noob Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 In a game im playing at the moment i ran a platoon across some open ground and when they got within 25 meters of the smoke rounds i was putting down from some Shermans they took casualties as though it was HE that was being fired, i lost two men from each squad and numerous wounded Did this happen in reality or is it a bug ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 I believe that the US smoke rounds are simulating White phosphorus.. nothing you would like to be in contact with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yup smoke comes from WP - burny. Also the round the WP is in would hurt if it hits. If I recall there has been some discussion about smoke rounds and their effect on dismounts. Could have been it was over in CMSF where popping and firing smoke is de-rigour to avoid being totalled! Oh I'm devastated for your guys loss A few less Amis to mow down as you human wave my positions 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 In a game im playing at the moment i ran a platoon across some open ground and when they got within 25 meters of the smoke rounds i was putting down from some Shermans they took casualties as though it was HE that was being fired, i lost two men from each squad and numerous wounded Did this happen in reality or is it a bug ? The smoke rounds from the Sherman were White Phosphorus which is a bursting round that will cause serious burns to anyone caught in its spray. This is modelled in BN, even though the smoke generation is modelled as though it's a base-ejection type. So yes, this is what would happen in reality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Ok, thanks, as usual with CM one learns the hard way 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noob Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Yup smoke comes from WP - burny. Also the round the WP is in would hurt if it hits. If I recall there has been some discussion about smoke rounds and their effect on dismounts. Could have been it was over in CMSF where popping and firing smoke is de-rigour to avoid being totalled! Oh I'm devastated for your guys loss A few less Amis to mow down as you human wave my positions Well someones got to inflict casualties on my men, and as you aren't i might as well 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlie Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 cool. dose that mean i can smoke out trenches and stuff and kill the people inside with the smoke? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 cool. dose that mean i can smoke out trenches and stuff and kill the people inside with the smoke? HE will still be more effective I believe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 But if you intend to put down a curtain of smoke anyway, you might as well burn a few Krauts in the process. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailApe Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Anybody know how long the undesirable effects of WP persist for? So if Bowlie wants to do a bit trench clearing with WP, how soon can he send his crunchies in without them getting BBQ’d? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.kehoe Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I have it on excellent authority - from my father who lead an 81-mm mortar platoon in Normandy - that WP was a favored means of clearing Germans out of their defense positions, particularly in tree lines where tree bursts could occur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 you might as well burn a few Krauts in the process. Good advice regardless of the circumstances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I have it on excellent authority - from my father who lead an 81-mm mortar platoon in Normandy - that WP was a favored means of clearing Germans out of their defense positions, particularly in tree lines where tree bursts could occur. too bad we have little of it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 But not all smoke rounds are WP - only the M4A3 wet storage ones carry them as far as Shermans go. And WP is pretty nasty, but I keep taking casualties from non-WP smoke rounds. I have no idea, did non-WP have an explosive charge in them to spread the smoke? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I suppose somethings got to pop somewhere 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I learned this one the hard way, too. I thought it was regular smoke (didn't check the panel info). I ran a platoon in just behind the smoke and lost...10 guys! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 But not all smoke rounds are WP - only the M4A3 wet storage ones carry them as far as Shermans go. And WP is pretty nasty, but I keep taking casualties from non-WP smoke rounds. I have no idea, did non-WP have an explosive charge in them to spread the smoke? They are not bursting shells, but still dangerous: Zinc chloride smoke is grey-white and consists of tiny particles of zinc chloride. The most common mixture for generating these is the zinc chloride smoke mixture (HC), consisting of hexachloroethane, grained aluminium and zinc oxide. The smoke consists of zinc chloride, zinc oxychlorides, and hydrochloric acid, which absorb the moisture in the air. The smoke also contains traces of organic chlorinated compounds, phosgene, carbon monoxide, and chlorine. Its toxicity is caused mainly by the content of strongly acidic hydrochloric acid, but also due to thermal effects of reaction of zinc chloride with water. These effects cause lesions of the mucous membranes of the upper airways. Damage of the lower airways can manifest itself later as well, due to fine particles of zinc chloride and traces of phosgene. In high concentrations the smoke can be very dangerous when inhaled. Symptoms include dyspnea, retrosternal pain, hoarseness, stridor, lachrymation, cough, expectoration, and in some cases haemoptysis. Delayed pulmonary edema, cyanosis or bronchopneumonia may develop. The smoke and the spent canisters contain suspected carcinogens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Lots of valuable info here. Can someone summarise: - It seems like any smoke round, tank or arty, will burst doing damage, right? - Is it safe to run through smoke after the round has popped? - Are there some smokes that are OK and others that aren't? