Decision time

[Vark]

Ok, I am finally about to 'retire' my aged Dell computer to the 'PC rest home in the sky' and replace it with a new model and have but one question. Should I buy CMBN? I have played the demo and not been impressed but that probably is because my old machine made the experience so painful. I have read most posts so want to know.

A) The real advantages of the game over CM1 (which has provided hundreds of hours of enjoyment)

the problems that can be dealt with by work arounds or pose problems but do not eclipse A).

I'm very tempted now that the CW module is coming out (most of my Normandy knowledge is based on this area of the battle) and am especially interested in the Airborne actions at the edge of the bridgehead.

So a quick, nice/ bleugh but you can live with it, list would be very useful. I am aware most of this information is available in previous posts but most nights are spent working so I do not as much time as I would like submerging myself in this wonderfully informative network. I also realise, if I buy this product, I am creating a potential nightmare for myself, but mental self-flagelation, with attendant feelings of guilty pleasure has always been my speciality!

[dieseltaylor]

I am ambivalent, possibly because I feel faintly betrayed by the armour modelling. However there is no doubt it can be very immersive and graphically stunning.

If you like playing other humans I am tempted to return to CMx1 as you can have much larger battles which allows for more movement and if you use Helper much quicker games. If you play primarily against yourself, or prefer small scenarios, then I would definitely be using CMBN.

I suspect you will need to play CMBN to make up your own mind! : )

[poesel]

I've never played CMx1 or CMSF but bought CMBN when it came out. I still play and enjoy it - that is longer than most other games I've played.

There is a bleugh list and you have to learn to live with some quirks of the game. But no show stopper. Also these items get acknowledged and addressed. Slowly but eventually.

Patience is a virtue inside and outside the game

[Agua]

Why don't you play the demo on your new machine then figure out if you like it?

[gautrek]

A) The real advantages of the game over CM1 (which has provided hundreds of hours of enjoyment)

I found that CMBN was not the game i was waiting for.I haven't touched it in months now.I used to have numerous CMBB PBEM games on the go with my regular gaming mate.But we tried to like CMBN but after a few half hearted attempts at playing we have both stopped.

Its just a bit MEH for us.Its gone from being a fun easy to play bit of fun to an anally retentive serious wargame.I find it a chore to play now and that has made us stop playing.

If we could get CMBB working on my mates windoze 7 machine we would be playing that now instead of not playing CMBN

[Vark]

I feel faintly betrayed by the armour modelling.

Why, what is the problem? I did get a little suspicious about the robustness of the M4 but wondered if my judgement had been clouded by too many 70's-80's games.

Patience is a virtue inside and outside the game

I only have it if I'm 'hunting' something!

Thanks for the replies, all these little insights are helpful.

[Childress]

All the CM games evolve over time. Sometimes drastically as in the case of CMSF. It's a bit unfair to compare CMBN to CMBB or CMBO. The latter had 12 patches CMBN has had one. Personally, I could never go back to the CM1 series, finding the current one more engrossing, more challenging and, well, prettier. People forget the birthing pains of the earlier titles.

One thing to consider: CMBN may not be for you if you lack patience. Like Shock Force it punishes impulsive, ill considered tactics. Whack!

[xian]

Wow - you have received quite a few replies with a negative bias, but I guess everyone has their own set of expectations.

I have played both CMx1 and CMx2 and in my opinion CMBN is far superior. Sure, it does take a little more involvement to get the best out of it and there are still a few teething troubles, but I wouldn't return to the old CMx1 series.

Personally I think CMBN brilliantly manages to maintain the tricky balance between a game and a simulation.

I loved CMx1 and I think that CMBN is a worthy successor.

Another plus point is that it will only get better as time goes on and new modules and updates are released.

[Odin]

Personally I love the new CMBN. It has been some years since I've played a CMx1 game but I think on balance I prefer CMBN. Improvements to infantry, and especially the individual modelling of each squad member is a big step forward. The graphics are another boon. Whilst I understand a large proportion of players don't necessarily place graphics high up on their priorities, there is no denying CMx2 is a big improvement in this department.

I'm not sure how big some of the maps are which dieseltaylor has been playing in CMx1, but I've managed to crank out some fairly large scenarios on CMBN. 'Huzzar' and 'Carbide Carbide' being examples of scenarios with plenty of room for manoeuvre in my opinion. I've also had some great PBEM games using CMBN and can highly recommend the H2H Helper mod, which makes playing online so much easier.

It'll be interesting to see how the patch coming out with the CW module will change things, I expect it should be for the good.

My advice - for the price give it a go.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The upcoming patch is supposed to address some of the performance issues. But you won't be able to test it out without buying the game until they update the demo. I have no idea when or if they intend to do that.

[Vark]

Why don't you play the demo on your new machine then figure out if you like it?

Good idea, but I thought some serious problems, such as tank plinking with SMG's, had been fixed in the later releases?

One thing to consider: CMBN may not be for you if you lack patience. Like Shock Force it punishes impulsive, ill considered tactics. Whack!

