Things in ASL that aren’t in CMx2

[coop_71]

Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) was the original inspiration for Combat Mission, but obviously CM became something much more.  With fog-of-war, better LOS modelling, and so on, CM can do a lot of good things that ASL can’t.  There are some things your cardboard heroes can do in ASL that your pixeltruppen can’t do in CMx2.  Some would be good features to add, and some wouldn’t.  Here’s a list of things I thought of, with my comments:

 

Ride in boats: There were tons of contested river crossings in WW2, and now that CMBS has amphibious BMP’s, this seems like a logical feature to add to CM’s WW2 games.

 

Climb cliffs:  I don’t know how often ASL players have their guys climb cliffs, because there’s little fog of war, and they’re sitting ducks while they do it.  However, it’s an option.  It might be a more viable tactical option in CM, because of its stronger FOW, but this is such an oddball thing for heavily-laden combat soldiers to attempt that it can be left off.

 

Parachute and land in gliders:  Given the rarity of battles where soldiers land and immediately start fighting, I think this can be left off CM.  It would make for great visuals, though.  If Battlefront wanted to include gliders, maybe landed gliders could be terrain objects?

 

Fire starshells and flares at night: In the pre-night vision days, defenders needed to spot infiltrating enemy somehow.  This would be a good artillery mission and unit action (Fire flare or illuminating round) to add for night battles, and WW2 night battles could be more realistic and exciting.  Also, trip flares could be a new fortification.

 

Get lost at night: ASL has a way for units to get lost at night.  CMx2 could allow units’ destination to wander.  Maybe if it takes a unit longer than a minute to complete the order, there’s a chance (depending on equipment, experience, etc) of having the destination or waypoint move.  Obviously, inattentive players would suffer more than players who carefully watch their units.  Either possibility is fine (you could have an inattentive or attentive battalion commander), and would be a realistic way to highlight the difficulties of night operations.  

 

Enter cellars: The standard ASL rules have cellars as places tanks can crash down to if they enter a building.  Cellars are fleshed out in ASL’s urban fighting historical modules. There are plenty of WW2 accounts that mention waiting out artillery barrages in cellars or basements.  Units could trade near-invulnerability (a shell crashing into the cellar is bad) for a lack of LOS.  Of course, if an enemy unit occupies the ground floor, the cellar-dwellers will either surrender or die.  I think this would be a great improvement for CM, especially for Siegfried Line battles.

 

Move in sewers: This is a stereotypical part of Stalingrad fighting.  I don’t think this is a necessary feature to add, since it happened in one battle (maybe during the Warsaw uprising too?), and wasn’t a key part of CM-scope fighting.

 

Dig foxholes:  It wouldn’t be a bad idea to let units dig shallow foxholes in the middle of a battle, but I don’t think it’s necessary for CM.  I think a wider variety of foxholes would be better.  Aside from regular foxholes, there could be shallow foxholes, foxholes with overhead cover, and water-logged concrete foxholes.

 

Use captured equipment: This can be done in ASL, and there are penalties for use of captured equipment.  I think it’s unrealistic for units to pick up discarded enemy equipment and immediately begin to use it.  There are plenty of examples of countries using previously captured (and repainted) AFV’s and guns, and that’s easy enough to set up in CMx2’s scenario editor.

 

MG or gun malfunction: This is in ASL, and it was in CMx1.  I don’t remember the pros and cons of the arguments around including this effect, but used realistically, could make CM a little better.

 

Cavalry, motorcycles, bicycles, and skis: Soldiers using any of these modes of transportation would dismount to fight.  An exception would be early war cavalry charges, which weren’t only executed against German tanks!  Any of these would make for neat visuals, but would mostly be for a nice flourish rather than a key game play feature.  Still, directly modeling skis seems required for the eventual Winter War game.

 

Aerosans:  Aerosans are the propeller-driven snowmobiles used by the Soviets.  Some were used for transportation, and some armored combat models were made.  Although it would be cool to see a NKL-26 charging Germans, spitting fire, and towing four skiers behind it, they were used more for raids, recon, and light combat than typical CM battles.

