Slow Artillery Response

[SgtGold]

Ok, I know that WWII artillery wasn't hooked into a modern FDC type setup, but 11 minutes for a US unit to call in 105's? On board mortars taking four minutes to start a fire mission? These times are aren't even close to reality, even WWII reality. Why the slow artillery?

[Renaud]

Trp's are your friend. Time then becomes 1-2 minutes or so. Any decent company defensive position that's had at least a few hours preparation should have registered at least a few trps.

To minimize the spotting time, use dedicated fo's or the most sr. Commander you have on the field. Also the experience of the spotter is important, possibly also the experience of the called battery.

[Magpie_Oz]

I'd reckon 11minutes is a pretty generous time to call in an unplanned fire mission, a hell of a lot goes on between "80 this is 20 Fire Mission over" and "Splash over"

Check this out, a lot of info but in amongst it is a stack of gold on WW2 Yankee Arty

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM6-40.pdf

[MikeyD]

Actually, I'm surprised by that 11 minute time. I rarely go beyond 6 for the U.S. side and that's usually a long wait for me. Is your spotter the most incompetent [-2] officer on the map? Are you playing Iron mode? To me playing Iron is like intentionally hitting your thumb with a hammer just for the thrill of the sensation.

[WineCape]

Indeed, too many variables amiss and unknown parameters you don't mention and just your conclusion "that it takes too long" -- not quite helpful. As mentioned, are you using FO's, are you using other units lower down the command chain to call in arty, quality of calling units etc etc.

I have never waited 11 min+ for 105mm FFE in all my hours of testing and play. But then, I bet my parameters to call in 105mm arty differs starkly from yours.

If all is hunky dory and it's not an opening barrage and non-TRP arty, you should, on regular 105mm FO's, hardly wait more then 6-7 minutes. It's the hunky dory part that's amiss in your arty call.

[BigJ62]

First post since 2007 and arty is too slow - LOL.

[ParaBellum]

Some of the artillery seems a bit slow. I just had to wait 8 minutes for a 4.2" mortar barrage called in by a veteran FO.

[TheVulture]

Some of the artillery seems a bit slow. I just had to wait 8 minutes for a 4.2" mortar barrage called in by a veteran FO.

That seems like a long wait for 105mm (going from my in-game experience, not form real life about which I am largely ignorant). Check that FO you are using has a good match up with the artillery unit (there are those coloured circles and triangles that indicate how well matched they are; I'd guess that e.g. a dedicated mortar FO from the same formation is the best, and an artillery FO from a different formation is worse). And that the artillery unit is ready - the line of green/red dots show that. I don't know if they have changed somewhat since CMSF (where they indicated some unspecified 'preparedness' status) but it used to be the case that more red dots indicated a longer wait for the mission. IIRC the CMBN manual or comments from Steve here suggest that the dots represent (amongst other things) barrel temperature, which affects rate of fire. At any rate a battery that has just finished a shoot is unlikely to be poised to fire off another one immediately; there are extra delays.

[scottie]

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM6-40.pdf

wow that's scarily complicated. Its a wonder it was ever on target at all with so many variables.

[Boche]

First post since 2007 and arty is too slow - LOL.

Should we form the "Arty is too dam slow party"?? jajajaja

[Lt Belenko]

First post since 2007 and arty is too slow - LOL.

Besides all that, he missed the thread on lurkers a few weeks before the release.

JUST FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS FROM FM6-40:

(1) French aiming circle.-(a) He subtracts the announced

Y-azimuth from the declination constant of the

aiming circle (adding 6,400 to the declination constant if

necessary).

( He sets the remainder on the azimuth and micrometer

scales of the aiming circle.

© He releases the compass needle and centers it with

the lower motion. After clamping the needle, he lays each

piece reciprocally on the aiming circle (par. 57).

(2) American aiming circle, M1916.-(a) He measures the

magnetic azimuth to the base piece and to this magnetic

azimuth adds the declination constant of his aiming circle.

( He subtracts the announced Y-azimuth from this sum

(adding 3,200 if necessary). The result is the firing angle

for the base piece, using the aiming circle as an aiming point.

© He commands: AIMING POINT, THIS INSTRUMENT

NO. 1 (base piece), DEFLECTION (SO MUCH) (as determined

in ( above).

(d) He then sets this announced deflection on his aiming

circle and lays on the base piece.

(e) He then lays the other pieces reciprocally on the aiming

circle (par. 57).

