" aspect of this kind of battle. Whether you're on offense or defense, your front men WILL get chewed up. The only way to limit this is to put a screen up.

If you're on offense, that means a few scouts. Yeah, they'll die. But hopefully they'll allow your main force to find the defender's location. Call in the arty to pin the defenders, then manuever your forces. Oh, and that manuevering? Yeah, you'll find more defenders.

On defense, a thin screen up front to stop those scouts, a dug in, hidden main line, with fall backs and flank defenses will take so much out the attackers that their assault should stop. Don't think a strong "wall" will stop the attack. You need a "cushion" to absorb the impetus. Defend several bocage lines with light forces rather than one line with all your force.

At the end of a battle, it's likely that both sides will have suffered a LOT of casualties from their engaged platoons.

Ken

[Sgt Schultz]

I fought one CMBN-CW module battle recently and when laying out my initial defense I looked around and thought, where the f**k are my PzShk? Uh oh.... It is a good thing though as you learn (well you hope to anyway- I'm still working on that) how to use different tools.

I haven't leaned toward QBs as I tend to look at them as these strange "what if" hodepodge of choices. Nothing wrong with it, the Germans in particular frequently threw together ad hoc formations especially during MG. Just not my cup of tea - yet.

Hehe, that is why it is so difficult for me to play scenarios now. I look at my OOB and say "WTF! I am missing some things that I need to accomplish my objective in a orderly proficient and military manner."

See HTH Valley of The Shadow for what I consider to be a good mix for both sides. Balance, and opportunity for both sides, is more important than historical accuracy for me.

I like to feel like I am bringing my force onto the battlefield fresh, not taking over for some loser that had his force smacked around until he was relieved of command, or was killed in action. I take care of my boys, they more truppen than pixel to me, and seeing a half-crushed force as my starting units in a scenario just makes me mad. lol

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For defense in a scenario, one may wish to closely examine the terrain, forces available, and objectives. Think of what you would have liked to have. Look at what you got. "Missing" capabilities usually equate to greater casualties and smaller area available for coherent defense. Don't let the designer or the briefing sucker you into defending three objectives, when keeping one, and greater attacker casualties, will get you the draw and a "historical" win. Look up sadism, and you may see portraits of CM scenario designers. I use the Reagan approach to briefings... "Trust, but verify."

Pick your spots, then fight like a cornered badger for them with the best mix you can create with what was given to you. The attacker will usually try to flow around to a point of lesser resistance. He may be working with a less than optimal force choice as well.

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In either QB or scenarios, distance = time. Depth is the defenders friend, and that is completely map-dependent. The more depth you have before the objectives, the more ticks off the clock you can force if you can resist JUST enough to force deployment and artillery response, without incurring casulaties.

- SMOKE! - I sometimes feel like a lost voice about my favorite tool in the box, for either attack or defense.

Gentle or Light Wind in any direction but straight in your face, or away, can be a critical help. Smoke is sometimes the only way to remove a force from a situation that has gone t*ts up.

I have occasionally used TRP placement on defense more for where I know I will need smoke missions to GTFO than for HE missions. Imagine the frustration of an attacking commander when a force ambushes him and gets away clean into a smoke screen. Sure, go ahead and chase them into that screen. Nothing bad ever happens then.

Any limited counter-attack to retake an objective should use smoke support. By the time something like that needs to happen, the forces involved will be quite brittle.

Look at EVERY smoke-capable infantry unit. Keep the ones you want to burn first upwind. Having three teams with smoke grenades sitting at the downwind side of a battle can make one feel rather foolish when noticed too damn late.

Know how many pop smokes your vehicles have. JagdPzIV is just sick, and all Sherman models have like 12-16. Risking a tank for the time it takes to pop smoke to save an entire infantry platoon... you do the math as the situation warrants.

If he wants the spot that damn bad, then let him have it .... for now. Smoke allows you to come back later for a rematch instead of making some Alamo last stand. Martyrs all have one thing in common... they're dead.