 

Prepared Fire Zones: A few ASL scenarios allow a player to place Prepared Fire Zones on the map, which effectively cut down trees or brush.  This can be simulated in CM by the scenario designer during map design.  However, players can’t adjust the map during setup.  Allowing players to modify the map before the scenario starts would be a neat way to add variety to popular scenarios or quick-battle maps.  Whether it would be worth the programming effort is another question, and I assume it would be difficult, for a relatively small payoff.

 

Factory:  A factory in ASL is a tall building that doesn’t have a second floor to climb up to.  Depending on the era, this could be any building (warehouse, theater) that has a tall ceiling.  I think this would be a nice addition to the terrain palette.

 

Co-op Play:  There aren't any specific rules for this, but there's no rule saying ASL has to be a one or two-player game.  Obviously, the odds of this feature making it into CMx2 are very low.

 

I'm sure, as Steve has said a few times, Battlefront already has their upcoming features mapped out, but there are a few good things on this list, and a few fluffy ones too.

[Battlefront.com]

Advanced Squad Leader (ASL) was the original inspiration for Combat Mission,

Not true That's been debunked about a billion times, but it keeps coming back so you're certainly not alone in thinking this. So I'll take a couple of secs to set the record straight again.

The fact is that neither Charles nor I have ever played SL or ASL. therefore it is impossible for us to have been inspired/influenced by it. The original inspiration for Combat Mission was Avalon Hill asking Charles (I was a "consultant" at the time) to make a tactical combat game that would use the ASL name for marketing leverage. Their first attempt at reviving the brand name was Close Combat and it too was not based on ASL (though I think it might have started out that way more than Combat Mission. I forget!). The reason being that the game did not lend itself well, at all, to virtualization. I know of what I speak because I was there when Combat Mission was born (cocktail napkin with Guinness stain on it, I kid you not).

...but obviously CM became something much more.

Now that much is true Though to be fair, CM was always designed to be more than ASL. Which is why we never entertained the idea of making a computerized version of ASL.

OK, here's my thoughts on your thoughts...

With fog-of-war, better LOS modelling, and so on, CM can do a lot of good things that ASL can’t.  There are some things your cardboard heroes can do in ASL that your pixeltruppen can’t do in CMx2.  Some would be good features to add, and some wouldn’t.  Here’s a list of things I thought of, with my comments:

 

Ride in boats: There were tons of contested river crossings in WW2, and now that CMBS has amphibious BMP’s, this seems like a logical feature to add to CM’s WW2 games.

Yup, and CMBO had it as well. I don't know when this feature might get added, but I do see it as being logical that we do.

 

Climb cliffs:  I don’t know how often ASL players have their guys climb cliffs, because there’s little fog of war, and they’re sitting ducks while they do it.  However, it’s an option.  It might be a more viable tactical option in CM, because of its stronger FOW, but this is such an oddball thing for heavily-laden combat soldiers to attempt that it can be left off.

This was one of ASL's more "gamey" features. Definitely not something we should spend time on.

 

Parachute and land in gliders:  Given the rarity of battles where soldiers land and immediately start fighting, I think this can be left off CM.  It would make for great visuals, though.  If Battlefront wanted to include gliders, maybe landed gliders could be terrain objects?

Yup. As for Gliders, we looked into adding them for CMBN Base Game and then later on for Market Garden. There's too much work involved in having something that big behave consistent with the rest of the game. So we ditched it as it's a very, very, very limited part of tactical combat. Gliders were used in something like a half dozen operations for the entire war and fighting that involved Gliders (i.e. tactical map size) could probably be counted in hours. Definitely not worth the development resources.

 

Fire starshells and flares at night: In the pre-night vision days, defenders needed to spot infiltrating enemy somehow.  This would be a good artillery mission and unit action (Fire flare or illuminating round) to add for night battles, and WW2 night battles could be more realistic and exciting.  Also, trip flares could be a new fortification.

Yes, starshells and flare pistols is definitely something we want to add.

 

Get lost at night: ASL has a way for units to get lost at night.  CMx2 could allow units’ destination to wander.  Maybe if it takes a unit longer than a minute to complete the order, there’s a chance (depending on equipment, experience, etc) of having the destination or waypoint move.  Obviously, inattentive players would suffer more than players who carefully watch their units.  Either possibility is fine (you could have an inattentive or attentive battalion commander), and would be a realistic way to highlight the difficulties of night operations.

