How to defend?

[Frankster65]

Great thread gentlemen. This should be a sticky IMHO.

[Aragorn2002]

What is the best setting for defending troops? Should they hide with or without a cover arc?

[Sakai007]

As far as running Battalion level engagements, every fight breaks down into small firefights and armor engagements at some point. I tend to run large scenarios in WeGo just so I don't miss things that I shouldn't. Where CM is awesome is the Company and Platoon level fight. Larger then that and the amount of control you have becomes a liabilty instead of an advantage.

[sburke]

What is the best setting for defending troops? Should they hide with or without a cover arc?

There is no generic answer for that, it is too dependent on what you are trying to do, the terrain etc.

For example at the start of a mission almost all of my units that don't have something specific to be doing are gerneally hiding - it increase survivability from Arty.

Units in outposts/observation positions should be spotting. Covered arcs depend on how much visibility your unit has. If there is cover for an approaching enemy too close, you don't want a covered arc inhibiting their ability to respond.

[Sgt Schultz]

Sneaking(SLOW) away from the enemy with a covered arc facing back towards the enemy works. Your men will spin around and engage until enemy is dead or ?, then spin back and keep crawling.

This works wonderfully when engaged in tall crop fields like #4, and Xtra Tall(Ninja™) Grass, as well as Heavy Forest. The attacker is by definition making more racket than SLOW if he is catching up, and the covered arc seems to partially negate the facing attention attributes.

Slow Retrgrade Ambush. Try it when the terrain allows.

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[Erwin]

According to BF, troops that are hiding are really hiding - head in the dirt, not looking around or seeing anything, and that is why one should NEVER use HIDE if one is trying to make an ambush - the enemy could just walk all over your hiding guys and kill em where they lie.

My understanding from reading all the posts on this matter since CMBN came out, is that putting a covered arc on HIDING troops does very little - unless for some reason they UNHIDE on their own (AI) initiative and you want to make sure they don't start shooting at anything outside that covered arc. ie: A CM2 HIDE command with covered arc does NOT work like it did in CM1 (and that's a pity actually).

[JonS]

According to BF, troops that are hiding are really hiding - head in the dirt, not looking around or seeing anything, and that is why one should NEVER use HIDE if one is trying to make an ambush - the enemy could just walk all over your hiding guys and kill em where they lie.

True if they're working alone, but if you have something on overwatch you can surprise the bejeezuz out of the enemy by using hide until they get really close, then at a time informed by the overwatch team (who're watching the enemy's approach) un-hide your shooters and unleash hell.

[Sergei]

According to BF, troops that are hiding are really hiding - head in the dirt, not looking around or seeing anything, and that is why one should NEVER use HIDE if one is trying to make an ambush - the enemy could just walk all over your hiding guys and kill em where they lie.

Not really so. Even when they're hiding, they will every once in a while raise their heads to spot the surroundings.

[Childress]

Are you sure about that, Jon? Unless this is something new with CMFI. I tried this technique in CMBN to no avail; namely an HQ overlooking from the 2nd floor a CA endowed squad hiding behind a wall below . Mind, This wasn't tested thoroughly.

But if true, it really opens up the tactical options.

[JonS]

Not really so. Even when they're hiding, they will every once in a while raise their heads to spot the surroundings.

True, and it seems to me that there's almost always at least one fellow with his head up and spotting, while the remainder hide - although that probably depends a bit on unit size. But if they're behind a low wall (and maybe other terrain types?) they won't lift up high enough to see over it.

[JonS]

Are you sure about that, Jon? Unless this is something new with CMFI. I tried this technique in CMBN to no avail; namely an HQ overlooking from the 2nd floor a CA endowed squad hiding behind a wall below . Mind, This wasn't tested thoroughly.

But if true, it really opens up the tactical options.

Well, you have to trip it yourself - that is pick the time and manually un-hide the guys - but it definately can work . . . sometimes even by accident

[Childress]

So, no go in wego....