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[Karac]

I strongly advise to watch this tutorial about defending. Really good stuff:

[Aragorn2002]

All very useful and informative, gentlemen, thank you very much. Please keep them coming. Your lessons already improved my gameplay.

Great tutorial too btw.

[John Kettler]

Aragorn2002,

Tenaciously! I'm much better at defense than attack, and Clausewitz considered the defense stronger than the attack.

Sergei provided a detailed model of how the Finns did it, and when you look at the casualties they inflicted, the Finns clearly knew their business.

The Germans used to concentrate on holding the shoulders of a breakthrough, so that their counterattacks could seal off the penetration, but I don't know whether that's relevant at this level. What is relevant is that they had their own positions preregistered (TRPed in our parlance), which was most unpleasant for the newly arrived, disorganized and cut up "victors," who were promptly counterattacked. The downside? The German counterattacks were so predictable it led to the slaughter of many troops involved.

What the game doesn't model is forces digging in rapidly, and by rapidly, I mean even while under fire. Quick counterattack was mandatory in the East, for the Germans soon learned that if they didn't do so, the price was going to be a set piece regimental assault later on. The Russians were famous diggers and camouflagers. I wish we could go from bare ground, to field scrapes, to foxholes, to positions with overhead cover. That would be cool!

Wire comms are the defender's friend, as are trip flares and illuminating rounds, neither of which we have. If defending, buy mines if you can, and be sure to cover them with weapon fires to prevent clearing. Wire is very good, too. And the two combined are even better, especially if you put the wire in places where the enemy will want to go when under fire and hard for you to cover. Use every obstacle you can to channel the attack into kill sacks, and have alternate positions prepared. Not sure how to do this in the game.

Be creative, be perverse. Poke out his eyes (scouts). Be where he least expects you, hit, then get out. This is especially important when facing someone with lots of fire support. Use weapons as stealthily as possible (snipers are wonderful at range); avoid revealing your system of fire until it's too late for your opponent.

Think delay, disruption, forcing the enemy to deploy, and attrition that can't be answered in kind. Block high speed routes--with the wrecks of the enemy! Mass fires on small elements to cripple or break them, then find another target and do the same. Avoid sustained fire from any position unless forced to do so.

The target is always the mind of the enemy commander. Screw with that enough, and the battle's half won already!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andrew H.]

I find that the defensive battle is generally won during the setup phase. This means that the defender needs to carefully analyze the terrain, likely approaches, bottlenecks, etc.

I tend not to play extremely large battles (and I tend to play QBs), so I find I'm usually not able to do significant maneuvering once the main battle has been joined - I may be able to commit some dedicated reserves, or slightly shift some troops, but if I try to do wholesale reinforcing it turns into a meeting engagement where I am significantly outnumbered.

Speaking very generally, I think that the most valuable defensive weapon is a properly concealed AT gun (75mm or larger). These are almost impossible to spot until they fire, deadly against tanks *and* infantry, and usually harder to knock out than tanks. Of course, they are also basically immobile, so you have to put them in the right position - I like them far in the back, in cover, covering the flanks.

Smoke is my biggest fear as a defender - if the attacker can blind me with smoke and then rush in to areas with cover, I've lost a lot of my advantage right there.

[Mord]

Funny, maybe just a matter of perspective I prefer defense. I feel it is really really hard to put together a good offense in CM (especially in CMBN bocage country). It could be just a matter of experience (I have played defense a lot more often), but trying to put together an offensive plan is harder for me than putting together a defensive one.

LOL yeah, I think it big part of that, at least for me is the fear I have when attacking up until the first bullets/shells start flying. It's nerve wracking. Where are they? Did I split my forces right? Does this platoon have enough support. Am I gonna lose this important tank if I move there...Etc.

With defense, it's easier 'cause you basically just react to what comes into sight. Shift something here, shift something there...counterattack this spot...that sorta thing. It's difficult in its own right, but a different kind...less stress I suppose. That's the way it feels to me anyway.

