sburke

to BF and the playtesters - Whenever you feel ready please take a bow so we can continue our applause. Job well done.

better watch that, a bit of owsley's best and you might find yourself moving your mouse just looking for butterflies in the meadow and forgetting- oh right I was playing CM.. "Hey will you look at that?!"

I still feel this is kind of Apples to oranges. I played both CMSF and CMBB/CMAK as I prefer the WW2 period, but wanted the engine of CM2. Everytime I'd open up CM1 games it was always with the feeling that I can't wait for the day ww 2 is on CM 2. CM1 just doesn't allow you to employ tactics as realistically as CM 2. The side effect to that design change is a graphical major leap ahead. I noted this incident in an earlier post where I had a PF team take out a sherman. The turn started with one of the team members gunning down an engineer breach team. His buddy then took out the sherman and the two of them gunned down the crew as it bailed. There is a synergy here to the 1:1 design of CM2, the ability of individual team members to target different objects and the icing on the cake is the graphical quality which played out like a directed scene in a movie for me. That is worth the $60 I plopped down and then some. It isn't that I have to have that level of detail, but you gotta admit, it is just so darn cool. I don't think that it means the graphics have been prioritized, but they take advantage of what already exists in the engine. CMSF also didn't play on MACs. granted side issue, but it did impact some players not going to Cm2. I don't mean to harp on this nox, and I realize MP is important to you. I am not trying to say that MP is a dumb request or anything along those lines, I am just questioning the stance that the "majority" want what you want. There is nothing wrong with having a desire, but you can't just keep repeating that it is what the majority want and assume because you say it that it becomes true. I am not assuming that is not true just because of what particular items I want in the game, but because the guys who are running the business say so and I have to assume they know their customer base well enough to know what makes sense to prioritize. We can disagree with them about that, but in the end it is their business, they disagree and they don't want to risk what they feel is a functioning system that allows them to do what they want and keep getting paid for it. Hard to argue with that.

Sighting was much more organized and realistic. I mean just line up a bunch of squads and watch the heads doing the organized - front, R side, front, L side observation as specified in FM 92 "Correct observation of enemy positions".

my wife thinks it is the Hwy to hell....

CMBN the Dark side of the moon of games.

Same here and in just the little bit I have been playing the demo I have had so many of those moments that I can't wait to get my hands on the full game.

Yeah well that was the problem. Once you realized that if you did get spotted, you could pretty much run away and the guards would all reset, it lost that immersion factor. It kind of required a suspension of belief in a way and setting your own standards of play- say for example if I am spotted at all, I lose. It didn't live on my hard drive anywhere near as long as the CM games. I only gave up CMAK now that CMBN is coming out. It was interesting in it's day though.

I actually did play all the thief games. They were in fact some of my favorite games of all time, however that was partly because they were so unique. The graphics may not have been that good but honestly, neither was the AI. Still they were a blast. However this wasn't a disagreement over game engine versus graphics. CMBN has both. The issues was MP versus graphics and that is a completely different discussion. Again you are claiming to speak for the "vast majority", I don't see that reflected in the posts though. Instead I have seen repeated statements of the quality of the graphics and the immersion that then brings in the game. Maybe I am just seeing them because they agree with my own views, but by the same token, maybe you aren't seeing them because it doesn't jive with yours. Either way apparently BFC feels that the majority of the people who represent their base like em or they likely wouldn't have spent the time.

Can you define most people as honestly I can't say the response on the forums has shown most responders being upset about this. I do see a very very vocal few. Nothing wrong with that, but to assume the mantle of a "silent majority" needs a little more data. I for one don't see this as the hot button item and I do like the graphics and no I don't purchase call of duty (and I am a looong way from high school unfortunately). Those graphics are really important to those of us who like the immersion factor in WEGO (and have been constantly cited on the forums). RTS style inherently leaves you unable to appreciate the detail in the same way, but that doesn't mean others of us do not like them. Personally I think your dismissal of the graphic quality basically says to the vast majority of posters that what we like doesn't matter. In the same vein an insistence that somehow the MP portion is what the majority wants is simply an assertion. BFC is not going to change their business model off that. This has worked for them for over a decade and sales indications from what they have seen will allow them to continue in this direction. Don't try and do a Babu on BFC and have them open an Indian restaurant.

I believe it will, Normandy had quite a bit of rain that summer so there should be plenty of potential for mud. You'd need a response from the beta testers to know for sure. I believe I have heard them mention the potential for track damage in the bocage but can't be certain.

Yeah I agree though I really am hoping folks will ignore you. You really do waste too much of everyone's time on every forum you log into. Don't get it, but if this is how you get off... You might want to consider dating... no I mean girls. And yes it was expected you would hate it.

Except the part about anchovies. I am pretty certain that it was sardines.

Yep, see this is the true story. Steve and those guys HATE computer games. They actually don't even really have a game, the demo is just a hash of some stuff they threw together. They don't play computer games nor do the beta testers. Instead they simply watch the forums giggling maniacally as we fret like 9 year olds waiting for our red ryder BB rifle. Ahh sweet mother of god are they ever enjoying this thread. Oh yeah and what you get for pre order is a cool metal box! Now how pathetic do we sound? Like Charlie Brown on halloween...I got a game, I got a PC, I got a ...box.