This has been discussed. It's a very legitimate concept, but it quickly runs into many practical issues which a paper/dice game didn't have to struggle with. We've not thought of a clean way to implement something like this. It would also apply, incidentally, to fog, heavy rain, heavy snow, and other adverse weather conditions. 

 

Enter cellars: The standard ASL rules have cellars as places tanks can crash down to if they enter a building.  Cellars are fleshed out in ASL’s urban fighting historical modules. There are plenty of WW2 accounts that mention waiting out artillery barrages in cellars or basements.  Units could trade near-invulnerability (a shell crashing into the cellar is bad) for a lack of LOS.  Of course, if an enemy unit occupies the ground floor, the cellar-dwellers will either surrender or die.  I think this would be a great improvement for CM, especially for Siegfried Line battles.

It is a tricky thing to pull off due to our 1:1 battlefield portrayal.

 

Move in sewers: This is a stereotypical part of Stalingrad fighting.  I don’t think this is a necessary feature to add, since it happened in one battle (maybe during the Warsaw uprising too?), and wasn’t a key part of CM-scope fighting.

Yup, and the abstracted system we had for CMBB wasn't all that great.

 

Dig foxholes:  It wouldn’t be a bad idea to let units dig shallow foxholes in the middle of a battle, but I don’t think it’s necessary for CM.  I think a wider variety of foxholes would be better.  Aside from regular foxholes, there could be shallow foxholes, foxholes with overhead cover, and water-logged concrete foxholes.

Like CMx1, CMx2 is focused on supporting a particular type and sized battle, though it supports a wider range. Long battles are not what CMx1 or CMx2 were designed for, and that's what digging in is most applicable to.

I hit the max quotes allowed so this is the end of part one.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Part two.

Use captured equipment: This can be done in ASL, and there are penalties for use of captured equipment.  I think it’s unrealistic for units to pick up discarded enemy equipment and immediately begin to use it.  There are plenty of examples of countries using previously captured (and repainted) AFV’s and guns, and that’s easy enough to set up in CMx2’s scenario editor.

Yup. We didn't feel it was wise to encourage the use of foreign equipment. Sure, it happened, but for any one particular thing it is usually an anomaly and/or very small scale. That's outside of CM's intended scope. Where it isn't we do try to offer direct support.

 

MG or gun malfunction: This is in ASL, and it was in CMx1.  I don’t remember the pros and cons of the arguments around including this effect, but used realistically, could make CM a little better.

This comes up from time to time and usually I see people giving this one a "meh, not really important" conclusion. I'd like to see it too, but agree it's not at the top of the list of needs for CM.

[

Cavalry, motorcycles, bicycles, and skis: Soldiers using any of these modes of transportation would dismount to fight.  An exception would be early war cavalry charges, which weren’t only executed against German tanks!  Any of these would make for neat visuals, but would mostly be for a nice flourish rather than a key game play feature.  Still, directly modeling skis seems required for the eventual Winter War game.

Motorcycles involve totally new coding that we don't feel is worth the investment. Even the Kettenkraftrad requires a lot of new code to support it. These vehicles were mostly used for support purposes and, therefore, can be skipped for the most part. Earlier war the Germans used them as standard mounts for recon troops, so that's going to be an issue for us when we get to it. Horses are a nightmare to even consider, so they aren't ever going to be considered

 

Aerosans:  Aerosans are the propeller-driven snowmobiles used by the Soviets.  Some were used for transportation, and some armored combat models were made.  Although it would be cool to see a NKL-26 charging Germans, spitting fire, and towing four skiers behind it, they were used more for raids, recon, and light combat than typical CM battles.

Yup. Cool, but not really what CM is designed to portray.

Prepared Fire Zones: A few ASL scenarios allow a player to place Prepared Fire Zones on the map, which effectively cut down trees or brush.  This can be simulated in CM by the scenario designer during map design.  However, players can’t adjust the map during setup.  Allowing players to modify the map before the scenario starts would be a neat way to add variety to popular scenarios or quick-battle maps.  Whether it would be worth the programming effort is another question, and I assume it would be difficult, for a relatively small payoff.

