Hiding

[Ted]

GaJ brought up a point in a previous thread about hiding units not "peaking" to see whats around them.

I was wondering about the same thing.

I had a bazooka team behind a hedgerow next to a crossroads. I check the LOS, set a covered arc, give the "Hide" command and prepare to ambush any vehicle driving by.

Only I find out the next minute they can no longer see the crossroads not 20 meters away!

I guess when they hide they don't peak do they.

Just wondering what everyone, other than setting an ambush for an enemy within just a few meters of a units hiding spot, use the hide command for?

[Erwin]

When I move/hunt/run a unit into an unknown but safe-looking new position I will usually make them HIDE at the end, just in case an enemy saw them. Then UNHIDE next turn. (I play WEGO pretty exclusively.)

The other time is when I have a lot of troops waiting, I would HIDE almost all except for a couple of the best small teams with binocs to keep an eye out, thus providing the fewest men for the enemy to spot and shoot at.

[Broadsword56]

Hide is to really hide -- to lie down and take cover, not to ambush or shoot. Hide is essential to an ambush before the enemy arrives in the vicinity, so your ambush team doesn't get spotted first. But then you have to manually "unhide" your ambush team at the right moment to spring the trap. One challenge is timing this "unhide" moment. The other challenge is spotting: When your team is hiding they also don't see as well. So they could miss the approaching enemy or get ambushed themselves. But this is the same dilemma soldiers have in real life. One solution: Have another team (preferably one with binoculars and the power to call in artillery), not on "hide" but keeping still and in good concealment, with LOS into the ambush zone. This team should be as far away as possible from the ambush while still able to see it clearly. Now you have a better chance of seeing the enemy first and knowing the right moment to ambush. Is this gamey "borg-spotting?" Not in my opinion, if the spotting and ambushing units are within, say, visual or voice range (which you'd want anyway to keep the ambushing unit in command if the spotting unit is its commander). Soldiers used all sorts of whistles and signals on the battlefield to alert each other -- the Germans in Normandy reportedly imitated cuckoo calls to signal each other.

[Erwin]

I love it - the CUCKOO command - given by a nearby unit to a HIDE unit so that it springs up and throws grenades at anything it sees (enemy hopefully).

What other similarly useful commands can we think up?

For us Brits we could have TEA BREAK. Whereupon all Brit action ceases while they sit down and spend 5 turns having a cuppa.

For Jerry, it could be the SILENT NIGHT singing break, whereupon... well you get the idea.

And don't get me started on the EyeTies...

[Vanir Ausf B]

One solution: Have another team (preferably one with binoculars and the power to call in artillery), not on "hide" but keeping still and in good concealment, with LOS into the ambush zone. This team should be as far away as possible from the ambush while still able to see it clearly. Now you have a better chance of seeing the enemy first and knowing the right moment to ambush. Is this gamey "borg-spotting?" Not in my opinion, if the spotting and ambushing units are within, say, visual or voice range (which you'd want anyway to keep the ambushing unit in command if the spotting unit is its commander). Soldiers used all sorts of whistles and signals on the battlefield to alert each other -- the Germans in Normandy reportedly imitated cuckoo calls to signal each other.

That may work fine in real-time, but in WEGO the enemy unit can move completely through the kill zone in 60 seconds.

What this game needs is a return of the Ambush command from CMBO.

[Sgt Schultz]

There is already an Ambush command and behaviour present in CMBN.

Too bad for you that it is not available to Puny Humans.

It is an AI Group Order choice, and it works rather well.

Set it at the distance required, and when someone trips that wire, bad things happen.

How does the AI say nyaa nyaa nyaa in Binary?

-

[barrage]

I have noticed, at least at the squad level, there is peeking during hiding. I set up an ambush with a hiding squad and set the covered arc. When the enemy troops crossed the covered arc the squad unhid and executed the ambush. I was watching beforehand, at various times a soldier peeks up to see what is going on.

[akd]

Yes, units do spot briefly while hiding, but they will not expose themselves over the top of linear cover to do so. They stay low behind walls, hedgerows, etc. Troops peaking over walls would be particularly easy to spot.