Mord.

[John Kettler]

Andrew H.,

I neglected to say you should always have a reserve and definitely need to TRP the FPL (Final Protective Line), now that MGs can use them even when smoke's present. This represents interlocking grazing fires and the use of aiming stakes. Theoretically, you could do this with an antitank gun, too, but I haven't tried it. For sure, in a big battle, that wouldn't be fun--having an invisible gun pounding a key road junction. The static nature of the antitank gun based defense, together with Stalin's implacable "Not one step back" led to their being called "Farewell the Motherland!" I think, though, that if the map will support it, there are ways to hit and get out.

A friendly smokescreen, for example, could provide the break contact opportunity needed, as does taking the gun out of a keyhole firing position or rolling it back from a screened crest, a gully lip or similar. Naturally, this is much easier to do with lighter weapons, save the later 88s (FlaK 36) which should be allowed to fire from the carriage while still hooked to the prime mover. Something else which the defense doesn't have but should are shelters for heavy weapons (not bunkers) in which the weapons are protected during the prep fires, but then trundled into firing position to properly greet the foe. Bellona had a great pub showing the German ones, and they were quite a revelation to me at the time.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Baneman]

I must agree with Andrew H - it will greatly aid your defence if you take your time when setting up. Check LoS from every nook and cranny. Preplan how you're going to get troops ( you never have enough ) to the next spot to defend and try to make sure you can move men laterally if the main enemy thrust is somewhere you're weak.

I can spend hours on setup - the turns after that tend to need very little time in comparison.

Map preview is also a great feature - check it out before you even buy your troops so you know what not to get.

and hope for "spotting luck"

[JonS]

I can spend hours on setup - the turns after that tend to need very little time in comparison.

Haha, yeah. And it's the exact opposite for attacking - I tend to spend relatively little time on an attacking setup, just positioning stuff according to a general plan that I fully intend to modify on the fly as the situation develops.

So, my rule of thumb is ...

Defence: hours on set up, minutes on turns

Offence: minutes on set up, hours on turns

[sburke]

Haha, yeah. And it's the exact opposite for attacking - I tend to spend relatively little time on an attacking setup, just positioning stuff according to a general plan that I fully intend to modify on the fly as the situation develops.

So, my rule of thumb is ...

Defence: hours on set up, minutes on turns

Offence: minutes on set up, hours on turns

Yeah that is pretty much my experience. If you have to move a lot in defence (especially at the beginning of the game) you likely screwed up and mis read what options the attacker has..not that I haven't done that....

[Childress]

Wire comms are the defender's friend, as are trip flares (sic) and illuminating rounds, neither of which we have.

I demand tripflares!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripflare

(Sorry about the 'sic', John. Couldn't resist )

[Sakai007]

In the armchair general vid linked earlier in the thread, 3 hours alone were spent on setting up the defense. It is vital. I am one of those few I guess who prefers to attack then defend. It is tense in the beginning, up until you make contact, then things become simple. As the attacker, I choose when and where to meet this well laid out defense. I can bring any number of weapons to bear on a very small area and kill everything I meet in a slow methodical fashion. On the defense, you are at the mercy of enemy arty, and the fact that they may have found a way to approach you that you didn't cover. In the bocage, this is the use of Rhino tanks or engineers. I prefer the rhino, as it doesn't make a huge explosion when you break through a hedge, but anything that allows you to engage enemy forces in a vulnerable position is fine by me!

[John Kettler]

Childress,

Am going to have to protest that call, seeing as how the second entry in Google is this

AMTEC Less-Lethal Systems, Inc. - M49A1 Trip Flare

www.lesslethal.com/index.php?page=m49a1-trip-flareDescription: The M49A1 Trip Flare is an early warning signaling device used to warn of infiltrating troops by illuminating the area surrounding the trip flare.

as are almost all the succeeding ones!