It is definitely something that would be nice to have. But it would require quite a bit of effort to make it work.

 

Factory:  A factory in ASL is a tall building that doesn’t have a second floor to climb up to.  Depending on the era, this could be any building (warehouse, theater) that has a tall ceiling.  I think this would be a nice addition to the terrain palette.

We have that in CMRT already.

 

Co-op Play:  There aren't any specific rules for this, but there's no rule saying ASL has to be a one or two-player game.  Obviously, the odds of this feature making it into CMx2 are very low.

The will is definitely there! We talked about doing this for CMx1 and it was part of the first draft for the CMx2 engine. Just too much work for it to be viable. Dang it.

 

I'm sure, as Steve has said a few times, Battlefront already has their upcoming features mapped out, but there are a few good things on this list, and a few fluffy ones too.

Yes and no. We have endless lists of things people want in, as well as our own. Some of them stretch back to CMx1 days! The list is constantly in flux. Stuff that people said "we have to have this or we'll die of boredom" back in 2002 that we still don't have probably aren't nearly as important as people thought back then. Others, on the other hand, keep coming up as suggestions year after year. Which means some things get on a list then fall to the bottom, others kinda stay at the top. We try to remain flexible.

Steve

[mirekm61]

I added the entrenched position of guns (see CMX1) and camouflage fixed tanks and guns when buying units.

Triggers with function if

And one more thing a detailed report after finishing the battle, with a list of teams  status, ammunition, morale etc. with possibility to transfer these units to the next battle (scenario).

Help in organizing companions.

[coop_71]

Steve, thanks for your comments.

[Baneman]

This has been discussed. It's a very legitimate concept, but it quickly runs into many practical issues which a paper/dice game didn't have to struggle with. We've not thought of a clean way to implement something like this. It would also apply, incidentally, to fog, heavy rain, heavy snow, and other adverse weather conditions.

Perhaps rather than the destination "wander" you could simply have it take longer.

eg. currently a unit will re-gather at a waypoint before moving on the next leg of their movement.

So if it's dark/snowing/etc. add invisible waypoints to a movement order so that midway through a movement order leg, a squad would re-gather before continuing, thus simulating the usual gathering to discuss "where's that hovel ... oh we're still 30m short" sort of thing.

[slysniper]

The climb cliff suggestion.

 

Well its not perfect, but designers have figured out a work around where you can climb cliffs, I know I have played a Normandy beach battle using it.

 

For all intents and purpose it works and does it in a way that it somewhat represents the challenges of such a task.

 

Such as the exposer, the funneling effect and the fact that its like a bridge and you need to create bridgeheads as you reach the top and spread out from single point access area.

 

So even if its not going to be addressed, there is a way of doing it presently

[slysniper]

_{The only surprise reply from Steve is about Gun malfunction not being on the list of things that should be done.}

 

_{That is a factor that is very real in combat and very common. Who cares about players not wanting it, that has never been the design point has it, just because players don't want the feature, at least that is how he has talked in the past.}

 

_{malfunctions impact outcomes of battles, and any unit that is in heated battle and is overusing its weapon should be risking  likely malfunctions.}

 

_{I will not go into how many times I have seen glowing barrels on weapons.}

 

_{Anyway, its the one feature that ASL did right in having it impact play and it is about the only game that has ever done it.}

[RockinHarry]

It is a tricky thing to pull off due to our 1:1 battlefield portrayal. Steve

1 : 1 battlefield portrayal....

yet there are already a number of abstractions in the game (windows and doors in buildings, are not quite 1:1, as well as is interiors..) and there´s room for some more IMO. Going underground in 1 :1 surely is a tricky affair and with regard to cellars I could envision a variation of CMX1 "sewer movement", where units are abstractly cached to somewhere outside the exterior 3D game world. An assortment of buildings could receive an "enter basement" option, where units could be cached away in order to receive (limited) protection and maybe morale benefits from any uncomfortable actions (HE chucking) above. A heavy direct hit by high angle HE fire might KIA or MIA the cached unit by dice roll, as would collapsing the whole building above.