[barrage]

I think I set up my ambush behind at least some low bocage...

[Cymru]

What we need is a "Whack-a-Mole" setting.

[Sgt Schultz]

No Cy, what they want is a "BE a Mole" setting.

pop up ... kill ... pop down.

-

[black_prince]

I tend to use hide when I'm expecting a whole load of shells or mortar bombs to come screeaming in any second. Havn't tested it but I'm pretty sure it increases survivability a little bit. I also use hide if I'm waiting in a close quarters ambush as hiding units are harder to spot than if they were just using a target arc.

[MG TOW]

Well do you want the Sgt Schultz Hide command: "I see nothing..... I hear nothing."

Or do you want the Arte Johnson Hide command: German observing intently from behind the bush and says " verrry interrrestink"

[GreenAsJade]

You've nailed it. They implemented Sgt Schultz. I want Arte Johnson...

GaJ

[Michael Emrys]

They implemented Sgt Schultz.

Barrage's statement above would seem to contradict that.

Michael

[GreenAsJade]

Sgt Schulz on one minute boundaries

[SelfLoadingRifle]

I don't have too much problem with the hide command. I am assuming that it simulates soldiers with their heads well down doing their best to preserve life and limb. My real problem is with the algorithm Battlefront uses whereby infantry units are spotted whilst in cover. It can be incredibly frustrating when a unit you have placed in good cover such as a building, woods or hedgerow with a shortened arc of fire is spotted first and opened fire on by units advancing in the open at range. I know from real-life that when an infantry soldier is in good cover, preferably in shadow he is incredibly difficult to spot. He can see what is going on around him whilst remaining unobserved until he reveals his position by opening fire. This is even more the case when he is properly cammed up.

SLR

[c3k]

^ This is well put.

[scottie]

i find CMBN takes much more skill to play it well in WEGO mode compared to REAL TIME regarding timiing and 10s of these little idiosyncrasies that it just isnt as fun .... despite the benefit of being able to replay the action in detail. What we need is a pause rewind option in REAL TIME mode IMO. (granted for AI games only)

[Steiner14]

The much worse self preservation capabilities of hidden units, at least for WEGO, IMO was a showstopper for me.

Just rush with a fast unit through expected defense lines and until the player can react a whole minute later, with only a bit of luck, the aquired intelligence will show big parts of his devensive plan.

This behaviour forces players to micromanage even more. Grrreat...

[shocker28]

In WEGO has anyone thought to hide followed by a pause command and then to time an attack command to set ambush?? just a thought.

[YankeeDog]

In WEGO has anyone thought to hide followed by a pause command and then to time an attack command to set ambush?? just a thought.

Doesn't work unless you want the unit to move as its first action of the ambush, which you usually don't want. Usually, you want a unit to just pop up and start shooting from where it is as the first step of an ambush. You can't do this with HIDE + PAUSE + TARGET, all set on the same waypoint, the unit will immediately start to execute the TARGET order, regardless of the PAUSE.

[Michael Emrys]

Doesn't work unless you want the unit to move as its first action of the ambush, which you usually don't want. Usually, you want a unit to just pop up and start shooting from where it is as the first step of an ambush. You can't do this with HIDE + PAUSE + TARGET, all set on the same waypoint, the unit will immediately start to execute the TARGET order, regardless of the PAUSE.

I see the problem. Would HIDE+PAUSE+CHANGE FACING+TARGET be a workable compromise?

Michael

[Mord]

I think you'd still need a move order in there or the facing would begin on the hide order.

Mord.

[YankeeDog]

I think you'd still need a move order in there or the facing would begin on the hide order.

Mord.

Correct. Combat orders like TARGET and FACE are always executed immediately, as soon as the unit reaches the relevant waypoint, without regard to PAUSE orders. So you need to have an intervening movement order of some kind (thereby creating two waypoints) in order to seperate them. In fact, if you issue two combat orders such as TARGET and FACE on the same waypoint, the second combat order will simply cancel and replace the first one.