Sakai007,

Before I wiped out my post by searching in the wrong tab (this one), I wrote of several concerns I had about the game. First, the Allied players have the toolbox to break the hedgerows, which their historical counterparts didn't until very late in the campaign. In turn, this creates an additional and major advantage for the already well equipped and well supported Americans. I suggested that some thought be given to compensating the Germans for the loss of a key defensive advantage they had historically. I point out that Rhinos were scarce (under 60 total, I believe) in the big breakout and that engineer resources needed for explosive breaching on any major scale were enormous. See Doubler's CLOSING WITH THE ENEMY for details.

In addition, while I take the points of a bunch of you on setup times as the defender, I feel obliged to note that time--when you really need it-- is a scarce commodity in war. Three hours may be appropriate for the prepared defense, but what if your forces have just seized someplace and are facing a rapid counterattack? There, you don't have three hours, but still have to set up your defenses. We have no SOPs, no topo maps a seasoned eye can take in at a glance, no noncoms chewing on people to get it done, now! Some allowances have to be made for that, but I think setup time should at least roughly correspond to the notional tactical situation. Something to think about!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sakai007]

You make some very good points John. Many scenarios I've played have no rhino equipped tanks and it's frustrating like it should be. In a QB type situation, I find it hard to tell a player not to use a tool at his disposal because there were only a few in service in reality. If the two players want to agree on something, that is fine, but I don't think it tips the scales so far into the allied direction as to make the fight unfair.

I almost want to confine myself to certain time limits in setup when the situation states that I am being pressed by the enemy. We have the luxury of taking all the time in the world to set up an ad hoc defense that should really be set up in a half hour at most. Honestly, since we have far more direct control over our forces then any company or battalion commander would have, the time should be shortened. I may very well try this in the future, just to add a little role playing to my war gaming.

[womble]

...I think setup time should at least roughly correspond to the notional tactical situation. Something to think about!

You're forgetting the inherent disadvantages of:

• Not having any idea of what troops you've got before you open the scenario. Analysis of your strengths and weaknesses can take time. Sorting the units out from the dog's breakfast they get deployed in can take a good old while with a large QB.
  
• Having to do everything serially and in detail. IRL, the "Old Man" sets his looies general tasks, and they each go away and start working on those in parallel, using their NCOs to get several things done at once. In setup you have to address each element in turn.
  
• Not having actual eyes on the ground. The simulation isn't perfect, and your view of it is less so. Terrain appreciation that can be accomplished by eye in a couple of minutes can take 10 times that using the LOS tools in-game.
  

No, prep time shouldn't reflect real life, because the game doesn't.

[John Kettler]

womble,

Those are good points, but I think that, in certain situations at least, there ought to be something closer to realistic setup times.

The Israelis used to teach this skill by forcing commanders to plan and organize battalion or regimental attacks (forget which), then disrupt the whole process and cut the allotted time drastically (by half, I think) in mid planning cycle. They'd do this over and over again until commanders learned to think on their feet, throw together quick battle plans and be able to execute on the fly. The results speak for themselves. The IDF is renowned for its ability to exercise initiative, seize every opportunity and generally run roughshod over the opposition-provided mindsets higher up don't block that natural flow. That's when you have the 190th Armored Brigade being massacred by SAGGER and RPG-7 fires while attacking without infantry support, Israel being caught flatfooted in the Yom Kippur War because the head of Israeli Military intelligence's "Concept" "The Arabs won't attack" (rejecting, a la Monty before Market Garden, any evidence to the contrary) and the complete failure to grok what modern air defenses could do, resulting in such severe losses the IAF had to abandon CAS until the air defenses were breached--by tanks!

I look forward to the day when we finally have a topo overlay, for then things will be much easier. I agree the workload's presently high, and I have no idea how people are able to run battalion level engagements, especially if they're breaking down squads into fire teams. Makes my head spin, it does!

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

...do this over and over again until commanders learned to think on their feet, throw together quick battle plans and be able to execute on the fly.

When we have a TacAI that think your point will be relevant.