As with a couple other game issues that have been cited it would look like we would need a little more data before reaching any conclusions. I have had this happen a couple times in both CtG and BtB. In Busting the Bocage the panzershreck team that took out the tank then proceeded to gun down the crew in the same turn. Later an American Tk crew came rolling into the sunken lane surprising the handful of men I had left defending the line there. They managed to make the closest landser cower before the other 3 gunned em down. In CtG the couple of German crews that managed to reorganize to attack the town didn't last much longer than the amount of time they were in sight. I do find it more than a little funny though that after all this there are human players who are doing the same as the AI. Maybe there really isn't anything wrong with the AI and it is PERFECTLY emulating human player behavior. :-P Personally I agree, crews from destroyed tanks should high tail it to the rear, but I don't know how that would affect being able to dismount to scout or being able to remount a team that had simply bailed a functional vehicle. I would prefer to keep those and the fanatical behavior rather than lose them.

My tank crews (German or American) have not fared so well. I understand the programming issue as to why they attack and yes historically it is inaccurate, but if Steve, Charles and the gang felt trying to correct it would just create more issues than it would help, I'll just chalk it up to desperation on the part of the AI. It certainly hasn't had much impact on the game for me. I am learning to be a lot more wary of artillery in general. In Closing the gap I took out both Panthers with artillery while my armor sat behind the ridge waiting for an opportunity. Once the Panthers were gone it was all over for the Germans, between my artillery and armor they never stood a chance. Historically I think that situation is pretty accurate. A human player however wouldn't sit still while artillery rounds walked there way up to your most precious item. :-P Lesson for both I think is, if you want to avoid the artillery- close with the enemy. I will say this for the landser, they put up a darned good fight in Bocage and have the weapons for it, great handheld AT and lots of MGs. If you can set up some good lateral lines like a sunken road to reinforce positions it can be deadly for the Amis.

Thanks worth a shot and somewhat embarrassingly obvious. :-P what can I say I got hung up in the hedgerow and lost my glasses..... that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

LOL the first time your panther cruises into range and finds that Granny armed with a Bazooka.... (Uncle Jed, Granny keeps stealing my bazooka!) :-P I am actually struggling with this as well, I want to hunt another tank I know is nearby and I can't hunt as there are other known units about and I don't want to just issue another form of movement as odds are I will get burned. I haven't found the happy medium there yet. Any of the playtesters want to comment on tactics that might work here?

Just please please please, no one post a pic of Lady Gag me

I won't and can't say what you have seen isn't true and again I just wish everyone would take it down a notch. I saw the title to this thread and frankly avoided it for quite some time and then figured eventually you see some really good stuff in it once the initial flames die down. As to not getting a reply from BF, well they are pretty busy on the game and the number of threads popping up on items is pretty high. Part of it may be that perhaps BF feels they have already answered it enough times. The engine is actually quite old now just not this theater/period. As an alternative to just putting controversial (and I would actually not consider this thread title controversial, I would include it under the insulting category to be honest) titles on threads is to simply PM the BF folks direct and ask if they can put a sticky up with a succinct reply even if it is just a link to a previously stated case. Where I think you are seeing some of the reaction on this particular items is again the engine isn't new, the particular feature has not been part of it and there is a certain feeling of -"stop trying to rain on our parade, the feature hasn't been here for 4 years and isn't specific to CMBN - do your research and comment not on CMBN, but on the CM2 engine - elsewhere." I am not saying that is necessarily correct or helpful, but there are many many comments about the game that reflect a lack of research on the commentator as if they have found some brand new glaring hole. If I was completely brand new to this product I would have spent quite a bit of time looking at forums on CMSF and trying the demo before I would plop down $60 on a pre order. Kick the tires as it were before complaining my car is an automatic and I wanted a stick AFTER I order it.

Patience on all sides would probably be a very good thing. Titling a thread "BF you blew it" is sure to incite a reaction and probably blew from the start any ability to have a calm reasonable discussion unfortunately. Respect goes both ways, if you want the beta testers to be reasonable then don't just spit in their faces and act like they have no cause to feel slighted. We are all human here. While I don't have as much interest in RT (though due to some of the posts an AARs I have been trying it, I just really love going back over a turn and watching the drama unfold) I can understand there are a large community who do and pausing would facilitate their enjoyment of the game. Case closed - a reasonable request based on a way to enhance their enjoyment of the product. Whether it is actually capable of being programmed I haven't the foggiest notion. What I did do is a search on the forum (because that is my pet peeve, very few people think to look up what has already been said- what a buddy of mine refers to as the 15 second rule - why spend the time if it only takes me 15 seconds to ask you...I hate it.) to see if I could find a post that would clarify from BFs viewpoint why it was not included in a succinct manner. I am sure something is out there and if anyone knows the link it would be greatly appreciated as it would add a rational presentation to what has become an increasingly irrational thread. What I did find and has me chuckling away is the following. Yes it is off topic, but it is enlightening to see the kinds of reactions BF has to deal with in responding to some of our more um heated discussions.

That would be outstanding. Have played with the CMSF editor quite a bit and learned a lot through simple trial and error, but my satisfaction level is not quite what I think it could be. Really appreciate all your efforts to help us get the most out of CMBN.

Medication wearing off again? We told you to refill the prescription!

One of the conspiracy theories out there says Rommel deliberately built the Normandy defenses the way he did in the hopes the allies would figure out how to use the material in just this way. Umm no I really am kidding, but how long before I get quoted as a source in wikipedia? "Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information." Michael Scott

Don't get me wrong, occasionally I would love to wipe my PC just to completely clean it of all the garbage it collects. The internet is roughly comparable to the space beneath my refrigerator except I can roll out the refrigerator and clean it out periodically. I just find that figuring something out helps me understand how it works better. This knowledge in turn I can build on to help improve my whole experience. Just formatting it removes the ability to learn from the experience. All i have learned is how to format and I picked that up back last century.