[JonS]

So, no go in wego....

uuh ... I never play RT, so ... yes go in WEGO

[Sgt Schultz]

IIRC Defenders on Hide at battle start get a stealth bonus.

I use Hide for defense at start for all units that do not need to either move or be spotting on turn 1.

The concealment bonus that this action gives for defenders is worth having blind men for a while.

If Hiding in concealing natural terrain such as XT Grass, the occasional "spotting" soldier is enough to activate short covered arcs(<100m). Walls and buildings and hedges block too much LOS for that quick peek to do much, if any, good.

Close C2(face/voice) from Hiding units to non-hiding HQ that sees valid targets may also activate covered arcs/unhide. If the Lt sees something and yells to his platoon "they're right in front of you!", things should happen once the info goes down the chain according to whatever experience/motivation/leadership modifiers are plugged into the equation.

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This is all anecdotal, as I do not have the time to do lots of testing ATM. I have witnessed these behaviors though.

[Childress]

uuh ... I never play RT, so ... yes go in WEGO

It can work, yes, you're right. But I find it sub-optimal since, as you admitted, it requires manual input; one's at the mercy of the clock intervals. I recall it was automatic in CM1, but I'm sure BF had their reasons for adjusting the mechanism.

[JonS]

... it requires manual input ... it was automatic ...

Well. Yeah. That's the game. If things happened perfectly and automatically CM would be kind of a boring game, wouldn't it?

Make better decisions and use better timing than your opponent: win! :cool:

Make worse decisions and use worse timing than your opponent: lose!

Watch both sides make automated decisions with little input from either player: yawn!

[sfhand]

Hiding squads with target arcs can turn into executions if you don't unhide them in time... don't ask me how I know.

[Erwin]

+1 to that. Ambush in WEGO using the HIDE command and a short arc is usually suicide. Just cos you have someone on overwatch does nothing if you can't stop the clock to UNHIDE.

The CM1 method was much more "satisfactory". I use that word as maybe it wasn't "realistic" per milpro/grog standards. But, it had verisimilitude, and CM1 ambushes actually worked.

[JonS]

CM1 ambushes actually worked.

CM1 ambushes actually worked? What is that supposed to mean - CM2 ambushes don't work?

Are you really unable to execute an ambush in CM2?

[slysniper]

CM1 ambushes actually worked? What is that supposed to mean - CM2 ambushes don't work?

Are you really unable to execute an ambush in CM2?

The answer to that is simple, they would not be making such statements if they could.

So why not explain some of the ways to make them sucessful.

Here is one tip for wego play. Since some of you seem to be getting ambushed yourselves because your men do not unhide and fire before the enemy does.

One simple thing I do is since I want my closest units to the enemy to not open up until the enemy is so close that I know I will kill them. I set my overwatch with arcs to the location where I want the enemy to be hit in the ambush. Now instead of them walking on top of my front line units before I can unhide them. Overwatch will prevent that, they will open up, stop the enemy for the turn and I can unlease the rest of the ambush on the next turn. it is not as good, because the enemy has gone to ground, but it is safe. Most of the time I never need it. Even playing wego, I unhide my units when I see the enemy about ready to hit that point. Seldom even in a minute time frame do I have problems with the timing.

I think the only time it has messed me up is if I do not see the enemy approach, then hiding units can be bad news. But if you have allowed that to happen then you deserve to see your men get gunned down.

[Sergei]

The answer to that is simple, they would not be making such statements if they could.

I don't really understand what is so hard about it.

[womble]

+1 to that. Ambush in WEGO using the HIDE command and a short arc is usually suicide. Just cos you have someone on overwatch does nothing if you can't stop the clock to UNHIDE.

So don't use Hide. It's mostly unnecessary. I've executed many ambushes (mostly against the AI, but I've had success against humans too) without using the Hide order. If there's any chance the ambushees will get overrun before the end of the minute (i.e. if you're not absolutely certain they won't), take them off Hide.