[YankeeDog]

wow that's scarily complicated. Its a wonder it was ever on target at all with so many variables.

Ya; and back then they had to do it without GPS, guesstimating location via line map, doing all calculations with pen, paper and slide rule (and looking up a bunch of stuff in tables), and communicating all the information via vacuum-tube radios.

Furthermore, and especially for calls to higher-level assets, the calls would sometimes have to be relayed through more than one radio link. The U.S. SCR-300 "Walkie Talkie" backpack radio was probably the best man-portable radio set of the war, and officially had an on-land range of about 3 miles. But terrain or atmospheric conditions could reduce this considerably. So if the battery was more than 3 miles from the FO, then the FO might have to relay the call through an intermediary. Bear in mind that even the regimental-level U.S. 105mm howitzers have a range of about 7 miles, so an FO spotting for artillery from a distance of more than 3 miles from the responding battery is certainly possible.

And it's also important to factor in the flight time for the spotting rounds. Depending on tube type and range, flight time can range from a few tens of seconds to over a minute. So for each spotting round fired, there's a substantial amount of waiting time before the FO can observe the impact point and report corrections.

If anything, the artillery response times in the game, even at Elite and Iron level, are fairly optimistic.

[Lanzfeld]

The only arty I think is too slow is when a spotter is 10 meters away from the mortar team they are spotting for (close visual) and it takes 4 to 5 minutes.

A beta tester here had a family member who was a 60mm mortarman in that era and said it should be about 30 seconds for the first spotting round and 1 minute for FFE.

The mortar is already deployed so all we need is a bearing and range from the spotter 10 meters away in the example above.

[gunnergoz]

Artillery too slow? War is he// man, get with it. If you were in Uncle Joe's Red Army you'd be happy to get artillery support two weeks after you called for it.

[YankeeDog]

The only arty I think is too slow is when a spotter is 10 meters away from the mortar team they are spotting for (close visual) and it takes 4 to 5 minutes.

A beta tester here had a family member who was a 60mm mortarman in that era and said it should be about 30 seconds for the first spotting round and 1 minute for FFE.

The mortar is already deployed so all we need is a bearing and range from the spotter 10 meters away in the example above.

Yes; I'll agree with this.

Right now the game seems to have only two types of targeting for mortars: "Direct Lay", where the mortar team can actually see the target and make corrections based on their own observation, which is (rightly) very fast, and "Radio Relay Indirect", where the mortar team is getting targeting info via radio link, and seems to typically take about 3-4 minutes for U.S. 60mm mortars, for example.

There really needs to be an intermediate step, for when the mortar fire is being called in by an observer close enough to the mortar team to relay targeting information via voice. This shouldn't be quite as fast as direct lay, but it should be a heck of a lot faster than missions called in via radio link. Right now, from what I've seen, there is little, if any, difference.

It was a common platoon-level tactic for U.S. infantry to put a 60mm mortar team just behind the point squad when advancing to contact, so that the mortar team's firepower could be brought to bear quickly. This tactic is substantially less useful if voice-relay indirect fire isn't really modeled.

[SteveP]

Just to add some support for the OP: I got 12 minute delays for the Allied 105s routinely playing Vierville. No FOs in the game, only HQs, but I got the same delay no matter which HQ I used. I didn't get worked up over this because my thought is that these guns should mostly be used for pre-planned. However, the scenario author did not think so, I guess, because there are no Support Target orders in the AI Plan.

So, if 12 minutes is too long, then there definitely is some sort of problem in the game mechanics.

[stikkypixie]

Just to add some support for the OP: I got 12 minute delays for the Allied 105s routinely playing Vierville. No FOs in the game, only HQs, but I got the same delay no matter which HQ I used. I didn't get worked up over this because my thought is that these guns should mostly be used for pre-planned. However, the scenario author did not think so, I guess, because there are no Support Target orders in the AI Plan.

So, if 12 minutes is too long, then there definitely is some sort of problem in the game mechanics.

HQs are not the best units to call in heavy artillery. The time delay is lower for such high level assets using dedicated FOs.

[SteveP]

HQs are not the best units to call in heavy artillery. The time delay is lower for such high level assets using dedicated FOs.

OK, but what's the bottom line? There were no FOs in the scenario. So either the 105s were to be used for pre-planned (which is what I think, but not the scenario designer, it appears) or flexible use but expect 12 minutes because they are HQs. Or 12 minutes is too long even for HQs. Or what?