I found that ignoring the little voice saying, " don't move your tank there" or "careful that AT gun is probably only suppressed, not KO'd", very painful in CM1, is it even worse in CM2?

[A co]

CM was a better game, CMBN is a better simulation. But I much prefer CMBN now because CM doesn't present new sights, new problems and new rewards.(As a game system I mean- sure CM will always have new scenarios and new opponents, but not new dynamics). Even the difficulties of CMBN which you've read about on the forums are at least interesting to try to work around to win the battle- and in the long run your opponents have to deal with them as much as you do.

CMBN is harder to play, less smooth, presents more friction, and more stumbling blocks. Casualties are more dismaying. Trying to get enemy troops in your sights is more frustrating. But it's interesting in a different way. There's more to learn. It's good.

There's no guarantee you'll like it, but if you can afford the price it would be a shame not to try it.

[umlaut]

I agree with Xian and Odin.

I played CM1 for years and loved it - and the first few weeks after CMBN was released I felt a bit disappointed that the scale wasn´t as large as CM1. Now I couldn´t imagine going back.

Why? Because the new infantry modelling means that I now enjoy playing infantry only battles - something I wouldn´t dream of doing in CM1. I regarded CM1 infantry mostly as a nuisance, a nessecary evil.

I think company sized battles in CMBN feel a lot like batallion sized battles in CM1. There´s just more "action" per squad now than before.

I think in my own case the biggest hurdle was accepting the fact that CM2 is not just CM1 with fancier graphics: It is a new game, but much better in most ways, IMHO.

Not that it is perfect - far from it. Lots of things need to be improved. And some CM1 elements should be brought into CM2 - cover armor arcs, for instance.

But I havent´t played any other game since may last year.

[Childress]

If you like playing other humans I am tempted to return to CMx1 as you can have much larger battles which allows for more movement and if you use Helper much quicker games. If you play primarily against yourself, or prefer small scenarios, then I would definitely be using CMBN.

There are some expansive maps available for CMBN. One thing to remember is the setting; much of action unfolds in claustrophobic terrain which forced the Americans to struggle with the bocage network. The Brits found themselves in generally more open terrain. Armor will be prominent and both sides in that sector found themselves constrained with manpower issues.

So the upcoming modules will test the engine in different ways; Commonwealth stressing maneuver- tank to tank engagements, sometimes at stand off ranges- and Market Garden/Arnhem urban warfare.

[Sarge]

bought CMBO.. wow..

bought CMBB.. Man! what an improvement, wish they apply all improvements to CMBO

bought CMAK.. oh, geez this is outstanding and how can i go back to CMBO - ever? (Didn't)

bought CMBN.. are you kidding? this is 100x's better than any of the CMx1 series! even before CW, patches, or add-on's.

how so?

i've deleted the CMx1's - and wonder what should i do with the originals? i'll never use them again ~

how's that for an answer?

[Vark]

how's that for an answer?

Admirably succinct, though I would very much like to know why you think CMBN transcends CM1 so completely that you will never again play it.

[c3k]

Vark,

I started with CMBO. I was stunned. CMBB was the beast that I'd dreamed about since I was a wee lad holding a Panzerblitz box in my hand. CMAK was the required purchase to feed the compleatist in me.

When CMSF came out, it was a radical departure from the modeling in CMBO/BB/AK. I had far less interest in modern warfare than in Eastern Front WWII. I purchased CMSF because, well, I wanted to see what BF.C would produce. I have never played CMBO/BB/AK since. And I'm happy with that.

CMBN is the next evolution. I have rarely played CMSF since CMBN has been on my hard drive.

If you like to play battalion and higher, then squad-sized "counters" are the scale that would probably work best. That'd be CMBO/BB/AK. But, if you like battalion and smaller, then CMBN is where it's at!

The key to the one-to-one modeling is the instant replay. I zoom around the battle and see so many incredibly detailed actions occurring in every 60 second turn, it is hard to describe. In fact, I won't try. If you don't zoom in and watch your guys, then you're missing most of what makes CMBN so great. It's up to you to decide which game matches your style of play.

The demo's free. Give it a shot once you get your new rig.

I hope you like it.

Ken

[Pak40]

I agree with Sarge. CMBN is far superior to CMx1. The minor annoyances with the game are just that, minor. And it seems that most people are quick to forget that CMx1 had many minor annoyances and limitations, just of a different nature than CMBN.

[c3k]

Here's a recent thread highlighting what I mentioned: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=102593

[sburke]

Vark sooner or later you are just gonna have to make up your mind. You've been on this forum long enough to know if you ask a question, you'll get 25 opinions from 18 people.

You've played the demo and I have to assume you liked it enough to hang in here all this time. The game is great and it is only getting better, so buy the dang thing and stop depriving yourself. There's my 2 cents. ;-)

I pre-ordered CM and CW and the only regret I have is not having enough time.

[Sarge]

Admirably succinct, though I would very much like to know why you think CMBN transcends CM1 so completely that you will never again play it.

as A co said... CMx1 is a game... CMx2 is a simulation.

in the CMx1 games, even putting aside the simplification of 'game/sim', you had some things like 'next target' command, in which all you had to do was click on your unit and it would show you what it could see/shoot.