The CM1 method was much more "satisfactory".

Only because youre refusing to let go of CM1 methodologies.

...it had verisimilitude...

Really? The fact you had to tell your pTruppen to hide struck you as more representative of reality than the pTruppen seeking the best cover in the AS relative to their facing automatically?

...CM1 ambushes actually worked.

As do CMx2 ones. You just have to learn how to set them up. Hint: Hide is not a default.

[sburke]

here's my 2 cents, way over inflated but what the hell that's the way things seem to work in the world...

my problem with an ambush command that EXACTLY always unleashes an optimal ambush is it takes away from me the decision making portion. This is extreme I realize but other folks have been asking for formation commands - so when someone says I want a formation command for "defend" that has all my units set up their defense, how far removed is that?

Right now no, the game does not always execute what you want perfectly, but the amount of options is pretty awesome. Knowing when to use them in combination and timing it is another issue. I had a recent ambush attempt on JonS. It seemed to me to almost be perfect. He had a scout advancing, I had a scout team hiding. I spotted his guys at the end of a turn very close. Cool! thinks I. Man I am just drooling at the pain I am about to inflict and I think I can get away scot free. So at the start of the turn I have them unhide and give them a decent pause to chew up his scouts and then a quick move out so by end of turn they are out of LOF again.

I get the turn back... right at the start of the turn his guys have gone to ground, I now have no enemy in sight. Crap, okay at least my guys are gonna split...then I see the unknown unit icons rather close and I mutter "uh oh this isn't looking good", so my guys at the end of the pause stand up and start to take off and BAM! 2 dead scouts. I grumble and mumble and on with the show. Now if his guys had kept moving they'd likely be dead, then his other guys might have opened fire, but I was still in my foxholes so I had a decent chance of giving as good as I got. Luck of the draw.

[Erwin]

I find it strange that one has to depend on the God's eye picture to play effectively after all the effort has been made to make the game more realistic. What sburke described above is an attempt to game the system rather than do anything realistic.

In RL, why would the ambushers stand up to shoot after the attackers have just gone to ground, and then move away from their xnt defensive location to get shot down? What I see above is a failed ambush thanks to the system not allowing a sensible ambush to be executed.

In RT, maybe the above would work cos one can immediately PAUSE and adjust. But, in WEGO one has to fight the system and throw RL concepts away.

I have absolutely no problem with that cos I have always known that the CM series is a great entertainment product not a great simulation. So, I don't expect a high level of realism. But, given that it is a game, the ambushes I still spring in CM1 tournaments (which are going great btw) are more satisfying and effective than the convoluted process described above which imo resulted in a more "unrealistic" outcome than in CM1.

But, I emphasize, I love the game even with its many flaws.

[JonS]

In RL, why would the ambushers stand up to shoot after the attackers have just gone to ground, and then move away from their xnt defensive location to get shot down?

Because in Real Life an ambush location is NOT "xnt defensive location" where you intend to hang about. It is a location from which you try to inflict lopsided casualties before bugging out. They stood up and moved away because that's what he ordered them to do. And, being good little pixeltruppen, they obeyed their commander.

With 20/20 hindsight it's obvious to me that sburke, bless him, screwed his orders up. He should have left his guys in place for the whole minute, then bugged out at the start of the next turn, rather than trying to get a few shots in and getting away this turn. His guys were in a great location from where they could break LOS after moving back just a couple of metres, so there was less urgency to get away right now, and if he'd left them longer to get a few hits in first my guys would have been down and trying to dig a shellscrape with their noses rather than returning fire. That would have allowed them to break contact next turn quite easily.

So I have to ask; why should I be punished because he gave bad orders?

And, despite his poor orders, my guys were still really lucky to get away with it, even though orders I had given were quite appropriate to the task.

I had good orders and some luck. He had bad orders and less luck. The outcome was a good one. Why change that?