Again, I'm not making a complaint. Just adding my experience to the OP for the benefit of anyone who might know what is reasonable to expect.

[YankeeDog]

OK, but what's the bottom line? There were no FOs in the scenario. So either the 105s were to be used for pre-planned (which is what I think, but not the scenario designer, it appears) or flexible use but expect 12 minutes because they are HQs. Or 12 minutes is too long even for HQs. Or what?

Again, I'm not making a complaint. Just adding my experience to the OP for the benefit of anyone who might know what is reasonable to expect.

I can't speak to the scenario or the scenario designer's intent.

However, as far as the verisimilitude of a 12-minute delay to "Real Life", it seems about right to me. 105mm support would presumably be coming from the Regimental Cannon Company (there are also 105s at divisional level, but let's assume the lower-level ones are what is usually represented in CM). So the six 105mm tubes in the RCC are tasked with supporting a total of 9 front-line Rifle Companies.

No FO on the map says to me that this scenario is meant to represent a situation where Regimental artillery support wasn't planned ahead of time for this particular action -- that is, the battery is not "on call", specifically tasked with supporting this particular Company, at this particular time. So the Company CO has to get on the horn with his Battalion CO, and convince him that he needs the Regimental 105s, NOW. Then the Battalion CO has to get on the line with the Regimental command, and explain that one of his Companies needs 105 support NOW, superseding whatever other calls for support (and/or planned fires) are out there.

IRL, I imagine the time from initial call to FFE would actually be a lot more variable than in CM. That is, if the Company CO has good comms with the Regimental command, has a clearly high-priority target (e.g., "I've got a Battalion of Krauts in the open!"), the Regimental Cannon Company is in place and ready to fire, and isn't busy with a planned fire or something, then the support could come in pretty quickly; probably not much longer than with an on-call battery and a dedicated FO.

In other situations, such as if the RCC has to be pulled off of another fire and shifted to the mission at hand, things could take longer. Even for the generally well-supplied U.S. forces, Artillery shells and tubes can be a scarce resource over the short term and when the fur really starts to fly, somebody has to make the call as to whose support needs come first.

But overall, 12 minutes doesn't seem too unreasonable to me as a game convention average for calling in a regimental-level asset without an FO.

[SteveP]

No FO on the map says to me that this scenario is meant to represent a situation where Regimental artillery support wasn't planned ahead of time for this particular action -- that is, the battery is not "on call", specifically tasked with supporting this particular Company, at this particular time.

Thanks. Very good answer. I think I can see where that might be a good design decision in this case, because otherwise a pre-planned barrage could unbalance the scenario.

Also, the 12 minutes was OK with me. And I saw the AI make effective use of this asset even with the delay -- specifically by using adjust fire to aim at four different targets (two of which it missed due to inaccurate fire). So, once the 12 minutes had elapsed, the time to hit additional targets was pretty low. I learned something from that: find an observation point that is likely to reveal multiple targets.

[gunnergoz]

See, SteveP, the game has you thinking in realistic WW2 tactical terms already! Who says you can't build a time machine?

[Agua]

There really needs to be an intermediate step, for when the mortar fire is being called in by an observer close enough to the mortar team to relay targeting information via voice. This shouldn't be quite as fast as direct lay, but it should be a heck of a lot faster than missions called in via radio link. Right now, from what I've seen, there is little, if any, difference.

Agree with this.

[Renaud]

+1...I noticed this on the demo scenario and created a thread (now submerged beneath tons of threads). This is the #1 thing for me right now. I loved CMBB/AK onboard mortar spotting by HQ's, used it all the time. Right now it's super slow...still worthwhile sometimes, just super slow.

[Antig3n]

Agree with this.

Me too. This is the only thing keeping me from playing in a higher difficulty. I love the artillery system in this game, but the cm x1 on map mortar system was great too. I would love to see times reduced for this specific situation. And maybe a little for the medium stuff too. Not that light and medium on map assets need to be any more powerful - they have become the cornerstone of my infantry tactics.

[WineCape]

Originally Posted by YankeeDog

There really needs to be an intermediate step, for when the mortar fire is being called in by an observer close enough to the mortar team to relay targeting information via voice. This shouldn't be quite as fast as direct lay, but it should be a heck of a lot faster than missions called in via radio link. Right now, from what I've seen, there is little, if any, difference.

This has been picked up by a Beta Tester on the relevant forum, AFAIK, just before release of the game. IIRC, Battlefront is aware of this.