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I'd say, while the barrage is in progress you run the risk of being KO'd by the falling rounds (anything falling from height will hurt you). It would be safe to run through a "normal" smoke screen but perhaps not a WP one, unless it was drifting. HC or normal smoke will only choke you and give you cancer in 30 years time. WP will burn the flesh from your bones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 did non-WP have an explosive charge in them to spread the smoke? HC smoke (non-WP) used a base ejection system rather like tear gas. But I'm not entirely sure what in the game might be firing HC smoke. 75mm Shermans are exclusively firing the 75mm WP 'artillery' round. From all I can locate 76mm/3inch shells didn't field a WP smoke round. I understand one M10 unit in Normandy did someting very 'creative'. They 'borrowed' a batch of bootleg Navy 3 inch star shells, mated them to the correct shell casing then used them to good effect as direct fire incendiary rounds. :eek: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I tried to find in the manual different commands for poppning smoke or WP (if available), but found none. Is it basically situational and decided by the TacAi which to use? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Okay, had a chance to run a few quick tests. Heres the skinny on SMOKE rounds in CMBN: 1. There appears to be two types of SMOKE rounds in CMBN: a general SMOKE round and the WP rounds. As it should, the WP seems to generate smoke much quicker, which also lasts longer. 2. Do not assume that all Shermans have WP - in reality only the M4A3(75)W Early and Mid have them, all other Shermans (including 105's and 76's) have normal smoke rounds. The M8 HMC also has WP, as does the US 81mm (on-map or off) and offmap 4.2in mortars. Everything else, including all German rounds, are normal SMOKE rounds. 3. In CMBN, WP is definately deadly, as it should be. Dont overlook those shells in your Shermans. In my quick tests, I was seeing casualties against prone, hiding troops in the open up to 125m away. 4. In CMBN, normal SMOKE is also deadly - at times it appears more deadly than WP. Even against prone, hiding troops in the open, normal SMOKE rounds were also causing casualties up to 100m away. And these are instant casualties - not from moving from the smoke or prolonged exposure to the smoke. After this quick test, I wonder if there is a bug with how normal SMOKE is working. For instance, make a quick test and drop a single 105mm artillery normal SMOKE round in the middle of about 100 dispersed men moving in the open - so this isnt some extreme test where you have 100 guys stuffed into two action spots. A realistic, dispersed skirmish line of squads and support troops. A single 105mm normal SMOKE artillery shell lands somewhat in the middle of these moving troops with the following results: 1 KIA (brown base), 6 WIA (red base) and 4 light wounds And that was not one squad that it landed on top of. One of the light wounds was 130m away. I can imagine that a 105mm artillery shell of *any* type would cause all sorts of rocks and debris to go flying in every which direction, and any of these could be lethal to exposed troops. So I do agree that some casualties could be possible from normal SMOKE rounds. But up to 130m away? Didnt troops follow 100m behind a rolling HE artrillery barrage? Anyways, as it stands right now, keep the following in mind: 1. Not all smoke rounds are WP. 2. Both normal SMOKE rounds and WP rounds cause casualties - lots of wounds of all types, not just one guy dropping. Up to over 100m away. Dont fire anywhere close to your own troops, especially large artillery smoke. 3. Smoke grenades do not cause casualties or suppression as far as I can tell. Hope this all helps. Chad 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 I tried to find in the manual different commands for poppning smoke or WP (if available), but found none. Is it basically situational and decided by the TacAi which to use? No vehicle or artillery asset has both normal SMOKE and WP - they have one or the other. So if you use the TARGET SMOKE command, they will fire whichever one they have - SMOKE or WP. If you use the POP SMOKE command, that is the various smoke mortars, smoke pots, or smoke handgrenades that units have - there is no danger to anyone from the POP SMOKE command. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 That's some awesome info, Chad. Thanks for testing that. It looks to me like there is a bug with WP as well as normal smoke. No way should WP be injuring guys 125m away. It almost looks like smoke is getting HE blast values. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 Also maybe its just me, but 80mm WP doesnt seem to produce much smoke at all, even a light wind will move away 8 rounds worth of WP in 3 or 4 minutes. or is this realistic and im complaining for no reason? if so fair enough 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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