CMx2 doesn't have that - YOU have to decide the best target- and if your unit doesn't have spotting, your unit won't even SEE the target!

CMx1 has a feeling of being at a higher command level.. Regimental at least.

CMx2 you feel more like a Company Commander.. or Platoon leader, or squad leader (all said above, just paraphrasing) the thing is that feeling can change - in your gut- as you watch the action unfold, or issue orders... sure you still have to go unit to unit to give orders/move etc... but as you do, the association WITH that level of unit, just melds into your subconscious.

CMx1 i would often issue orders and had no empathy for the units i was sending into a dangerous (stupid) area... it didn't matter - TO ME...

CMx2 it matters.. i FEEL it. i associate with the men (all 12 in the US squad) - would i do this if I was the Sq leader? HOW would i do this if i was the Platoon Lt?

now.. add to that the way the terrain has been remodeled. it feels right.

CMx1 there were a lot of 'edges'.. tops of ridges, small knolls, etc...

CMx2, it is rolling terrain - it looks real, it feels real.

did i mention it FEELS? that's the difference to me. immersion -

Main Entry: absorption

Part of Speech: noun

Definition: total attention toward something

Synonyms: captivation, concentration, engagement, engrossment, enthrallment, fascination, hang-up, holding, immersion, intentness, involvement, occupation, preoccupation

and i don't even work for Battlefront!!

i've been gaming since the early 70's.. did the board games, miniatures, sand table. wrote my own rules - researched everything i could get my hands on...then put it all away as opponents faded.. along comes CMx2 and its back -and better than anything i've played.

[slysniper]

CM was a better game, CMBN is a better simulation. But I much prefer CMBN now because CM doesn't present new sights, new problems and new rewards.(As a game system I mean- sure CM will always have new scenarios and new opponents, but not new dynamics). Even the difficulties of CMBN which you've read about on the forums are at least interesting to try to work around to win the battle- and in the long run your opponents have to deal with them as much as you do.

CMBN is harder to play, less smooth, presents more friction, and more stumbling blocks. Casualties are more dismaying. Trying to get enemy troops in your sights is more frustrating. But it's interesting in a different way. There's more to learn. It's good.

There's no guarantee you'll like it, but if you can afford the price it would be a shame not to try it.

I like how you have put this. Agree in many ways.

CMBN is by far the best thing out there, but not because of its ease to play, but because of the challenge it is to play.

As for the whinning that happens, My take on that is, if they did not like the game, they would not be posting here to begin with. But for many, the only hope for seeing the game maybe take a change in the future to something more to what they like is to gripe. The site has far too long focused on the negative instead of the positive threads. So many wanting to try to get attention to their cause will keep trying to point out the weakness of something so that BF will get tired of listening and change it, it really does not work that way. but many never stop trying. Including me at times.

For me , there is nothing even close to this game as for what I am looking for when it comes to play. But everyone is not me either, I know I am not the norm, not for gaming anyway.

[Vark]

Thanks for all the replies, the real selling point, for me, is the repeated use of the word challenge, like a good little Lutheran I will suffer the ordeal of CM2, for the good of my gaming soul. CM1 was fantastic, but in truth has become a little jaded, no longer mental champagne but a reliable ale. Time to crack open the bubbly again and just hope it is not sparkling wine.

As for whingers, embrace them, as we used to say in sales, an objection is an opportunity, it is the silence you fear!

Once again this forum has provided mental stimulation and escape from a world I am beginning to seriously dislike, where image is all and substance is treated with barely concealed derision.

[Holien]

where image is all and substance is treated with barely concealed derision.

You will find that CMBN has loads of substance and despite the flaws it is the only game (simulation) to play. Truly a steep learning curve and you do get punished far more than CM1 if you don't take it slowly.

I am just waiting for the module to see what has been fixed and how it will play differently....

[dieseltaylor]

Why, what is the problem? I did get a little suspicious about the robustness of the M4 but wondered if my judgement had been clouded by too many 70's-80's games.

Vark

When it arrived CMBN tanks were capable of incredible accuracy when firing on the move [ a very rare occurrence] and this I believe was corrected somewhat in version 1.01. The other things are reverse speeds are unreal and the change of gears does not exist. Then there is the rocking motion on the tracks for things like the Tiger and the movement of the chassis when firing. Given the amount of film of WW2 tanks I was left with the impression that CMSF tank characteristics had been imported.

So if you think the game is realistic and immersive it is quite a shock to find such major ?!!?**. Does it make the game a duffer. No but it makes me wonder about design decisions : )

I think it should be bought if you have the spare cash. The graphics for the scenarios is great.

Now is it a great game which is a separate kettle of fish. It is no longer beer & pretzels. Its like enjoying paint-balling in a wood and then being told you are now going to be playing in a bunker. Walls to hem you in and short range bloodiness and pain. An experience for sure. : )

It will be interesting to read your feelings in a months time Vark ! : )