Possible direct combat with enemy units above would be the more tricky part IMO. If the small battle is an isolated one with just the cached unit in the cellar and an enemy unit in 1st floor, then combat resolve can be abstracted as well, with very high chance of quick surrender of the unit in the basement.

But raises a number of questions:

Can the cached unit hide and by chance avoid direct combat?

Can it move out, while yet beeing undetected?

Can an enemy unit enter the basement same time, not aware of an opposing unit down there?

What happens in multiple engagements with units within and outside the building?

...

Requires a set of restrictive rules (while cutting some realism) to get some these situations resolved in satisfactory manner.

At last it will all fail if 1 :1 battlefield portrayal will be kept the way it is.

Another method to preserve 1 :1 portrayel could be to add a small game within the game (like interior and exterior cells in games like Fallout, Skyrim and the like), that temporarily leaves the normal game to resolve a combat situation that can´t be otherwise portrayed within the normal 3D environment. Candidates for this could be combat in any interiors, close combat (hand to hand combat), close assaults on tanks and the like. The player could be informed live about any such "special events" about to happen and given the choice to temporarily switch to this isolated 3D module (while freezing or extrapolating the outside 3D world), OR keeping the abstractions for these events (if implemented), while continuing the game normally.

I see this all is stuff for game engine 10.0, while thinking about it more, but it´s fun.

[borg]

Can't the Gliders be present as flavor objects - even though not used as a means of transport in real time during battle. The use of gliders might be limited, though Historical battles happened using them, and I'm sure there were a few lying around burning or used as a CP. what the heck, perhaps one can enter it for cover same as one storey building ?

I played scenario operation dead stick - with pretty wording glider1, 2 and 3.. Who knows how it'd look like as discussed above. It can also contain ammo, where one can enter to 'acquire' additional equipment and ammo.

[Holman]

Well, it's gotta be said:  ASL scenarios have a full OOB list right there on the scenario card.

 

WHEN, STEVE, WHEN??

 

[Pak40]

Yes, starshells and flare pistols is definitely something we want to add.

 

 

Thank goodness. I've been wanting this for a while.

 

Steve, can you confirm or debunk the night time LOS issue that some people seem to have during setup? There was a thread about it last week. See post #10 by Muzzleflash. I haven't had time to test it myself.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Pak40

[Boomkow]

I hope we continue to see increased support for QBs, especially regarding the AI. Anything to help is always welcome.

[akd]

Cellars played such a huge part in urban combat in NWE and Italy, I really wish we could get them in the game. I don't think they necessarily need to be abstract either, as you can almost achieve them using the current terrain deformation system.

Small, covered fighting positions are another big gap, also achievable I think with a bit of fudging of postures and models.

[slysniper]

I was trying to recall, but did not someone make a cellar in a sense already by deforming the map and putting a normal building on it, then having its base level below the grade around it.

Of course, there likely was issues with troops getting in or out. But I don't know. I just remember the person showing some screenshots here what he was doing.

[Battlefront.com]

Thank goodness. I've been wanting this for a while.

Possibly 16 years since it was a big request back in CMx1 days The old game system was utterly incapable of simulating artificial illumination because lighting wasn't simulated and Borg spotting existed. CMx2, however, is inherently capable of it, though the execution of it is still a bit tricky to pull off. Hence why it hasn't happened yet.

 

Steve, can you confirm or debunk the night time LOS issue that some people seem to have during setup? There was a thread about it last week. See post #10 by Muzzleflash. I haven't had time to test it myself.

This seems very familiar to me, but I don't remember what past discussions turned up so I've asked the testing lads to remind me.

 

 

I hope we continue to see increased support for QBs, especially regarding the AI. Anything to help is always welcome.

My response to the ASL stuff was specific to that list. Our list, on the other hand, is vastly larger and it does include all kinds of things on it. No worries about QBs being left out of the mix.

Steve

[Boomkow]

Possibly 16 years since it was a big request back in CMx1 days The old game system was utterly incapable of simulating artificial illumination because lighting wasn't simulated and Borg spotting existed. CMx2, however, is inherently capable of it, though the execution of it is still a bit tricky to pull off. Hence why it hasn't happened yet.

 

This seems very familiar to me, but I don't remember what past discussions turned up so I've asked the testing lads to remind me.

 

 

My response to the ASL stuff was specific to that list. Our list, on the other hand, is vastly larger and it does include all kinds of things on it. No worries about QBs being left out of the mix.

Steve

 

Thanks for the reply Steve. Didn't want to make another thread or bother this one from its ASL discussion.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Boomkow

[Sailor Malan2]

"ASL - World War 2 as seen in the movies"

 

Nuff said...

[Battlefront.com]

Cellars played such a huge part in urban combat in NWE and Italy, I really wish we could get them in the game. I don't think they necessarily need to be abstract either, as you can almost achieve them using the current terrain deformation system.

Small, covered fighting positions are another big gap, also achievable I think with a bit of fudging of postures and models.

 

Yup and yup.

"ASL - World War 2 as seen in the movies"

 

Nuff said...

Heh... I think a lot of ASL guys cringe when they see comments like this, but there's some truth to it. The game was designed, first and foremost, to be entertainment. So is Combat Mission. The difference is a paper/dice game has a lot less flexibility when it comes to how it entertains, which in turn forces design decisions that otherwise could go in a different direction.

Steve

[delliejonut]

This seems very familiar to me, but I don't remember what past discussions turned up so I've asked the testing lads to remind me.

 

 

I believe I can help with this. From the moment you load a game in the setup phase, the clock starts ticking in realtime. So basically, if a scenario was scheduled to start at 4am, and you spend 4 hours setting up, the sun will be in the 8am position. As soon as you hit the red button the time reverts to 4am. The problem is that while you're setting up, your LOS gets better and better in realtime; or conversely worse and worse, if the sun is going down.

[Sequoia]

As I recall, after Hasbro bought Avalon Hill they released a horrible computer game call Squad Leader where part of the game was reading the letters the boys were sending home.

[delliejonut]

As I recall, after Hasbro bought Avalon Hill they released a horrible computer game call Squad Leader where part of the game was reading the letters the boys were sending home.

 

I first read that as "As I recall, after Hasbro bought Avalon Hill they released a horrible computer game call Squad Leader where the game was reading the letters the boys were sending home."

 

LOL

[Sequoia]

One thing I always wanted to ask. ASL had smoke grenades.  CMX1 had no smoke grenades. The manuals for those games said this was due to no evidence of smoke grenades being used in combat other than as markers for friendly aircraft etc. Obviously this has changed in CMX2. Was this based on new evidence or simply added because Shock Force had smoke grenades and the beta testers lobbied for their inclusion in WWII games?

[Battlefront.com]

One thing I always wanted to ask. ASL had smoke grenades.  CMX1 had no smoke grenades. The manuals for those games said this was due to no evidence of smoke grenades being used in combat other than as markers for friendly aircraft etc. Obviously this has changed in CMX2. Was this based on new evidence or simply added because Shock Force had smoke grenades and the beta testers lobbied for their inclusion in WWII games?

One of the interesting aspects of WW2 research is that even after 60+ years and thousands of books written about it, there's still research to do! The use of smoke grenades in WW2 is not very well documented in most accounts of tactical combat. So we were initially very hesitant to include it in Combat Mission. But as time went on we more-or-less sided with the counter argument that nations made millions of these grenades, they were definitely issued on a limited basis, there was doctrine for their usage, and obvious practical benefits when used wisely... ergo they were probably used We needed it for modern warfare and since that was the first game for CMx2, the capability was included from the get-go. Seemed really obvious that the function should be retained when we returned to the WW2 timeframe.

Steve

[sburke]

I was trying to recall, but did not someone make a cellar in a sense already by deforming the map and putting a normal building on it, then having its base level below the grade around it.

Of course, there likely was issues with troops getting in or out. But I don't know. I just remember the person showing some screenshots here what he was doing.

Broadsword did that for our La Luzerne battle, but it didn't quite pan out.  Your units don't get good visibility from any type cellar windows and in addition artillery will just create a big hole from it.  It also created some odd pathing problems, but it was fun trying it.